Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Mark Stein on June 10, 2021, 12:47:53 PM

Title: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: Mark Stein on June 10, 2021, 12:47:53 PM
Hello Fellow C34 Owners,

I hesitated to post this question knowing the extent to which the general topic is already covered within the MB, but this specific diagnostic is driving me nuts, and I can't seem to find anyone who can help identify the likely culprit.  So I'm appealing to the experts and taking a risk that while I did a thorough search of the MB to find this problem already posted, I didn't miss something.  So, here goes...

I have a 1997 MkII #1357 and had no power to the engine panel at the helm when I first tuned on the ignition while "on the hard" this spring. The engine breaker (mounted on the engine - whose idea was that?), and engine panel breaker were fine.  It turned out that wiggling the positive terminal leads on the battery resulted in the power being restored.  I assumed I had a bad wire crimp, bad wire terminal or dirty leads, etc., but everything looked good seemed to work fine after my discovery.  Fast forward three weeks and it had happened only one other time with the same remedy.  However, last weekend, when I tried engaging the glow plugs, the power went out at the engine panel again.  I needed to completely remove and then reconnect the battery wires (either positive or negative) for about 30 seconds to restore the power to the engine panel but when trying again, engaging the glow plugs caused the power to go out.  This now happens consistently.

I've opened up the engine compartment and checked for any loose wires.  My mutimeter says I have about 13.4 volts coming out of the batteries and with the engine panel face removed, I was able to measure about 11.6 volts at the ignition switch before trying to engage the glow plugs.  Out of desperation, I tried just engaging the starter before trying the glow plugs and the starter worked, after which the glow plugs would engage without loosing power and get the engine started.  Once running, the tachometer was not working and the ammeter on the engine panel read barely above 12 volts regardless of the engine RPMs.  I assume isn't quite right.

My theory after reading more about this (and unfortunately getting myself more confused), was that somehow the alternator is involved in the problem and may have faulty components that are causing the power supply to be interrupted when the power draw increases to engage the glow plugs. If true, I don't know why the starter would work given that is huge draw as well. 

I'd really appreciate any advice or guidance on what might be causing the problem or what else I should be checking.

I'm so grateful to the C34 community and have learned a great deal from other's experiences and expertise.

Thanks in advance and hope everyone is well and having a great sailing season.

-Mark Stein, SteinWay IV #1354
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: KWKloeber on June 10, 2021, 01:38:14 PM
Do you have an ammeter or a voltmeter?  Ammeters don't read in volts.
Do you still have the Gummy Bear plugs (engine AND behind the panel?)  Original harness?
Pictures!

Quote

The engine breaker (mounted on the engine - whose idea was that?), and engine panel breaker were fine. 


It's ABYC's idea.  An overcurrent device (ie, breaker or fuse) must be w/in 7" of the power source (battery cable.)   It isn't, but it's closer than no breaker or fuse at all as on most of the Universal engines.)

Do you have an M35A(C)?  The M35 did not come with a breaker on the engine.  A P.O. add-on?  Pictures!

The breaker is fine how?  How did you test it?  Do you know that it's good, no faults?
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: Ron Hill on June 10, 2021, 01:52:24 PM
Mark : You have a MKII C34 with a Voltmeter not an Ammeter!!  You also have a M35BC engine (by your hull #)!! 
The voltage at the key switch (OFF) should be similar to the voltage at the batteries !!

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 10, 2021, 05:01:27 PM
Mark Stein

Quote from: Mark Stein on June 10, 2021, 12:47:53 PM

I have a 1997 MkII #1357 and had no power to the engine panel at the helm when I first tuned on the ignition while "on the hard" this spring. The engine breaker (mounted on the engine - whose idea was that?), and engine panel breaker were fine.  It turned out that wiggling the positive terminal leads on the battery resulted in the power being restored.  I assumed I had a bad wire crimp, bad wire terminal or dirty leads, etc., but everything looked good seemed to work fine after my discovery.  Fast forward three weeks and it had happened only one other time with the same remedy. 

Mark, whenever there is an INTERMITTENT electrical issue it is 99% the fault of an electrical connection.

