I just completed the project described here on my 1989 Catalina 34.
https://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Catalina_34_Electrical_System_Upgrade
However, I did not upgrade my alternator. I decided to save that for a future project.
The goal of the upgrade was to extend the utility of my house bank since I no longer need to conserve a whole bank for starting the engine. It also addresses an intermittent starting issue I was having that seemed related to an electrical problem I just could not track down.
As I drifted off to sleep last night, thinking about the new ease of boat operation I can now enjoy, I realized the electric fuel pump is still connected to the starting battery. This is not addressed in the project write up or indicated in the diagram.
Diagram of Soliton's new electrical system
https://imgur.com/a/kDt0YzX
The pump only draws 1.6 Amps on average, while the echo charger will potentially deliver 15 Amps to the starting battery. So perhaps there is no problem here, but it is not true as the diagram indicates "Starting battery isolated and used only for starting."
Should I move the fuel pump to the house battery, or will I be fine with it on the starting battery?
PS, as a bonus, I recreated and attached the "Revised" diagram from the original article. The version on the article is impossibly small and difficult to read.
Is your AC charger 20A or is that a typo?
@P
Unless you've changed something the lift pump is powered by the same source as your panel, gauges, alarms, and blower.
Without having to decipher the upgrades, let's make it easy. What's your concern with that?
Quote from: ptidwell on September 26, 2021, 08:49:10 AM
I just completed the project described here on my 1989 Catalina 34.
https://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Catalina_34_Electrical_System_Upgrade
However, I did not upgrade my alternator. I decided to save that for a future project.
The goal of the upgrade was to extend the utility of my house bank since I no longer need to conserve a whole bank for starting the engine. It also addresses an intermittent starting issue I was having that seemed related to an electrical problem I just could not track down.
As I drifted off to sleep last night, thinking about the new ease of boat operation I can now enjoy, I realized the electric fuel pump is still connected to the starting battery. This is not addressed in the project write up or indicated in the diagram.
Diagram of Soliton's new electrical system
https://imgur.com/a/kDt0YzX
The pump only draws 1.6 Amps on average, while the echo charger will potentially deliver 15 Amps to the starting battery. So perhaps there is no problem here, but it is not true as the diagram indicates "Starting battery isolated and used only for starting."
Should I move the fuel pump to the house battery, or will I be fine with it on the starting battery?
PS, as a bonus, I recreated and attached the "Revised" diagram from the original article. The version on the article is impossibly small and difficult to read.
Congratulations on your upgrade! My fuel lift pump also runs from the starter battery with no issues.
If concerned that the stock alternator won't produce enough electricity to keep the starter battery charged with electric fuel pump draw, watch voltage while under way to ensure it doesn't drop. How many amp hours reserve does your start battery have?
A lesson learned when I added a separate start battery: Make sure nothing else is inadvertantly consuming power from the start battery. In my case, the auto pilot was pulling power from behind the cockpit instrument panel. I discovered this when I didn't see the current draw on my battery monitor.
ptid : You didn't mention which engine you have, but I'll guess that it is an original M25XP engine. The electric fuel pump should be wired so when you turn ON the key switch the fuel pump is energized!! It should be OK on the starting battery!
A thought
Quote from: Jon W on September 26, 2021, 09:34:30 AM
Is your AC charger 20A or is that a typo?
Jon, the image attached to the post is a recreation of the original from the article. That showed 20 Amp. The charger on my boat (Soliton), is a Heart Interface Freedom 10, which documents says is 50 Amp (not sure how that can be since my AC input is only 30 Amp).
I am not sure what values are most likely. Is 20A uncommon?
Quote from: KWKloeber on September 26, 2021, 11:10:48 AM
@P
Unless you've changed something the lift pump is powered by the same source as your panel, gauges, alarms, and blower.
Without having to decipher the upgrades, let's make it easy. What's your concern with that?
