Catalina 34
General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: wingman on July 12, 2021, 07:05:27 AM
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Time to replace my Lifeline AGM batteries, 2 GPL-4dl house and a GPL1400t engine start.
Deka and US Battery have been recommended as less expensive but solid alternatives.
Any experiences with these batteries or other options to consider?
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Wingman, I made those AGM batteries were I worked for several years and they are very good. The downside of 4DL batteries is the cost and weight (about 120 lbs). A better alternative are 6v Golf batteries as they have less weight per battery and more amp hours. I had the 4DL but changed to the 6V and made it easier. I would suggest your get the most amp hour batteries that you can fit.
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Shamrock has the OEM setup with 2 4D batteries. I get 5-7 seasons from the Deka batteries, change them when I can't get 3 days/night at anchor, ie no charging, running fridge, lights, keurig coffee maker and microwave. If I spent every night at a dock could probably get a few more seasons.
Check your charger that you can set/program to standard wet cell batteries.
What I understand the advantage of AGM batteries is that they will accept a charge faster. Is that important to you?
There is always a lot of discussion on batteries and how to setup and use. IMHO is that it really depends on how you use your boat. Do you sit on a mooring or at a dock with shore power. Can you sail quickly or do you need to motor to go sailing. and more considerations.
Jim
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What I understand the advantage of AGM batteries is that they will accept a charge faster. Is that important to you?
There is always a lot of discussion on batteries and how to setup and use. MHOP is that it really depends on how you use your boat. Do you sit on a mooring or at a dock with shore power. Can you sail quickly or do you need to motor to go sailing. and more considerations.
Jim
Jim's right.
But I would cut to the chase: the significant drawbacks of AGMs is that they DO NOT TOLERATE PSOC. At all.
There are a couple of AGM links by Maine Sail in the Electrical Systems 101 that you should read.
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thanks guys, but what is PSOC?
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It is either “ Philharmonic Society of Orange County (Irvine, CA) or “Partial State of Charge” you decide. :abd:
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:clap
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Wing : The other advantage of AGM batteries is that they don't self discharge (if you happen to be on a mooring w/a solar dribble charge). They are also maintenance free (sealed)
If I had a MKII C34 at first battery change out I'd get rid of the 4D size battery (bad back!!) and go to the 6V golf carts (if you need that kind of battery amp hours)
A thought
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Wing : The other advantage of AGM batteries is that they don't self discharge (if you happen to be on a mooring).
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While that may be true, what it also means is that unless they are fully charged they will be in a PSOC and will have a short life. And, if you're on a mooring, you should definitely install solar to keep whatever kind of batteries you have healthy.
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Firefly AGM batteries are not affected by PSOC and 3 of these will fit in C34 battery compartment
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Mark- How many amps are the combined bank of three Fireflies?
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Patches just updated his battery bank to firefly batteries and he is quite happy with the results.
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With 3 x 116 Ah (@ 20h) I have 348 Ah and can use 70% without killing the battery life.
Be ready to upgrade your charging setup, 120A charger would be desirable.
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I'm currently in the process of replacing 4x 6v 175ah (4x 62 lbs = 248 lbs) Powertron's (Trojan) with a single 300ah Lithium (72lbs). This is in conjunction with 2x 200w solar, and a 3000w inverter charger. Looking to be off-grid capable for a 10 days to couple weeks. I guess water will be our Achilles heel, but we can dinghy for that.
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I'm currently in the process of replacing 4x 6v 175ah (4x 62 lbs = 248 lbs) Powertron's (Trojan) with a single 300ah Lithium (72lbs). This is in conjunction with 2x 200w solar, and a 3000w inverter charger. Looking to be off-grid capable for a 10 days to couple weeks. I guess water will be our Achilles heel, but we can dinghy for that.
Be sure that battery meets ABYC, most do not, and definitely be sure the BMS can handle a 3kW inverter plus the surge.. Also be sure you fully understand how to deal with a BMS load dump.. Lot of sleazy LiFePO4 vendors out there will tell you these are “drop-in” replacements...
