Does anyone know if there is a stringer anywhere between the one near the forward edge of the galley cabinet and the front of the engine compartment? I meant to try and look last week and/or sound the floor with the sole lifted and forgot.
Thanks
my '89 doesn't have one. the last stringer aft is the one between the battery box and the water heater
Quote from: mdidomenico on April 21, 2021, 05:46:55 AM
my '89 doesn't have one. the last stringer aft is the one between the battery box and the water heater
Thanks for the quick reply! Since ours are both MKI, I think its safe to figure mine is the same.
Definitely no stringers aft of the one under the galley. I fished many a wire and hose under that floor at this point and even stuck my head down there looking aft when the water heater was removed. Nothing but smooooooth hull all the way to the head on one side and the motor mount "tray" along the centerline of the boat. I wish I'd thought to stick my phone down there for a picture or two, but alas....I didn't.
Guys : As Eric mentioned there is a partial build up at the aft end of the engine compartment. This covers about the center 1/3 of the hull.
A thought
So, the reason for the question regarding the stringer was an interest in trying to run conduit for new cables from the port side of the port engine bed to the battery compartment fwd of the galley. Well, after attempting a closer inspection, it appears that will be just about impossible. So, plan B is to try and run new cables between without conduit. Since there are so many hoses already in the bilge, its nearly impossible carefully inspect the bilge where I'd like to drill a hole on the port side of the engine compartment for the cables, similar to the water heater hoses and a few cables run the the floor on the stbd side of the stbd engine mount. I'm going to order an endoscope for my smart phone for a better inspection. Its crossed my mind to cut a rectangular access hole with a multi-master under the sole 6" or so fwd of where I'm thinking of drilling the hole but, not willing to do that until I get a camera to avoid the hot & cold water lines running in the two pvc pipes to the back of the engine compartment. Last thing I want to do is create more problems.
I'm open to suggestions and shared experiences for how others have undoubtedly done something similar. I'm certain others have already built this wheel...
Thanks for any help!
Not sure if this info might help you but, I did install an 8 in. Beckson port under the teak cabin sole next to the shower to access sump drain hose. Gives some access. I had grind/inset it a bit into the fiberglass so teak lays back down flush.
Quote from: Noah on April 24, 2021, 11:20:26 AM
Not sure if this info might help you but, I did install an 8 in. Beckson port under the teak cabin sole next to the shower to access sump drain hose. Gives some access. I had grind/inset it a bit into the fiberglass so teak lays back down flush.
That's a good idea. I was thinking about pocket cuts with a multi-master then mounting pieces of wood to support it going forward but the Beckson port is better and cleaner although more time-consuming to install. Do you or anyone know if any hose or wire "chases" are mounted to the underside of the deck in that area?
It was clear under there on my boat.
Quote from: Noah on April 24, 2021, 11:58:05 AM
It was clear under there on my boat.
So did you mount as close to the shower as you could or maybe a little further toward centerline where I'd be interested in running cables? Just trying to get an idea where these fringin hoses and cables are that Catalina created chases for
It has been several years since I cut the hole but I believe the area in clear in a wide swath under there. I will search for any old pics. But can't guarantee I have any. Hole was somewhat off center under large floorboard close enough to shower to reach inside and change drain hose. If you are "really nice" I could be coaxed to unscrew the floor and check it out for you. I will be at the boat tomorrow and all next week, working on never-ending "stuff".
Bill : I've already done what you are looking for!! When I installed my duel output Balmar(1991- 2?) and ran my wiring direct to the batteries here is what I did:
I drilled a 1-1 1/8"? hole in the floor of the engine compartment between the outside of the portside engine mount stringer and the wall to the head. The reason for the large hole was I put the 2 positive and the negative (all #4 gage) inside a 1' clear plastic hose which acted as a conduit. This bundle went under the galley flooring and comes out by the water heater (door with the small trash basket). Then the wires go up into the battery compartment. The 2 positives are thru one hole and the negative thru its own hole.
I did all this rewiring because it made more sense to have the alternator output go direct to the batteries rather than the devious route - under the flooring to the battery selector switch - back under the flooring to finally reach the batteries. I have a separate fuse for each +wire in the battery compartment.
Later (10 years?) I rerouted the hoses from the water heater to the galley by just going direct from the water heater to the galley under the flooring and removed the old water heater hoses that came up into the engine compartment, then back around the rear of that wall then into the compartment under the head sink. I got tired of hose smell so I replaced those hoses using just black auto heater hose - NO SMELL!!