KW, good point, everything on the panel, plus the blower are connected the same way. I became concerned because the project documentation indicates the starting battery is used for nothing other than starting the boat. I thought I may have misread the diagrams or instructions. The responses here make me think I don't have much to worry about.
Quote from: Kyle Ewing on September 26, 2021, 02:20:22 PM
Congratulations on your upgrade! My fuel lift pump also runs from the starter battery with no issues.
Kyle that's good to hear! Did you do the alternator upgrade at the same time?
I will definitely monitor how the charging is going. The battery spec says there are 130 reserve minutes.
I am curious where you mounted your starting battery.
Quote from: Ron Hill on September 26, 2021, 02:30:56 PM
ptid : You didn't mention which engine you have, but I'll guess that it is an original M25XP engine. The electric fuel pump should be wired so when you turn ON the key switch the fuel pump is energized!! It should be OK on the starting battery!
A thought
Ron, you are correct. It is an M25XP and is wired just as you described. Sounds like I may be ok. Thanks for you input!
I would not mind updating the original article with refreshed images and any other updates the article might need. Does anyone here know how I might go about doing that?
ptid, with a house bank of 4 T105's you want your AC charger to be 40 to 50a range. If yours is 50a you're good.
When I was doing my upgrade I was given the guidance that the AC charger should be sized at ~10% of the bank it is directly charging.
I'm wondering, why do you feel you need a "starting" battery, opposed to a "reserve" battery to be used only in an emergency (the house back is down?
We're did you read that about the battery used only for starting, nothing else?
Quote from: KWKloeber on September 26, 2021, 11:10:48 AM
@P
Unless you've changed something the lift pump is powered by the same source as your panel, gauges, alarms, and blower.
Without having to decipher the upgrades, let's make it easy. What's your concern with that?
Quote from: ptidwell on September 26, 2021, 08:49:10 AM
I just completed the project described here on my 1989 Catalina 34.
https://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Catalina_34_Electrical_System_Upgrade
However, I did not upgrade my alternator. I decided to save that for a future project.
The goal of the upgrade was to extend the utility of my house bank since I no longer need to conserve a whole bank for starting the engine. It also addresses an intermittent starting issue I was having that seemed related to an electrical problem I just could not track down.
As I drifted off to sleep last night, thinking about the new ease of boat operation I can now enjoy, I realized the electric fuel pump is still connected to the starting battery. This is not addressed in the project write up or indicated in the diagram.
Diagram of Soliton's new electrical system
https://imgur.com/a/kDt0YzX
The pump only draws 1.6 Amps on average, while the echo charger will potentially deliver 15 Amps to the starting battery. So perhaps there is no problem here, but it is not true as the diagram indicates "Starting battery isolated and used only for starting."
Should I move the fuel pump to the house battery, or will I be fine with it on the starting battery?
PS, as a bonus, I recreated and attached the "Revised" diagram from the original article. The version on the article is impossibly small and difficult to read.
Quote from: ptidwell on September 26, 2021, 05:38:22 PM
I would not mind updating the original article with refreshed images and any other updates the article might need. Does anyone here know how I might go about doing that?
Yes but I've lost access so it's difficult to assist you to do that.
Maybe one day I'll regain access.
Quote from: ptidwell on September 26, 2021, 05:22:04 PM
Quote from: Jon W on September 26, 2021, 09:34:30 AM
Is your AC charger 20A or is that a typo?
Jon, the image attached to the post is a recreation of the original from the article. That showed 20 Amp. The charger on my boat (Soliton), is a Heart Interface Freedom 10, which documents says is 50 Amp (not sure how that can be since my AC input is only 30 Amp).
I am not sure what values are most likely. Is 20A uncommon?
Are you understanding electrical circuits or just following an A B C upgrade like a paint by number? You can't equate current @ 12v to current @ 120v in that manner.
50 amp output @ 12v would require 5 amp input @ 120v. That's a perfect world with the efficiency of the charger being 100%, which it's not. If it's more like 80%, the draw would be like 6.3 amps.
