I want to order new glo plugs
Anyone who has done this, what make and model number to purchase? Favorite place to buy them?
Thanks
Cliff : WHICH ENGINE ??????????????????
A thought
Having a Universal engine, I just go straight to the Kubota dealer. The price is fair and I get good quality.
Cliff the Kubota parts manuals are on the TechWiki. You can use the manual for D850 or D950 Kubota - they use the same plug.
http://www.c34.org/wikiwp/
Under the "Manuals" topic.
Punch the part number into www.messicks.com and you'll see the cost and availability. Be aware that an old part number may have been changed, but the messicks website will direct you to the current part number.
25xp
Cliff : Thanks !! Now do as Ken mentioned!!
A thought
Thanks very much
This thread prompted me to inquire whether I might need new glow plugs. I have a 1988 C34 and when I bought the boat 20 years ago, I was told to turn the key clockwise until I heard 10 beeps, then push the start button and this worked until 2 summers ago. Since then, it never starts at 10 beeps when cold but will start sluggishly after 15-20 beeps belching a lot of black smoke and eventually running smoothly. I've wondered if I have a bad glow plug or two with not enough heat to kick start the engine. It always starts easily when warm. Any thoughts are appreciated.
Brian
With the plugs heated up for 20-30 secs you should feel each tip is HOT. Hot enough that you can't keep a tight grasp.
There's a "normal" resistance value that will tell you whether the plug has pooched, but frankly I don't remember it and the above is an easy way to get a positive test result.
New glo plugs are VERY CHEAP insurance, all things considered.
Brian : You might want to look at the Ford Truck solenoid upgrade to your M25XP engine. Then you only need to keep the plugs ON for 3-4 seconds.
A thought
Thank you both. I'm ready for an easy Winter project.
Quote from: Ron Hill on November 11, 2021, 12:27:42 PM
Brian:
You might want to look at the Ford Truck solenoid upgrade to your M25XP engine. Then you only need to keep the plugs ON for 3-4 seconds.
A thought
Ron, Ron, Ron. Ok, you opened the door.
Full disclosure then, Brian:
Yes, owners can install an unnecessary solenoid/relay, solely to reduce the preheat "inconvenience" by, say (depending on the ambient temperature at the dock/mooring) some 20-25 seconds. (Or they could buy a powerboat if time is that critical.)
Yes, owners can make the system more complicated and potentially error prone than it needs to be (or was designed to be,) and install an unnecessary solenoid on their boats.
Yes, owners can disregard the glow plug manufacturer's recommendation to not over-voltage their 10-volt plugs (up to 14+ volts if a shore charger happens to be on) and install an unnecessary solenoid on their boats.
Yes, owners can disregard that Kubota installs a resistor in its preheat circuit that reduces the 12v battery voltage to the proper level, and install an unnecessary solenoid on their boats.
If owners want to do that it should be with full consideration of the (one) (1) (single) pro vs the cons. And I still say it should be a 100% continuous duty rated, 40-amp (headlight type) relay vs. a 150-amp starter solenoid. Killing a fly with a fly swatter, not a sledgehammer.
"Starter solenoids don't fail," I've heard. My tractor's starter solenoid just failed. I've never had a headlight relay fail. I've never seen a boat NOT having a relay or solenoid have a failure (except if 20-25 seconds longer is a "failure.")
Did anyone actually answer his guys question ?
NGK Y103K Universal number - 299517
Get them on Amazon about $8 each they will be at your house tomorrow
Ken : You are correct again!!! HOWEVER :
I had the Ford truck solenoid mod. on my old M25XP engine for 20 years. I believe that I probably put over 4000 hrs + on that engine during that time and never changed a glow plug!! That's alot of engine starts!!
So many of us had that Mod and NEVER had a problem!! We just didn't hold the glow Plug ON forever when we started that engine!!! 3-5 sec was enough!! :clap
A few thoughts
The following introduction is from this link: https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,10743.msg83675.html#msg83675
Not the first time KK has dismissed glow plug solenoids.
****************************
sometimes Ken just can't help himself. That'd be most of the time. He tends to uselessly repeat himself, too, and too often.
It's your CHOICE to install the glow plug solenoid. The advantage is that you can start a cold engine in half the time. Ken thinks that's unnecessary, and has explained why maybe once before, followed by his repeated dissing of the concept.