Quote from: Mark Stein on June 10, 2021, 12:47:53 PM

However, last weekend, when I tried engaging the glow plugs, the power went out at the engine panel again.  I needed to completely remove and then reconnect the battery wires (either positive or negative) for about 30 seconds to restore the power to the engine panel but when trying again, engaging the glow plugs caused the power to go out.  This now happens consistently.


This is not an unusual and not to be unexpected, because when a high load like the glow plugs are engaged, resistance in a faulty connection builds up.

Quote from: Mark Stein on June 10, 2021, 12:47:53 PM
I've opened up the engine compartment and checked for any loose wires.  My multimeter says I have about 13.4 volts coming out of the batteries and with the engine panel face removed, I was able to measure about 11.6 volts at the ignition switch before trying to engage the glow plugs. 


That is a significant voltage loss right there.  11.6/13.4=86% or an almost 15% voltage drop, and it's even bigger if you do the same math on a dead battery being 10.5V rather than 0.

There is great merit in checking your trailer connections as Ken suggests,


Quote from: Mark Stein on June 10, 2021, 12:47:53 PM
Out of desperation, I tried just engaging the starter before trying the glow plugs and the starter worked, after which the glow plugs would engage without loosing power and get the engine started.  Once running, the tachometer was not working and the ammeter on the engine panel read barely above 12 volts regardless of the engine RPMs.  I assume isn't quite right.

This was a good idea to try.  Most likely the reason it worked is that while high the load from the starter is of very short duration, whereas the glow plugs are much longer assuming you held them in for at least 10 seconds.

Quote from: Mark Stein on June 10, 2021, 12:47:53 PM
My theory after reading more about this (and unfortunately getting myself more confused), was that somehow the alternator is involved in the problem and may have faulty components that are causing the power supply to be interrupted when the power draw increases to engage the glow plugs. If true, I don't know why the starter would work given that is huge draw as well.

Starter vs. glow plugs discussed above.  Had you had any other alternator "related" issues prior to this?  Reason I ask is that it sounds a little like you're grasping at straws here simply because the tach didn't work, which could be because of a loose wire at the back of the alternator, or...wait for it...the selfsame TRAILER PLUGS which carry that tach wire from the engine compartment to the cockpit panel.  Are you seeing a pattern here?  :D

Here's what I would do it ITWMB:

I'd stop visually looking and essentially guessing about wire conditions, and start to really examine them.  Hold each end near any and all connections and pull on them.  Don't just "wiggle" them.  If "wiggling" made power come back, what do you think is happening?  I'm sure you know the answer.

Next, go find out about or re-read the info about the connectors (trailer plugs, a.k.a. gummy bears) and find out what condition they are in.  There is tons of information especially in the Critical Upgrades that cover these.

Next, go back to the questionable battery connections and confirm them, too.  You could also check behind the 1-2-B switch but experience suggests that usually isn't an issue.  Do you have dialectric grease?  If not, go get a small tube of it at an auto parts place and read the directions.  Applying it will assure that you REALLY clean the battery terminals and lugs.  Before you take the lugs off, give 'em a yank.  Also check the grounds and check the ground at the engine.

I doubt you have an alternator issue that would affect your system they way you describe.

Give these ideas a try and get back to us.

PS – I'm sure you meant voltmeter, don't let the small stuff bother you.
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: KWKloeber on June 10, 2021, 08:15:55 PM
Quote

because the tach didn't work, which could be because of a loose wire at the back of the alternator, or...wait for it...the selfsame TRAILER PLUGS which carry that tach wire from the engine compartment to the cockpit panel.  Are you seeing a pattern here?


Stu from the hull no. can you tell which engine Mark has?