I mention that, because you could replace those heater hoses first and you'd have more room to work on the hole in the floor for the alternator wiring.
I'm sure that people have starting problems because of a bad ground. This way there is a #4 ground from the alternator case to the batteries!!!
Knowing me there is probably a Mainsheet tech note article on this wiring and the changing of the water heater hoses to the head.
A few thoughts - clear as mud??
Ron, thanks for sharing. I'm figuring between the engine compartment to the house bank, 1/0 for alternator, 2/0 for ACR hot to starter battery in the aft cabin and 2/0 for negative to the engine. of course switches fuses etc. So, I too will be making a pretty big hole and a little bigger than 1-1/8 to accommodate the cable size. Might not be a bad idea for me to make a rectangular hole on the port side of the port engine bed. I'm thinking about a good size access hole in the floor between the galley and engine compartment, like Noah mentioned, which would allow some room to reach each direction to mount the cable to the underside of the floor. An idea from a friend about hanging the cable.
I'm not quite getting the water heater hose change etc. but I'm interested in what you did. It does look like it's time for me to replace the coolant lines between the engine and water heater. I know I need to replace my water heater, she leaks a wee bit, in the relatively near future but hope to push that to this winter cause new batteries, new to us refrigeration, new alternator and all new cables is more than I originally figured on this year. Oh yeah, got new lifelines this off-season too. Starting to look like I might have this boat till death do us part :shock:
Hi Bill, When I rewired my 1987 I removed the hot and cold water hoses going to the head sink from the engine compartment and re-ran them directly to the head along the path of the manual bilge hose. I then drilled a third hole farther aft in the engine pan and fished short sections of water hose into those holes for local chafe protection. I then ran the positive starter and alternator cables directly to the battery compartment, and the negative cable directly to the house negative buss thru those hose sections. To pull the cables from the engine compartment I used a fish tape from the water heater area to the engine compartment. It worked fine and I did not have to drill any holes in the floor pan for access. I used 1AWG for my electrical upgrade not 0 or 00AWG. I attached a photo for reference.
Bill,
I'm glad Jon chimed in on this. I recall when he first asked about access under his engine when he was contemplating this work, I noted that I do not have any holes on the port side of my engine. My water hoses run under the engine and around the back to get to under the head sink. Also, when I ran new wiring for my higher output alternator, I ran them under the engine, too.
Jon & I compared photos, and Noah might have been involved, too. Turns out that there is completely clear space all the way across under the back of my engine, while Jon showed me pictures of his that was closed off.
It seems that not all of our boats were built identically, so check carefully because sometimes you may not have to cut holes.
Bill : My #4 gage Marine Grade wire does great. I would NEVER go higher than #2 gage MG wire. My and probably your voltage regulator is stepped down so the alternator will never charge over 80 amps anyway!!! That short distance the difference between #4 & #2 loss is almost negligible!!!
I'm afraid that when you go to a stiffer wire you might create other problems - I have already once broken one positive connection at the alternator - I believe from engine vibration to the stiff #4 wire!! It broke the ring connector!!!! The other problem might be finding a ring connector with a small enough hole to connect to the alternator with #0 wire!!
As far as the hot water hoses to the head sink - that area under the flooring is wide open!
A few thoughts
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 25, 2021, 01:15:22 PM
Bill : My #4 gage Marine Grade wire does great. I would NEVER go higher than #2 gage MG wire. My and probably your voltage regulator is stepped down so the alternator will never charge over 80 amps anyway!!! That short distance the difference between #4 & #2 loss is almost negligible!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I sent Bill a pm asking about his decision making process of this wire sizing, haven't heard back yet, hope he's boat-busy today! :D
I replied to Stu's PM via email this AM and just got an email from the web master. So, I just sent a PM back to him.
In short,
So, my reason for 2/0 is I plan on using Blue Seas ACR 7620 or 7622 that includes Start Assist providing the ability to override and combine the house bank with the start battery to start the engine should my start battery unexpectedly not be up to the task. So, the house bank run is about 8-1/2 - 9 feet by the time I go down over and back up, so I rounded to 10'. Double that for a 20' run, 3% voltage drop, possible less than ideal cable environment conditions to start the battery = massive cable for ACR & ground for insurance.
