Engine turns over very slowly when cold and needs to be done at least twice before will start. In subsequent starts when warmed up is fine. Batteries are fully charged. I thought I would check wiring first. All looks connected but I am wondering if anyone has posted on how to trouble shoot this type of thing? Thanks very much.
Cliff, It sounds like the engine isn't "hot" enough to start at first, so consider adding a solenoid for the glow plugs. Otherwise, hold the glow plugs in longer.
Cliff : Besides the soleniod mentioned by Stu, you need to check all of your battery connection to make sure they are CLEAN and tight!!
Especially check the negative ground wire attached to the engine block (bell housing)!!
A few thoughts
I had slow crank and intermittent start issues as well.
It was definitely my engine block ground. Once I replaced that, no further issues.
the engine block ground? now all I have to do is to ID that one. any suggestions for that? Thanks
Quote from: crieders on September 14, 2021, 08:47:45 AM
Engine turns over very slowly when cold and needs to be done at least twice before will start. In subsequent starts when warmed up is fine. Batteries are fully charged. I thought I would check wiring first. All looks connected but I am wondering if anyone has posted on how to trouble shoot this type of thing? Thanks very much.
Cliff
The FIRST thing I would do is determine the voltage AT the starter (solenoid "B terminal"; the pos battery cable terminal ) and AT the battery bank WHILE CRANKING cold (obviously that takes more than 2 hands) with a reliable voltmeter. From there I could narrow down the cause.
That means an independent ground wire back to the battery to measure the +V at the starter.
Obviously if you see really rusted/corroded or loose cable lugs they need to be taken care of. But I do not start messing with things until I determine as well as possible the cause. Otherwise the end result is there could be multiple things wrong, and you never catch and fix the root cause.
Check to make sure all glow plugs are functioning by feeling the side, you shouldn't be able to hold onto them tightly. You said she turns over
slowly, so I don't think they would be problem there, but surely make "catching" easier.
During your fix up, move the battery negative cable (what others call 'ground') from the bell housing bolt to the starter bolt - your engine will appreciate that upgrade. They are both metric M8 bolts so no change is needed to the cable lug. You might need a longer starter bolt to make sure you get enough threads engaged. Play that by ear.
Troubleshoot, Troubleshoot, Troubleshoot - then fix/repair/replace.
If you have the OEM wiring, it is not robust enough to stand the test of time. Numerous connections and long cable runs will eventually cause problems somewhere along the line for you to troubleshoot time and again. Install a dedicated start battery with short cable runs to the starter.
Quote from: mark_53 on September 15, 2021, 08:41:38 AM
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Install a dedicated start battery with short cable runs to the starter.
I keep reading this somewhat misleading recommendation. Moving a battery so it is closer to the starter is just as valid as putting that battery in a central location and sizing the wire properly. The battery doesn't have to be moved if the wire is sized correctly. Of course, the further away the battery is the larger the wire. My point is that moving the battery closer is not the solution, the only correct solution IS the proper wire size for the load and distance.
It is OEM but 25 years ago or so I did have the upgrade wiring harness installed
The battery cables look good insofar as I can visualize them at the battery end end the engine end
It seems to me that the best strategy is to check out all of the connections with the meter,. The spade connection of the ground to the solenoid is not impressive, although I have tried to clean that up and replace it with a new spade connection. It is extremely hard to reach. I would like to find a better way of connecting all of those wires. I have three series 27 batteries, one of which is dedicated for engine starting via the 1-2-off control at the NAV station. However, no way will she turn over on that one battery currently
Cliff
The 1/4" quick connect "S terminal" is what I call the heat up/expand/loosen/corrode/quick fall-off terminal. It should have NEVER EVER been used on a marine engine.
There's two fixes.
There's a solenoid available that has a threaded-post S terminal. You need to replace the 1/4" QD terminal with a ring terminal. Otherwise it's a direct replacement - I have 3 in stock; $50 which is just about what the Kubota solenoid costs.