Just for accuracy, if it's the M-35 the tach AC signal doesn't run thru the Gummy Bear plugs.  Why? Because like the fuel gauge, Catalina installed the wire, not Universal. 
Why didn't Universal install it?  Who knows??  Maybe UM figured that some of its engines would go into boats with a mechanical tach pick up?
If he has the M-35A then he has the convoluted Westebeke "A & B engine" waiting and all bets are off.  I could count on two hands things that might affect power to the engine panel.   
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: mark_53 on June 11, 2021, 12:42:45 AM
Quote from: Mark Stein on June 10, 2021, 12:47:53 PM
Once running, the tachometer was not working and the ammeter on the engine panel read barely above 12 volts regardless of the engine RPMs.  I assume isn't quite right.
You would be correct.  Barley 12 volts with the engine running doesn't sound right.  I'd check the alternator output at the source.  How many batteries doe you have?  Is there a dedicated start battery?  Clean terminal connection with a terminal cleaning brush.
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 11, 2021, 08:37:21 AM
Quote from: mark_53 on June 11, 2021, 12:42:45 AM
You would be correct.  Barley 12 volts with the engine running doesn't sound right.  I'd check the alternator output at the source.  How many batteries doe you have?  Is there a dedicated start battery?  Clean terminal connection with a terminal cleaning brush.

Mark and mark,

Not necessarily.  If the engine was just running at idle, one would expect the voltage to remain low.

Quote from: KWKloeber on June 10, 2021, 08:15:55 PM

Stu from the hull no. can you tell which engine Mark has?

...................................
...................................

I have no clue, why would you think I would?  I'm sure Mark would know.
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: Noah on June 11, 2021, 08:48:38 AM
Quote from: Ron Hill on June 10, 2021, 01:52:24 PM
Mark : You have a MKII C34 with a Voltmeter not an Ammeter!!  You also have a M35BC engine (by your hull #)!! 
The voltage at the key switch (OFF) should be similar to the voltage at the batteries !!

A few thoughts
Stu and ken—put this one on Ron. It was he who called out engine based upon hull number. :abd: 8)
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: mark_53 on June 11, 2021, 09:30:48 AM
Quote from: Stu Jackson on June 11, 2021, 08:37:21 AM
Quote from: mark_53 on June 11, 2021, 12:42:45 AM
You would be correct.  Barley 12 volts with the engine running doesn't sound right.  I'd check the alternator output at the source.  How many batteries doe you have?  Is there a dedicated start battery?  Clean terminal connection with a terminal cleaning brush.

Mark and mark,

Not necessarily.  If the engine was just running at idle, one would expect the voltage to remain low.

Stu at 1000 rpms my OEM alternator is putting out close to 14 volts.  Never 12 volts.  You are right though. it may be possible with an aftermarket alternator and regulator.

Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 11, 2021, 10:34:43 AM
Quote from: mark_53 on June 11, 2021, 09:30:48 AM

Stu at 1000 rpms my OEM alternator is putting out close to 14 volts.  Never 12 volts.  You are right though. it may be possible with an aftermarket alternator and regulator.

mark, that's true.  But IIRC he said his cockpit voltmeter was reading 12V.  If his house bank wasn't topped off, the system voltage plus voltage loss to cockpit panel (in many cases could be 10-15%!) could well be that as reported, even if the alternator was doing 14V.  I see it on my Balmar MC-612 all the time:  calculated voltage of say 14.3 vs. system voltage of 13.2 when charging starts.
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: Ron Hill on June 11, 2021, 12:46:50 PM
Ken :  FYI,  I know from the hull # that Mark has a MK II C34.  Catalina straightened out the wiring harness issue with the MK II and powered it with the M35BC engine!

A thought
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: KWKloeber on June 11, 2021, 12:50:55 PM
Ron, what do you mean by "straightened out"?  Are you saying that the 35BC doesn't have the convoluted fuel pump/alarm/oil switch wiring?

-k
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: Mark Stein on June 11, 2021, 12:53:45 PM
You guys are the best.  Just sayin'

Hi Ken,
Yes, volt meter is what I meant (thanks for the pass Stu).  I have gummy bears at the helm panel, the original harness that connects to a terminal bar in the pod at the helm and I'll send pictures this weekend.  Great point on the breaker(s) that simply trying to push them hardly constitutes a test of their working or not.  I didn't test them and honestly, not sure how to do that.  I've had the boat since 2008 and I don't think the previous made changes to the engine so will send more pics of this too.