Quote from: ptidwell on September 26, 2021, 05:31:51 PM
I am curious where you mounted your starting battery.
I too am curious to know where you put it. I am planning this project for the winter. Present location I'm looking at is under the aft bberthdirectly aft of the footwell bulkhead.
Quote from: ptidwell on September 26, 2021, 05:22:04 PM
..............
...............
The charger on my boat (Soliton), is a Heart Interface Freedom 10, which documents says is 50 Amp (not sure how that can be since my AC input is only 30 Amp).
.............................
Yes, The Freedom 10 is a 50A charger. It charges DC at 12V 50A, which is only 5A at 120V.
Quote from: Jon W on September 26, 2021, 06:47:56 PM
ptid, with a house bank of 4 T105's you want your AC charger to be 40 to 50a range. If yours is 50a you're good.
When I was doing my upgrade I was given the guidance that the AC charger should be sized at ~10% of the bank it is directly charging.
The diagram showing the T105s and the 20A charger is from the original article. I do have a 50A charger on my boat. It would be good if the article could be updated and corrected. It was last touched in 2004.
Quote from: KWKloeber on September 26, 2021, 07:15:13 PM
I'm wondering, why do you feel you need a "starting" battery, opposed to a "reserve" battery to be used only in an emergency (the house back is down?
We're did you read that about the battery used only for starting, nothing else?
The diagram itself, near the top, describes how the switch positions work with the phrase "Battery isolated and used only for starting."
I feel the need to have a starting battery to relieve the anxiety that comes with managing the house banks to ensure I always have enough to start. Call it what you will, it is "reserved" for starting.
Quote from: KWKloeber on September 26, 2021, 07:28:50 PM
Quote from: ptidwell on September 26, 2021, 05:22:04 PM
Quote from: Jon W on September 26, 2021, 09:34:30 AM
Is your AC charger 20A or is that a typo?
Jon, the image attached to the post is a recreation of the original from the article. That showed 20 Amp. The charger on my boat (Soliton), is a Heart Interface Freedom 10, which documents says is 50 Amp (not sure how that can be since my AC input is only 30 Amp).
I am not sure what values are most likely. Is 20A uncommon?
Are you understanding electrical circuits or just following an A B C upgrade like a paint by number? You can't equate current @ 12v to current @ 120v in that manner.
50 amp output @ 12v would require 5 amp input @ 120v. That's a perfect world with the efficiency of the charger being 100%, which it's not. If it's more like 80%, the draw would be like 6.3 amps.
Not paint by numbers, but not 100% proficient either. Learning as I go. It was not clear to me which side of the circuit the 50A notation was referencing. Your explanation was very helpful.
Quote from: waughoo on September 26, 2021, 09:21:46 PM
Quote from: ptidwell on September 26, 2021, 05:31:51 PM
I am curious where you mounted your starting battery.
I too am curious to know where you put it. I am planning this project for the winter. Present location I'm looking at is under the aft bberthdirectly aft of the footwell bulkhead.
That is where I put mine. I am not very happy with the way I secured it, so that will likely be the topic of future projects.
Quote from: ptidwell
Not paint by numbers, but not 100% proficient either. Learning as I go. It was not clear to me which side of the circuit the 50A notation was referencing. Your explanation was very helpful.
Gotcha! I didn't mean that how that probably came across!
This is just IMO and no doubt are different opinions here, but I'm not sure marine electrical is one of those things to learn on the fly (without professional hand-holding anyway.)
Quote from: ptidwell on September 27, 2021, 01:48:24 PM
The diagram showing the T105s and the 20A charger is from the original article. I do have a 50A charger on my boat.
It would be good if the article could be updated and corrected. It was last touched in 2004.
Hi,
The article as written should stay as it is as was determined by the original author. I think that's only fair.
Just so you understand, the very purpose of the wiki when we introduced it was for people to contribute in a format that is more suitable for "article & picture" presentations than this daily forum.