The only disadvantage I can recall is that one could possibly burn out the glow plugs if, WITH a solenoid installed, you keep them energized too long, because the voltage that gets to them is higher because the current doesn't have to run up to the cockpit panel and back down to the engine.
But that would mean that YOU, as the boat owner, just plumb forgot (!!!) that you actually installed the solenoid. How could that be?!?
In response to one of Ken's earlier solenoid diss comments, I related my actual real life experience where it came in very handy:
We'd sailed across SF Bay from the Oakland Estuary to Sausalito, and by then our engine was cold. Sausalito has Hurricane Gulch, with high winds over a break in the hills to the west, but also, just to the north of it, a band of light breeze. We were right at that point, furling our jib and dropping our main. There was a Big Boat Race going on, and there was a large group of large sailboats bearing down on us from the north and east - one of their turning marks was a since removed yellow buoy off Hurricane Gulch.
When we tried to start the engine, nothing happened. I knew exactly what it was, because ten years earlier I had replaced the start button to starter solenoid fuse holder, and had since relocated it to a more accessible spot (see Critical Upgrades). I hopped down below, opened the engine compartment and messed with the fuse holder, and asked Morgan to try to start the engine. It turned over this time, but didn't start because it was cold. By then those large racing sailboats were bearing down on us, having slid out of the dead zone and hit the breeze. We could see the bones in their teeth, a few heading right for us.
I told Morgan to hit the glow plug button for 12-15 seconds, and then the engine started right up. And we motored out of their way, close call.
Do I mind being able to start my engine faster? No.
Do I need it all the time? No.
Do I appreciate having it. You betcha.
We all recognize the help Ken's given us over the years and applaud him for that assistance. But sometimes his rants get tiresome. Perhaps he should have resisted. Sometimes those few seconds can be a real help, in the real world.
Look, it's Your Boat, your choice :D, to install one or not. Always has been, always will be. But faster starting can sometimes be necessary, and eliminating the power run up to the cockpit panel can't hurt.
PS - "Large racing sailboats" included the at least 56 (?) footer Seaward. Large understates it.
Au contraire' mon ami Stu.
I even said do it if you want, but do it knowing all the facts (which every time anyone "pushes" the mod y'all fail to disclose (ESPECIALLY to a new boat owner.). There's nothing in my disclosure that is non factual.
I even suggested a better (IMO) option than a high power 150 amp solenoid.
One could say that pushing that mod over and over and over is unnecessary. And if it's in the 101 or critical upgrades, why continue to mention the mod - isn't that the pat answer, "read the critical upgrades"? LOL.
I see, reminders are unnecessary when you see things differently, but ok when you agree (and the product manufacturer disagrees with you.). RTFM only applies when someone WANTS it to apply, I suppose.
All pertinent facts are important to boaters (ESPECIALLY new owners) not just SOME facts.
Just so it's clear that this does not have to do with my opinion of the glow plugs, but is based on fact:
From: Info
Sent: February 13, 2017
Subject: RE: NGK Y-103V glow plug question
Hello,
Thank you for your inquiry. It will definitely damage the glow plug by putting direct battery voltage to it. There is a resistor in the controller box so the glow plug only receives 10.5V. [***]
NGK Spark Plugs, (USA) Inc.|
*** NGK was referring to our engine being in a kubota tractor (i.e., battery ~12.5 voltage, not up to 14+ volts.)
Another Pro that Stu doesn't mention is that the mod eliminates high current thru a poor preheat switch. The answer to that if one doesn't want the mod is to install a proper switch (30 amp Cole Hersee not a 10a or 15a switch.)
Anyone can conjure up scenarios to support about anything - I had a fellow C-30 owner who had a burned-out "ford" solenoid (luckily it wasn't critical but he "could have been" in a situation like Stu had or worse.)
Do you have a part number for the 30A Cole Hersee switch?
Jon
Model #:M-626 BP
35a rated momentary contact switch.
A very dramatic story, but there was virtually zero chance any of those racing boats would have hit you.
Thanks Ken.
Guys : I've said it before.
There is many a time that in the middle of the night in an anchorage - wind came up - boats started to drag anchor - and I could immediately start my engine!!