Hi Ron,
Thanks for the corrections and I'm a little embarrassed since I actually do know enough to understand the difference between ammeter (I fly Cessna 172s and they have one) and a volt meter. I'll also confirm the voltage at the ignition switch in the off position to make sure it's showing a fall off.

Hi Stu,
I did replace the alternator about 6 years ago and had a slip neighbor/marine mechanic do the work.  It hasn't given me reason to worry, but then again, I certainly could have missed signs with which I'm not familiar.  Thanks for the suggestions on checking the wiring thoroughly and to your point about the extent of the voltage decrease from battery to ignition switch (and from Ron), it gives me a place to start. Tracing that wire, it appears to come into the engine compartment and go to both the starter (where the main power cable attaches) and the alternator. I confess I'm timid about tugging on wires that connect to a 24 year-old engine with my unfamiliarity of how and what they are for, but completely agree that if they're bad,  I need to address it.  I checked behind the 1-2-B switch and found nothing in behind the panel that looked loose or damaged.  I will be picking up dielectric grease today and going over all terminals to clean and apply. Will review the critical upgrades section as well.  I'm glad to hear that you don't suspect the alternator, but it would have been much simpler to correct I bet.
I will do the checks and get back to you all.

Hi Mark (great name by the way),
Thanks for the confirmation about the voltage.  The two 4D house batteries are on "1" while a smaller starting battery is on "2" (I did this modification my self about 4 years ago).  I'm going to grab a cleaning brush along with the grease today and will get to work.

I'll post back after I get a chance to get down there this weekend and do more work.

Thanks to you all for the insights and guidance. I'm thinking I might actually be able to track this down now that I have a few ideas of where to look.  I'll be back in touch soon.
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: KWKloeber on June 11, 2021, 12:54:30 PM
Quote from: Stu Jackson link=topic=11067.msg87709#

why would you think I would?


Carnack: cus you know more bout those things; admittedly I know zero bout engine changeovers on 34s. (I failed to see Ron's first msg re: the hull no.)

I'll need to give this multi-symptom deeper thought.  :cry4`
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: KWKloeber on June 11, 2021, 01:05:37 PM
@Mark_S

SuperLube gel is an excellent dielectric and great to have aboard for many lube needs.  Many hardware stores carry it (byw, those are places where you used to be able to walk in and the owner (your neighbor from down the road) would help you out and behind the counter had just what you needed (even though you didn't know what you needed and no less what it was called.))  Horror Fright also carries it. (SL also sells a "dielectric" but is in fact the same product with different marketing.)

I'll give the symptoms more thought now that I know more about your iron genny.


Completely unrelated aside - I took a borrowed 172 on my cross-country -- nice, more ooomph than the N3673J 150 that I learned on in the 70s (which unfortunately met an untimely demise in 2003.)
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: Ron Hill on June 11, 2021, 01:30:49 PM
Ken : "Ron, what do you mean by "straightened out"?  Are you saying that the 35BC doesn't have the convoluted fuel pump/alarm/oil switch wiring?"

Sorry I didn't go into great detail in my statement "straighten out".  In the Mk II C34 Catalina, did not send the output from the alternator to the key switch (volt meter) and then back to the batteries"  which was one of the problems with the original MK I wiring harness. 
The M35 BC engine still has that goofy fuel pump/alarm/oil switch wiring!!

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: KWKloeber on June 11, 2021, 02:32:54 PM
@Ron.  Ahhh ok, I hadn't even thought about the ammeter deal.  A lot of peeps blame CTY for things Universal did and blame Universal for CTY/Seaward quirks.  Westerbeke actually stopped sending alt power thru the RV plugs after it bought Universal Medalist and converted the harnesses (with the introduction of the "A" engines (25XPA, 35A, etc., series)) to its "W" engine standard (e.g., W-30, W-33.)   eg, "A" designates only a wiring change, as we know "B" designates a completely different engine with the same wiring as the "A."  T.M.I.