The other way is to cob up a pigtail on the oem solenoid.
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/wiki/7401
But you need to remove it to do that, so IIWMB I figure why not put in a new solenoid as long as the starter is out?
When you had the replacement harness installed was it just the Catalina Direct piece of junk or was the entire harness replaced from each panel terminal to each engine terminal?
Cliff : You haven't said it, but I recall that you have a M25XP engine ??? I put a bolt extender on my old solenoid so I had more threads - solved that problem. Go to an auto parts or battery+ store to find an extender.
The reason that we say to check that #4 ground wire on the bell housing is BECAUSE IT IS HARD TO GET TO!!! That's why it is usually the problem!! I believe that it is
well OVERDUE its 25 year check!!! By all means use your multi meter !!
A few thoughts
Cliff
A couple of points I forgot to expand about in my original post about checking V -- I forgot to emphasize that you cannot use a V meter to check for bad connections unless you are applying the load. A LOW resistance reading across a terminal or cable lug is meaningless. The meter is measuring resistance (essentially V drop and internally doing the R calculation) using a milliamp current. When you apply a starting load (that's about 10,0000 times the meter's current,) the resistance (and thus V drop) increases exponentially. So when measuring V drop across anything like a terminal, you must do it with the load applied that the circuit is going to handle.
I get Stu's point, but it depends on how you use your batteries. A nearby DEDICATED STARTING battery (which I do not recommend) needs a much lighter gauge cable than starting with your house bank (4 gauge which doesn't meet ABYC standard of 3% V drop in a critical circuit.) so a nearby starting battery is ok, but then you'll be above the required V drop if you use the house bank in an emergency. MUCH better (IMO) is to upsize the cables and use the house bank for everything, and keep a nearby EMERGENCY start battery should the house bank be down. Then you are not fiddling with the selector switch from one to the other (unless you rarely need an emergency start.)
If your symptoms are accurate, there seems to be something else going on -- V drop wouldn't change with a warm engine and have the starter motor crank faster. She would start easier/quicker being warm, but the starter should turn at the same speed. And if your 27 battery wont crank, you probably have a bad one.
Using the house two, is it possible that you're (miss)reading a quicker START UP, as being the STARTER is turning faster? Or is the starter turning the same being cold or warm, but as the battery grinds down when it takes multiple tries, the starter naturally slows down? You might have a battery cold cranking issue (not initial/charged voltage issue.) You can test for V in those scenarios to troubleshoot the cause (terminals or batteries) and then proceed to attack it.
How old are they? -- does cranking make any difference using one or two batteries? -- It could be worthwhile to have them tested for cold cranking amps and reserve capacity (or do very complete voltage tests.)
Quote from: Stu Jackson on September 15, 2021, 10:07:49 AM
Quote from: mark_53 on September 15, 2021, 08:41:38 AM
...............
Install a dedicated start battery with short cable runs to the starter.
I keep reading this somewhat misleading recommendation. Moving a battery so it is closer to the starter is just as valid as putting that battery in a central location and sizing the wire properly. The battery doesn't have to be moved if the wire is sized correctly. Of course, the further away the battery is the larger the wire. My point is that moving the battery closer is not the solution, the only correct solution IS the proper wire size for the load and distance.
Stu, all true as long as you don't mind the added cost of the heavier wire. My stingy ways include cost as a consideration to a proper solution.
Quote from: mark_53 on September 16, 2021, 03:56:14 AM
Quote from: Stu Jackson on September 15, 2021, 10:07:49 AM
Quote from: mark_53 on September 15, 2021, 08:41:38 AM
...............
Install a dedicated start battery with short cable runs to the starter.
I keep reading this somewhat misleading recommendation. Moving a battery so it is closer to the starter is just as valid as putting that battery in a central location and sizing the wire properly. The battery doesn't have to be moved if the wire is sized correctly. Of course, the further away the battery is the larger the wire. My point is that moving the battery closer is not the solution, the only correct solution IS the proper wire size for the load and distance.