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Love my 3 new Firefly AGMs! With the guidance from Mainesail (and others here), and several key components purchased from him, I am running the new Engel combo fridge/freezer with (seeming) impunity. Ice!
Everything fit well in the existing Mark 1 battery compartment. Special shout out to Jon W. for his thorough "electrical upgrade" posts which helped me with design/components/layout. I use the Firefly house bank for starting as well. The 105 amp CMI alternator I bought from Rod also dropped in amazingly well, and I have been using the same belt since February with no signs of abnormal belt wear.
Battery monitor consistently shows > 95+% state of charge, without plugging in overnight. But the boat goes out 3X/day for charters and the alternator keeps up with the relatively minor electrical demand.
Patches
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Patches,
Great feedback! As time goes by, I'm starting to think the firefly set up would be the way to go for me until the LiFePo gets a bit more main stream. A sort of bridge battery bank from lead acid to lithium.
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Guys : I changed to 3 105AH AGMs years ago. I wrote a Mainsheet Tech note article on how to fit those larger batteries into a MK 1 battery compartment. :thumb:
A thought
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Firefly is more expensive, less energy dense, heavier weight, has much shorter cycles lifespan, can't charge as fast, but other than that I can't fault them.
I'm sure they somehow make sense for some owners but I couldn't rationalize it. I know the people who sell them, love them.
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Guys : FYI, Duracell make a 105 AH AGM battery. I've seen them at Sams Club and Batteries Plus!!
A thought
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Guys : FYI, Duracell make a 105 AH AGM battery. I've seen them at Sams Club and Batteries Plus!!
A thought
East Penn simply licenses the Duracell name. Those are nothing more than East Penn / Deka AGM's with a different sticker. They are the identical batteries as sold at Batteries Plus, NAPA, West Marine etc... They are not a good choice for a battery that will be deep cycled... We will only install those AGM's as starting batteries.
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Patches : I'm not too sure of your AH budget, but I cruised and annually overnighted just over 100 nights a year. I only had a small inverter for the laptop printer, but ran the Fridge 24/7. I usually anchored 6 nights a week and 1 night at a marina (dump garbage, pump out and send US Mail)!! [That's showing your age!!]
I got over about 7 years out of those 3 105 AH AGM batteries (replaced them once) and never cycled them below 70%? I also had two small solar panels that would catch the late afternoon and early morning sun !!
A few thoughts
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Guys, thanks for all the advice, update on battery project.
I considered the options discussed (golf cart batteries, lithium, etc.), but ultimately decided to keep the original setup with three lifeline AGM (2 4d house, one starter).
The PO put together a well-thought-out system with ACR, battery monitor, smart regulator, and inverter/charger and the original batteries lasted 8 years, so decided to stick with what has worked. Let’s hope the new ones, installed last week, will last that long.
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Sounds like a sound decision. Changing battery chemestry often triggers a significant upgrade of all the ancillaries which can be valuable if you need it, but the project becomes signifocantly more involved.
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1. Sounds like a sound decision.
2. Changing battery chemistry often triggers a significant upgrade of all the ancillaries which can be valuable if you need it, but the project becomes significantly more involved.
Alex,
1. Perhaps for him.
Let’s hope the new ones, installed last week, will last that long.
Remember Maine Sail's very prescient advice: Batteries don't die, they are murdered. You have a very good system, and it won't take long to learn how to use it. All the best.
2. Not necessarily. It truly depends on which "direction" you go. Wet cells to AGM require larger alternators because the acceptance of AGMs is far higher than wet cells, although AGMs are not good at PSOC. A change to lithium requires a complete re-investigation and analysis of a boat's electrical system - and I mean complete. The myth of "drop in lithium" is just that.
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Guys : With many of the Tesla autos burning up, I would think hard about which Lithium batterys I installed!!!
A thought