I'm a newbie at boat wiring "design" and if I'm way over-sized share your thoughts. When I first sized this I had my start battery in the hanging locker at the Nav station but I'm now seriously thinking about moving the start battery to the shelf in the aft cabin and enclose it and mount the regulator above it on the port bulkhead above the battery
Quote from: Stu Jackson on April 25, 2021, 04:50:03 PM
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 25, 2021, 01:15:22 PM
Bill : My #4 gage Marine Grade wire does great. I would NEVER go higher than #2 gage MG wire. My and probably your voltage regulator is stepped down so the alternator will never charge over 80 amps anyway!!! That short distance the difference between #4 & #2 loss is almost negligible!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I sent Bill a pm asking about his decision making process of this wire sizing, haven't heard back yet, hope he's boat-busy today! :D
I was "boat-busy". I disconnected all the wires and control cables in the way of removing the after water tank because I had a leak. I found two at each corner where the aft tank wall meets the step down at the top. I plastic welded some stainless screen and filled over-top. I also replaced the leaky port cockpit scupper. I'll replace the stbd scupper next week, test the tank etc...
Do you have a schematic you can post?
FWIW - Using a spreadsheet I copied from the C34 Tech WIKI in 2015, my voltage drop from house bank to alternator 1AWG positive and negative circuit is 4.7%. Regardless, the engine jumps to life with 1AWG. 1AWG was a challenge to route in tight spaces. I can't imagine what 0 or 00AWG will be like.
Quote from: Jon W on April 25, 2021, 07:26:57 PM
Do you have a schematic you can post?
FWIW - Using a spreadsheet I copied from the C34 Tech WIKI in 2015, my voltage drop from house bank to alternator 1AWG positive and negative circuit is 4.7%. Regardless, the engine jumps to life with 1AWG. 1AWG was a challenge to route in tight spaces. I can't imagine what 0 or 00AWG will be like.
Folks, Bill sent me his diagram offline. Here it is. I've just started reviewing it.
FWIW back, I agree, and I did the same with my #2 AO. I still use the OEM #4 wire from my switch to the starter. Also remember that there are #4 wires from the battery box to the switch.
I also followed Jon's lead when doing my new battery/wiring upgrade this winter. I used 1AWG from batteries to starter/solenoid (and from AO to back to batteries), routed underneath galley floor to engine compartment like in Jon's photo. Cut a 6" X 6" access panel in the FG floor pan under the teak and holly floor to help fish those larger cables. The floor pan is 1" thick, cored with 3/4" marine ply: very strong.
Now have nothing going from the batteries through the panel (to the motor) in either direction. Was able to re-purpose the existing channels/conduit running under the head/wet locker to route wires for the new Balmar external regulator mounted in the aft cabin to the battery compartment.
Seems like I took out acres of original #4 wire, none of it tinned copper.
Guys : I don't believe that (from what I've seen) that any of the Mk 1 C34s have ANY tinned marine grade wire anywhere!!
My thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 26, 2021, 02:59:21 PM
Guys : I don't believe that (from what I've seen) that any of the Mk 1 C34s have ANY tinned marine grade wire anywhere!!
having removed every single piece of wiring from my boat, i can confirm this is likely true. or at least i certainly was for me.
I can also confirm that everything I've removed on my 91 has not been tinned.
While changing wire and/or installing stuff on your boat, I would also be on the lookout for hidden surprises like this beauty I found lurking on my boat behind some trim...
Quote from: Noah on April 27, 2021, 09:07:24 AM
While changing wire and/or installing stuff on your boat, I would also be on the lookout for hidden surprises like this beauty I found lurking on my boat behind some trim...
Kinda makes one wish for plastic / non-conductive screws :shock:
BTW, my stern navigation light was 16 gauge brown lamp cord. My bow still is but, hopefully not for too much longer.
Bill : A number of us have mounted their Voltage Regulators in the compartment under the head sink. It is just around the corner from the alternator, is low in a cool place and you can easily check the LED lights. Also easy to run the battery temp wire from the batteries to the regulator.
Note that the Balmar regulators are mounted on a heat sync and have cooling fins. I even took a small "Rubber Made" box an cut the bottom and most of the sides off, so the top protects the regulator. The box is between the wall and the regulator.
A few thoughts
My Balmer Regulator is mounted on the door.
very nice solution Noah
Gyus : While some people are going "Ape" over the wire size that is necessary to start (& receive charging) from our tiny HorsePower engines; one of the more important items is the connectors on those wires!!!
I've been criticized, but all of my wiring on Apache is both crimped and soldered for the best possible electrical connection!! Maybe that's why my #4 Marine Grade wire does such a great job?? :clap
A thought
I haven't considered soldering but I will be using FTZ PowerLugs for all cable connections.
Don't forget to use a good quality crimper too.