@Mark_S

It's my quirk when troubleshooting that I do not like fiddling with things -- and a problem "going away" and not knowing whether I actually fixed it or a coincidence made a symptom disappear.  When I am able, I much prefer systematically narrowing down what caused the symptom and then fixing only that and moving on to the next -- so that I know exactly what to expect down the road.  So what I mean is IIWMB, it'd first investigate WHY at rest there is a ~2v difference between the battery and key switch -- which might point to the cause of losing power at the panel.  (Again IIWMB,) I'd replicate the symptom and systematically look at each V point from the key switch back to the battery to see where the V jumps back to battery voltage. 

RE: Alt - Depending on whether the mechanic changed any wiring, the +12v Alt field excite is driven from the key switch (but runs first to the oil pressure switch) so if there's a problem along that route it could affect the Alt output -- the harness at the oil switch location is notorious for problems (a terminal can break off because Wb used stiff untinned SAE wire instead of flexible tinned marine wire. and vibration gets transmitted to the oil switch terminals.)

RE: low V at the key -- there could be something drawing down the V, not necessarily a bad terminal/lug connection  The V at the preheat solenoid would be key because it comes straight from the battery cable (from where it's connected to the starter solenoid B terminal.)

I attached the schematic for the B(C) engines. The 10a circuit breaker at the preheat solenoid is also problematic - it gets corroded and fails (which affects the oil pressure/alarm circuit.)

Another hint to look for - very often panel power issues are due to a bad "ground" (negative) somewhere - either at the panel or where the harness negative wire is grounded (I don't know where that occurs on the B engines.)
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: Mark Stein on June 13, 2021, 06:35:02 PM
Hello Again from Milwaukee.

Stu wisely advised me to start my discovery process with a good cleaning of the battery terminals.  After that was completed, it now seems fine.  It would be interesting to know how many of us unsuspecting newbies (not new to the boat, just the complexities of marine electrical systems) have admitted embarrassingly, that it was a simple solution to a confusing problem.  I have to add my name to the list - again...  Thanks to you all for the guidance and insights again.  The experience taught not only considerably more information than I had previously and was somewhat hesitant to learn, but also a valuable lesson in keeping that battery compartment on the checklist of high priority maintenance issues.

Other lessons learned were to keep those engine electrical connections clean which will be happening next.

Incidentally, the SteinWay IV has a Universal M35AC engine. (I uploaded a photo of the plate on the engine but file size was too large - sorry).

Ken, my X country was in a 152 (along with 75% of my training).  I now only rent the 172s but haven't flown since October.

My thanks to you all and if I could, I'd stop by each of your boats with a cold six-pack.  You guys are the best and C34 owners are fortunate to have such an important resource.  Enjoy your summer and good winds and flat seas to you all.

-Mark

Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: Mark Stein on June 14, 2021, 04:34:40 AM
Hello Ken,

Just saw your last post this morning after I posted my fix and thanks for the diagram which is much better than my owner's manual.  Is this different from the M35AC model?

Thanks!

-Mark
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: KWKloeber on June 14, 2021, 11:48:05 AM
Mark which manual do you mean?  Catalina C34 manual or Universal engine manual (date, rev #?)? 

The short answer is that the #200360 wiring schematic is good for both the M-35A(C) and M-35B(C) but not for the M-35.

The diagram and schematic are in the engine Ops Manual and Service Manual  -- when Westerbeke bought Universal "all" it did was revise the wiring of the older engine models (m-25XP, M-35, etc.,) use a different oil pressure switch (moved off engine block to a remote location,) and install the breaker and preheat solenoid arrangement (to confirm to the same scheme that Westerbeke previously used.) 

The M35A(C) engine itself is the same as the M35.  The "B" series engines (eg, M-35B(C)) are different engines than the "A" engines, but the "As" "Bs" both have the same convoluted wiring scheme.   "(C)" merely designates it's wired to CTY's spec and engine panel, not Westerbeke's panel (the alarm and some other things are different between the two.)
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 14, 2021, 01:24:08 PM
Just a Heads Up

Whenever I see reference made to the "#200360 wiring schematic" my ears perk up.  Back in 2007, we had an extensive and long discussion about that (those?) wiring diagrams.  Because I have a strange memory for numbers, that one has always stuck with me.  I was on vacation back then from San Francisco to here in British Columbia, and thus had time to spend on Michael's issue.  I researched the referenced two "#200360 wiring" diagrams and determined and described why they were different.  While one is a physical wiring diagram and the other is an electrical schematic, the point is the wiring is different. They both have the same number and appear in consecutive pages in the M35 engine manual.  They were not for my engine but I got into the details for that topic.  I do not know if they (the diagrams) have been corrected (the wiring differences between two identically numbered diagrams) in past eight years.