Stu, all true as long as you don't mind the added cost of the heavier wire. My stingy ways include cost as a consideration to a proper solution.
OK, let's unwrap this myth, too.
Wire: for comparison, use #1 wire from the OEM battery box vs. smaller #2 from a battery location under the aft cabin.
WM price for wire: #1 - $6.99 / foot #2 - $5.79 / foot
OEM battery box to starter - 10 feet #1 wire 10 * $6.99 = $70
Aft cabin to starter 5 feet #2 wire 5 * $5.79 = $29
Difference in cost of wire is $70 - $29 = $41
Compare that to the cost of building, painting and glassing in a plywood frame under the aft cabin bunk.
It would most likely be pretty much a wash, when you include the cost of the plywood, the 2x4 supports, the fiberglass and the paint.
************
My point is this: Those who argue that it is "better" to have the starter/reserve battery closer to the starter itself are engaging in misleading information, because it is the wire size between the battery and the starter that makes it work properly, NOT the distance, and as far as cost is concerned it's pretty much equal to install a larger wire than would be to move the battery with a smaller wire.
Guys : I've posted this a number of times, but when I start the engine I give the starter all of the amps that are available. I have the main battery selector on ALL/BOTH, the starting battery ON and I've NEVER had a problem!!
A thought
Stu. Our boats are 30 years old. By now we all have differences in existing systems. What works for one may not work for another. I'm retired so my time is cheap. I agree if you have to hire someone to mount your battery and you have a clean slate to work with, choices may have been different. My preference is to use the start battery for starting. House battery for house loads. Whether you use a short run or a long run makes no difference technically as long as wire is sized correctly. Your boat your choice.
Ron. I chose not to start off the house battery. Doing so, according to my MFD manufacturer could induce a voltage spike to the MFD rendering a restart. The start battery is isolated from the house so no MFD dropouts.
My boat came w a dedicated emergency/start battery as bank 2 and a large 4x 6v as bank 1, but I still suffered from slow start under certain conditions (esp when the engine was hot) that I could not diagnose, even when using the fully charged start battery.
I replaced my engine compartment wiring harness connector strip and restripped the wire ends in the process, which improved the glow plug current and start signal.
The fuel pump and fuel gauge would still occasionally flutter, which turned out to be the engine block ground, which had a poor crimp connector and was undersized. The original #4 awg wires were copper only, not tinned.
I replaced the starter positive, alternator positive, and engine block ground with #2 awg tinned copper and high quality crimp connectors, and now absolutely everything works properly under all conditions: fast crank, quick start, and higher current flow when charging.
Quote from: jonathanc34 on September 20, 2021, 06:55:26 AM
I replaced the starter positive, alternator positive, and engine block ground
Along with lugs/cable size upgrades - it's best to NOT use the engine for the harness/panel ground because heat / terminal and fastener expansion-contraction /corrosion can cause issues. It's best to run the battery neg cable to the starter bolt (so current goes directly where it's needed), run a heavy alt neg cable to that bolt, and jumper to a buss for (harness and other) lnegative connections directly to the battery cable. It could jumper from either the starter bolt or Alt neg post.
The battery neg cable on the bell housing is not the best location.
Quote from: KWKloeber on September 20, 2021, 07:46:45 AM
Along with lugs/cable size upgrades - it's best to NOT use the engine for the harness/panel ground because heat / terminal and fastener expansion-contraction /corrosion can cause issues. It's best to run the battery neg cable to the starter bolt (so current goes directly where it's needed), run a heavy alt neg cable to that bolt, and jumper to a buss for (harness and other) lnegative connections directly to the battery cable. It could jumper from either the starter bolt or Alt neg post.
The battery neg cable on the bell housing is not the best location.
That makes a lot of sense and most likely contributed to the issues I was experiencing. I don't believe my starter has an official ground terminal.
There are two bolts and two screws on the forward side of the motor housing. Which would be best?