That Ford Truck Solenoid Mod. paid for its self !!!!!! :D
A thought
Have to agree with Ken. With a properly working and maintained starting system there is no reason to add another solenoid.
A few seconds difference between the results? Come on Man! On cold days my engine starts with max 15 seconds pre heat
If you have dragged anchor 'many a time in the middle of the night' you more likely need to invest in ground tackle or
review anchoring procedures. No matter how many times you have said it.
>>>If you have dragged anchor 'many a time in the middle of the night'<<<
C,
With Ron's experience I ass/u/me he meant other boats dragging anchor, and yes, sure I'd want to get going asap also. But a difference of say, 10 seconds is the difference between having your shorts zipped up, or... well, use your imagination.
It' a know fact that 10 seconds is valuable "reflection/evaluation time" to decide on the best action rather than jumping into a situation immediately. See, as I said, anyone can pretty much conjure up justification/scenarios to "promote" or "dis" whatever they care to. There's no 100-percents; there's most usually gray areas.
Look, I'll say and highlight this again - I am not saying "don't do it." YBYC. I've even posted on the wiki how (IMO) to improve the mod and where/how to find those parts.
BUT, as with anything on a boat, understand all the ramifications and balance them.
The pushers of the mod never (that I recall?) disclose that it's contrary to manufacture's recommendations, flys in the face of KISS on a boat engine and wiring, and (although always sexy to install "more stuff") it is unnecessary. How many times have we been reminded that (paraphrasing here) 'There's X thousand Catalinas out there that have (insert appropriate phrase here) and they (insert sail; start; lasted; other; here) just as the manufacturer built them.'
The key is, no one prefers to hear negatives about THEIR fix or THEIR recommendation, so to enumerate downsides and potential issues is not informing members, it's "dissing." Or more often it's "You don't know our (34 foot) boats so you don't know what you're stating (or occasionally asking,) so stay in you seat and keep your opinion to yourself unless teach calls on you' (unless of course I'm agreeing with them.) LOL. That's ok, it rolls off my back just like it rolls off their back if I point out pesky facts about something. NOT.
Further non-dissing thought: no equipment is 100% fail safe. So anytime a critical item is installed think about, if it fails what do I do?
If you're not going to use what I suggest (10 second, no tool replacing it) then make sure to use #10 wire to the S terminal of the solenoid and hang a #10 wire with clips on the ends right there so you can bypass the solenoid in a matter of seconds. That will guarantee you'll never need it. That's for the old engines- if it's a B-wired engine (Westerbeke's "better idea") you're pretty much screwed if the solenoid fails because it performs more than one function.
Cliff
The glow plugs eBay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-GLOW-PLUGS-FOR-KUBOTA-B5200-B6100-B6200-B7100-B7200-B8200-B9200-G3200-G4200-/284528563725
-k
Cat 007 : "If you have dragged anchor 'many a time in the middle of the night' you more likely need to invest in ground tackle or
review anchoring procedures." ??????
I don't drag anchor and don't know what your experience is, but here's mine. I've sailed the Chesapeake and the east coast for over 30 years. During that time I have averaged 100 overnights per year on my C34. We usually anchor 6 nights and a marina the 7th (dump trash, pump out, refuel, restock, etc). That's a lot of anchorings!! I have NEVER put out a "lunch hook" I sink that baby (Bruce 35) and always start with 50 ft of chain.
I can see that you don't know what the Ford Solenoid Mod does so let me explain it to you.
The way Catalina wired our C34s is to put the glow plugs on a separate switch (1986 & 1987) or incorporate it in a 3 way key switch (1988 and subsequent production).
So the amps necessary to heat the glow plugs come from the battery compartment thru the Battery Selector switch to the key switch and then back to the glow plugs. WHAT is that distance?? 30 to 40 ft ?? (that's quite a run!!) This is only for the M25XP engine.
What the solenoid mod. does is simply open up a circuit from the starter solenoid, around the back of the engine to the aft glow plug! A distance of about 3 ft.!!!!!! If you want to include the distance from the battery compartment to the starter solenoid add another 7 ft. ?
I purposely haven't mentioned wire gage, but you can see why it only takes a few seconds for the necessary amps to travel that much shorter distance.