My purpose in sharing these links and excerpts, which are prominent in the Critical Upgrades topic, is to simply point out to those who choose to investigate these wiring diagrams for their boats that here is a potential issue they should understand and resolve.  I do not know if the differences between the diagrams have been corrected to agree with each other in the past eight years.

Please also note that since I contributed to this eight years ago, I have no further interest in delving any further into the differences between "the M-35A(C) and M-35B(C) and the M-35."   I'll leave that up to those of you who own those engines.  And thanks to Ken for describing the differences so well.

Your engine, your choice.  :D

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


Reply #30 --- Page 3 of Critical Upgrades includes this:

In 2007 we had discussed this in a very looong thread:  Hard Starting/ Possible glow plug problem?? M35 Engines & Fuel Pump Wiring

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3347.45.html

Reply #52 on page 4 of that topic begins to discuss the wiring to the fuel pump, how it works, issues with bleeding, and continues to end up describing exactly the issue that Dave addressed in his question.

These are two excerpts from that referenced link:

Post #49 ---

The manual I was using is the one on this website, http://www.c34ia.org/manuals/Operators-Manual-2of2.pdf .  The same wiring diagram 200360 is on page 25 and schematic 200360 is on page 26 (pages 5 and 6 of the pdf). 

[Updated by Stu 10/22/2020]
That link has been superseded by this one:  http://c34.org/wiki/images/1/19/Universal_A%28C%29_series_engines_%28M-25XPA%28C%29%2C_M-35A%28C%29%29_operators_manual_OCR.pdf
Look for pages 25 & 26 of the manual, NOT the PDF pages.


Post #52 ---  My reply

Grounding & Wiring Diagrams:  Continuing with comments on your # 37:  Grounding should have nothing to do with your "issue."  It appears that it is one of significant differences between the two quoted Catalina wiring diagrams, and a POSITIVE-side  power issue, unless, of course, your grounds aren't solid.  You wrote: "Now the problem as it is theorized to be is that because the electrical circuit ("preheat solenoid activating circuit") that energizes the preheat solenoid (which acts as a switch to close the glow plugs circuit) runs through the electric lift fuel pump (a clever way to make sure that when the glow plugs are energizing fuel is also being delivered by the lift pump to the fuel injection pump for onward delivery to the cylinders when the engine cranks), if the lift pump electronics are making and breaking they make and break the preheat solenoid activating circuit with the result that the preheat solenoid does not close - or closes intermittently..."  What's so "clever?"  If the pump was ON from the ignition switch, it wouldn't need to be connected to the solenoid at all, and there wouldn't have to be two wires to the pump.  And, it is entirely useless to have the pump running before the engine starts, so why have it "linked" to the glow plugs at all?  Although "our" design does have it run then anyway, right?   Following your logic would mean that the lift pump is OFF just when you need it: when the engine starts!!  Think about it.  And, based on the wiring diagrams noted in your later post # 47, that simply does NOT seem to be the case.    The power to the solenoid simply is NOT  shown on either diagram to "run through" the fuel pump: the circuit goes FROM the keyswitch TO the solenoid and then TO the fuel pump.  The fuel pump has two feeds on the page 25 diagram:  one from the solenoid when the keyswitch is being held to energize the glow plugs via the "S" terminal of the keyswitch, and second, from the "I" terminal of the keyswitch when the engine starts and the oil switch closes.  On the page 26 diagram, the glow plugs and the fuel pump are in PARALLEL, on both pages 25 & 26 the fuel pump and oil pressure switch are in SERIES.  BECAUSE the fuel pump is in SERIES with the oil pressure switch, the pump will NOT run until the engine starts unless it is wired with the double inputs on page 25.  On that page 25, the pump WILL run when the glow plugs (solenoid) is held ON with the "S" spring on the keyswitch. You are correct in your summary, but my point is that the wiring just doesn't go THROUGH the fuel pump to the solenoid, it runs FROM the solenoid TO the pump when the keyswitch is held on.  It's a subtle, but important difference, because I see no way that your theory that the pump is affecting the glow plugs should apply.  You can easily TEST my understanding of the circuits:  either disconnect the fuel pump or close the circuit breaker, if there is one, from the solenoid to the pump. 