Would a grounding bus in the engine bay be a good option, have one place for all of the grounds to land?
Mark : Guess I don't know what a MFD induced voltage spike or MFD rendering a restart or MFD dropouts is/are?????
When C34s were new all of the cabling and contacts were tight and CLEAN, so there were no problems.
Catalina gladly installed refrigeration in our boats, but would NOT address what was really needed to support a 24/7 refrigerator!! I know because I asked Many Many times!!
A few thoughts
Quote from: Ron Hill on September 20, 2021, 02:15:17 PM
Mark : Guess I don't know what a MFD induced voltage spike or MFD rendering a restart or MFD dropouts is/are?????
:? Ron, In laymens terms, when you start the engine, If your both starting and running the MFD off the house bank, it could cause the MFD to go tits up. At least according to my instal instructiions. That's also the point of SiACR (start isolation)
MultiFunction Display - for old folks. :shock: :shock:
@jonathanc34
See the diagram.
The battery cable would go on the most accessible (outside) starter bolt, which is the same M8 bolt as the bell housing.
At a minimum, you'd have the btty cable and a jumper to a neg buss but there are two ways to do it. Cutting down on connections there is why I said one way is to pick up the harness neg at the alt neg post. Depending on how many negs you want/need to pull together to one point a buss (or blue sea "Power Post") may or may not be required.
On my 30 I have virtually everything on the port side running to a neg buss (bilge pump neg, galley and saloon lighting, four 12v outlets, etc.)
Thanks, Ken, very helpful visual.
Mark : Guess that I've never had a MFD or MFD problem because I've always had a Balmar External Voltage regulator that eliminated any of the spikes you may have experienced!!
Also all of the negative wires are gaged on the negative shunt for the Link 10 battery Monitor. I further ran a separate #8 from that gang to the DC negative buss bar on the top inside of the Main Electrical Panel.
A thought
I believe that Mark is referring to the inrush current of the start motor, not the alternator voltage regulated by the Balmar external voltage regulator in the charging system.
Quote from: Ron Hill on September 21, 2021, 02:55:14 PM
Mark : Guess that I've never had a MFD or MFD problem because I've always had a Balmar External Voltage regulator that eliminated any of the spikes you may have experienced!!
A thought
Ron, your Balmar regulates current going into the battery not current going out. You are right though, if you have no sensitive electronics to protect, then connecting to the house bank is fine.
Here is a link that explains better than I can.
https://shop.pkys.com/What-is-the-Start-Isolation-feature-of-an-ACR-for_b_40.html
Quote from: mark_53 on September 21, 2021, 03:41:19 PM
Quote from: Ron Hill on September 21, 2021, 02:55:14 PM
Mark : Guess that I've never had a MFD or MFD problem because I've always had a Balmar External Voltage regulator that eliminated any of the spikes you may have experienced!!
A thought
Ron, your Balmar regulates current going into the battery not current going out. You are right though, if you have no sensitive electronics to protect, then connecting to the house bank is fine.
Here is a link that explains better than I can.
https://shop.pkys.com/What-is-the-Start-Isolation-feature-of-an-ACR-for_b_40.html
Mark is right.
In addition to hsi link, the very concept of separating electronic loads from inrush starting voltage drop is a key feature of how to choose how you switch your battery banks. This is covered in great detail in the Electrical Systems 101 Topic in the Battery Wiring options. That's why there ARE options! :D
Mark : My Balmar has a delay so that the engine is running about 5 seconds before it allows the alternator to kick in.
Guess those with 4 Trojan Golf Cart batteries, best never start in the ALL position!!
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on September 22, 2021, 02:44:29 PM
Mark : My Balmar has a delay so that the engine is running about 5 seconds before it allows the alternator to kick in.
Guess those with 4 Trojan Golf Cart batteries, best never start in the ALL position!!
A thought
IIRC,the default for Balmar external regulators is 45 seconds. That's what my mc612 does. Of course, it's adjustable.
I don't understand the second part at all... :cry4`