I've always thought that it was one of the smarter, easy to do, Mods on the M25/M25XP engine! :clap
Let me tell you that waking up in the middle of the night to the smell of diesel exhaust and the roar of engines is somewhere between scary and terrifying. You feel helpless with the power boat spot lights flashing about and you immediately start your engine as the ONLY thing you can do beside fend off with your boat hook. Hope that you NEVER have to be in that situation!!
A few thoughts
Ron
It's exactly the same wiring harness and path as 007's boat and every non-B engine in a C30. In other words he knows exactly what the path is and the unnecessary mod does.
And the precise path is from the starter solenoid B terminal, thru the harness and back to plug #3. The amps (and V loss) thru the battery cable to the B terminal and back to the battery (negative cable) is irrelevant.
What gets lost in the smoke and dust raised is, for those who want the mod (Their Boat Their Choice) it boils down to one absolute simple fact: 10 or 20 seconds is more important than heeding the manufacturer's warning and commonsense boat wiring to KISS.
It's that simple, no fluff, no supportive/justifying scenarios or obfuscation either pros or cons is needed.
Quote from: Ron Hill on November 15, 2021, 01:59:33 PM
Cat 007 : "If you have dragged anchor 'many a time in the middle of the night' you more likely need to invest in ground tackle or
review anchoring procedures." ??????
I don't drag anchor and don't know what your experience is, but here's mine. I've sailed the Chesapeake and the east coast for over 30 years. During that time I have averaged 100 overnights per year on my C34. We usually anchor 6 nights and a marina the 7th (dump trash, pump out, refuel, restock, etc). That's a lot of anchorings!! I have NEVER put out a "lunch hook" I sink that baby (Bruce 35) and always start with 50 ft of chain.
I can see that you don't know what the Ford Solenoid Mod does so let me explain it to you.
The way Catalina wired our C34s is to put the glow plugs on a separate switch (1986 & 1987) or incorporate it in a 3 way key switch (1988 and subsequent production).
So the amps necessary to heat the glow plugs come from the battery compartment thru the Battery Selector switch to the key switch and then back to the glow plugs. WHAT is that distance?? 30 to 40 ft ?? (that's quite a run!!) This is only for the M25XP engine.
What the solenoid mod. does is simply open up a circuit from the starter solenoid, around the back of the engine to the aft glow plug! A distance of about 3 ft.!!!!!! If you want to include the distance from the battery compartment to the starter solenoid add another 7 ft. ?
I purposely haven't mentioned wire gage, but you can see why it only takes a few seconds for the necessary amps to travel that much shorter distance.
I've always thought that it was one of the smarter, easy to do, Mods on the M25/M25XP engine! :clap
Let me tell you that waking up in the middle of the night to the smell of diesel exhaust and the roar of engines is somewhere between scary and terrifying. You feel helpless with the power boat spot lights flashing about and you immediately start your engine as the ONLY thing you can do beside fend off with your boat hook. Hope that you NEVER have to be in that situation!!
A few thoughts
I can only add that your experience and time on boats sounds like about 2/3 of mine :)
Maybe one time (which I can't even recall) I had to worry that 20 seconds of time difference to start an engine might have made
me pucker a little bit. And in 100,000 miles racing Ive never personally seen a racing boat hit a well seen boat at anchor.
That doesnt make you a bad person :) To each his own. Risk tolerance is subjective
https://www.kumarbrosusa.com/kubota/Kubota-Glow-Plug-D950.html
All : As Stu has mentioned Many times - "Your boat Your Choice"
A racer that anchors - interesting!! Must be alot of anchoring in that 100,000 miles !!!
A thought
There are actually very specific rules for anchoring during a race. If in a river or any place with current, anchoring can be used to hold one's place on the race course till enough wind returns enough to make VMG towards the next mark.
Quote from: waughoo on November 16, 2021, 03:46:16 PM
There are actually very specific rules for anchoring during a race. If in a river or any place with current, anchoring can be used to hold one's place on the race course till enough wind returns enough to make VMG towards the next mark.
Its true but actually not that specific and used more often than people care to.
You can anchor wherever and whenever you want if the wind dies and you want to not lose position.
The only rule is you cannot use anchoring in a kedging manner to improve your position.