Wiring Diagram Discrepancies: These are TWO serious discrepancies between the two wiring diagrams. (1) Circuit breakers:  Page 25 of the wiring diagram shows the circuit breaker downstream of the solenoid TO the pump.  Page 26 shows a circuit breaker between the oil pressure switch and the resistor to ground.   (2) Connections to the pump from the Positive (+) Wiring Side:  Page 25 shows the wiring from the downstream side of the solenoid to the + side of the fuel pump, while page 26 shows the wiring from the end run of the glow plugs to the (-) side of the pump.   They are numbered the same (#200360) but they are very different re: the pump operation.  On the page 26 drawing the pump simply should not start from anything BUT the oil pressure switch. Follow both the positive wiring TO the pump and the grounds from and around it.   You need to find out what you have on YOUR boat before you go adding stuff.  I would find that out first if it was my boat.
Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: KWKloeber on June 14, 2021, 08:42:57 PM
Quote from: Stu Jackson on June 14, 2021, 01:24:08 PM
Just a Heads Up

that here is a potential issue they should understand and resolve.  I do not know if they have been corrected in past eight years.


200360 diagram and schematic:

There's nothing to be "corrected," the Schematic and the Diagram are functionally identical.  The pages in the engine manuals are an adaptation of Westerbeke engineering drawing #200390 (attached,) which was a revision to engineering drawing #39144 (which is the "Westerbeke" standard.)  The left side (of both drawings) is the "Diagram" and to the right is the "Schematic." The left side of both drawings is electrically identical to the right side, and in the engine manuals the "Diagram" is electrically identical to the "Schematic."

I think? I had posted about this back in June 2018 after I traced out each wire/circuit/connection point and component between the two drawings and found them "electrically equivalent."  However, the schematic is poorly drawn which adds confusion (the Diagram better depicts each physical wire and physical connection point/component.)  Other than the bad artistic depiction they operate the same "electrically."

Title: Re: Ignition Power Universal M35
Post by: KWKloeber on June 14, 2021, 10:44:05 PM
Maybe I can put to bed that the apparent discrepancies are not discrepancies (I wish that I could go back in time so that the confusion doesn't live on):

Quote from: Stu Jackson

Wiring Diagram Discrepancies: These are TWO serious discrepancies between the two wiring diagrams.

(1) Circuit breakers:  Page 25 of the wiring diagram shows the circuit breaker downstream of the solenoid TO the pump.  Page 26 shows a circuit breaker between the oil pressure switch and the resistor to ground.



Using several colors to deconfuse things, ATT 1 shows that they are identical --  :thumb:

Both 25 & 26 show that +12v power (blue) feeds one side of the 10a circuit breaker and the other side of the breaker goes to both the lift pump (green) and thru the 1K resistor to ground (red.)


Quote from: Stu Jackson

(2) Connections to the pump from the Positive (+) Wiring Side:  Page 25 shows the wiring from the downstream side of the solenoid to the + side of the fuel pump, while page 26 shows the wiring from the end run of the glow plugs to the (-) side of the pump.   


On both 25 & 26, the  -12v side of the pump (black) and -12v side of the glow plugs (black) connect to engine ground (black.)  Both also show the +12v side of the pump powered (green) thru the preheat solenoid (I terminal) and the glow plugs fed (orange) from the power post of the solenoid.

Both also show the lift pump alternately powered from the oil switch (purple) when there is oil pressure.


THERE IS an error in the Schematic (how the glow plugs are depicted looks to be in series.)  In actuality, the +12v and -12v should connect to the individual depiction of each glow plug (they are powered wired in parallel, not on plug to the next.)