Along with that is the welcome for anyone to be able to contribute their own material to the wiki.
I have often presented original material in the tech wiki and linked back to other valuable references, sources and resources. It seems that any update on your part could refer and link (he URL) to the helpful original article that has motivated and assisted you so much so far.
ptidwell,
I added the dedicated start battery and high output alternator with external regulator at the same time. I put the battery under the aft cabin, starboard side. I used an Optima bluetop group 34 AGM battery because I wanted something that would be completely maintenance free and that I could mount at an angle because of the hull shape.
The Xantrex echo charge has kept it alive for eight seasons. Hopefully it'll stay alive for a few more!
Quote from: Stu Jackson on September 27, 2021, 04:41:35 PM
Hi,
The article as written should stay as it is as was determined by the original author. I think that's only fair.
Just so you understand, the very purpose of the wiki when we introduced it was for people to contribute in a format that is more suitable for "article & picture" presentations than this daily forum.
Along with that is the welcome for anyone to be able to contribute their own material to the wiki.
I have often presented original material in the tech wiki and linked back to other valuable references, sources and resources. It seems that any update on your part could refer and link (he URL) to the helpful original article that has motivated and assisted you so much so far.
Stu, I think that is fair too, but Google will turn up the original and there are minor issues that could be easily corrected. For example, the diagram showing the Echo charger is unreadable. And as somebody here pointed out here, the 20A charger is likely under powered. Ideally the original author could agree to, or even make, any update.
I would be happy to compose a fresh article too, but my expertise is questionable.
I have read many of your articles, BTW, and found them all very helpful.
Quote from: Kyle Ewing on September 27, 2021, 07:53:45 PM
ptidwell,
I added the dedicated start battery and high output alternator with external regulator at the same time. I put the battery under the aft cabin, starboard side. I used an Optima bluetop group 34 AGM battery because I wanted something that would be completely maintenance free and that I could mount at an angle because of the hull shape.
The Xantrex echo charge has kept it alive for eight seasons. Hopefully it'll stay alive for a few more!
Kyle, your battery choice looks like a good one. I will likely need to upgrade mine to something like that. How did you secure the battery? Did you build something with fiberglass? This is a road I have yet to travel.
Here is a link to a thread which has a photo of how I mounted my Group 24, sealed flooded start/reserve battery.
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,10974.msg86663.html#msg86663
Kyle, is your house bank AGM?
Jon--My house bank has four flooded golf cart batteries. The voltage range of the Optima is within range of what my charger puts out.
Kyle
Thanks. Slight difference between the two on my AC charger. Maybe not a concern since the digital echo charger is feeding my reserve battery similar to you. Good to know for future replacement.
Quote from: Noah on September 28, 2021, 07:57:47 AM
Here is a link to a thread which has a photo of how I mounted my Group 24, sealed flooded start/reserve battery.
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,10974.msg86663.html#msg86663
Noah, thanks for sharing. I like the little platform you built. Do the screws go into the hull? How deep can you drill into the hull?
No screws into hull. All wood set to hull by thickened epoxy. The "rails" are removable, attached with bolts and wing nuts to base, to capture battery box in place, but once removed, it allows battery box to slide out to starboard. No top is needed due to low "headroom" there. Sealed lead acid battery is charged by Echo charger and has lived there unattended for 6+ years. Still performing well.
Quote from: ptidwell on September 28, 2021, 06:57:09 AM
Quote from: Stu Jackson on September 27, 2021, 04:41:35 PM
Hi,
The article as written should stay as it is as was determined by the original author. I think that's only fair.
Just so you understand, the very purpose of the wiki when we introduced it was for people to contribute in a format that is more suitable for "article & picture" presentations than this daily forum.
Along with that is the welcome for anyone to be able to contribute their own material to the wiki.
I have often presented original material in the tech wiki and linked back to other valuable references, sources and resources. It seems that any update on your part could refer and link (he URL) to the helpful original article that has motivated and assisted you so much so far.
Stu, I think that is fair too, but Google will turn up the original and there are minor issues that could be easily corrected. For example, the diagram showing the Echo charger is unreadable. And as somebody here pointed out here, the 20A charger is likely under powered. Ideally the original author could agree to, or even make, any update.
I would be happy to compose a fresh article too, but my expertise is questionable.
I have read many of your articles, BTW, and found them all very helpful.
Kyle Here's a thought that sometimes works depending on the extent of the edit.
If it is just minor corrections sometimes I will add a note in the text and "sign" and date it. Other times I may add notes to the text, and again sign/date it. But I don't change the original text (unless there is no obvious author and it obviously needs to be revised -- after all that's the purpose/beauty of a wiki site.) Or you could copy the original article and edit it to suit your particular project and publish it (in that case I might credit the original source.)
I could show you examples when I did that but unfortunately for the past many months I cannot link to/access the Wiki.
Thanks for the link Noah. I had seen that photo before and forgot it was yours. That is likely where and approx how I will do my start battery. Where did you mount the echo charge? I plan to use a victron Orion smart DC to DC charger.
My Echo charger is mounted inside the water heater side door.
Quote from: Noah on September 29, 2021, 01:58:13 AM
My Echo charger is mounted inside the water heater side door.
I did the same. I actually attached it to the railing that holds the center kitchen drawer in place as there is a trash receptacle attached to the door. It means I need to get down on my hands and knees to see the LED, but hopefully that will not be necessary often.
Mine sounds like it is in the same spot —not on the door—inside that compartment, above water heater.
Next question: Did you install a battery switch? If so where did you mount it?
P- 6(?) years ago I did a complete electrical upgrade. Here are some pics. Pic. 1 in my Blue Sea distribution panel. I do not use the AB/Both switch. I have a separate switch on my house bank. Pic. 2. I also have two switches in the aft cabin for my start battery. Pic. 3 . One switch is a simple off/on for engine battery. The other switch is an emergency switch that combines the two banks if required. I have never had to use that feature. Pic. 4 is my wiring diagram.
RE: Starter battery - Like few others, I relocated mine to the space under the aft cabin cushions. I glassed in 2 pieces of wood with bolts pointing up which are fastened to a base to hold the battery. Used Ipe wood since I had leftovers and the stuff is incredibly durable. The starter battery is charged via echo charger from the house bank located in the head cabinet and is charged by a high output alternator when not on shore power.
Quote from: Noah on September 29, 2021, 07:36:49 PM
P- 6(?) years ago I did a complete electrical upgrade. Here are some pics. Pic. 1 in my Blue Sea distribution panel. I do not use the AB/Both switch. I have a separate switch on my house bank. Pic. 2. I also have two switches in the aft cabin for my start battery. Pic. 3 . One switch is a simple off/on for engine battery. The other switch is an emergency switch that combines the two banks if required. I have never had to use that feature. Pic. 4 is my wiring diagram.
Noah, thanks for sharing! That is very helpful.
Quote from: ptidwell on October 03, 2021, 09:22:30 AM
Quote from: Noah on September 29, 2021, 07:36:49 PM
P- 6(?) years ago I did a complete electrical upgrade. Here are some pics. Pic. 1 in my Blue Sea distribution panel. I do not use the AB/Both switch. I have a separate switch on my house bank. Pic. 2. I also have two switches in the aft cabin for my start battery. Pic. 3 . One switch is a simple off/on for engine battery. The other switch is an emergency switch that combines the two banks if required. I have never had to use that feature. Pic. 4 is my wiring diagram.
Noah, thanks for sharing! That is very helpful.
IIRC, the entire effort is well documented in the tech wiki. Even more details than were posted here.
Noah, what type of fuse did you use on your starter battery application?
200A
Yes, but what type?
BlueSea MRBF