Boat is on the hard from last season. I live in Ottawa Canada so we haul out every winter.
-Port lazarette has signs of coolant leakage from the coolant recovery tank. Can be kept tidy with a shop cloth changed every few days.
-Engine had low coolant at beginning of year last year
-Current level of coolant in engine is low
-Coolant is in the bilge
Can anyone point me in the right direction as to where to start looking for leaks? Last season I kept topping up the recovery bottle, and checking coolant level in the engine before every sail. I'd like to get this solved.
Hopefully the pictures can help. I haven't done my spring cleaning yet so the boats a bit manky!
pby : How about listing your hull number and production year. It looks like you have a M35BC engine.
I would put a fuel diaper under the engine and then watch it to see if you can spot where it is leaking.
You can also take a paper towel and wipe each hose connection an maybe spot a loose connection.
A few thoughts
That looks like an M35B engine. I seem to also find coolant, only in the winter on the hard, on the hull right below the engine. Not enough to spill into the bilge. But then again, I keep a absorbent diaper under the engine at all times. In my case, I believe it's comes from the connection at the hose (your top picture, hose on the right). I suspect in the cold temperature, the contraction of the parts causes the hose connection to be somewhat loose, causing coolant to weep out. Also, I see pink stains in that area. Never see a leak during the warmer weather during sailing season. In your picture, I do see the paint in that area bubbling. Maybe it's the coolant reacting with the paint which means maybe that's where your coolant is coming from. Look underneath that area and trace down the engine and see if you see evidence of pink coolant remains.
2000 MkII #1534
I have the year and hull number under my name. Maybe it's more visible in the signature..? I'll have to change it.
Good suggestion! What do you create a 'diaper' out of and I guess you make it larger enough to cover the area under the engine?
Quote from: Ron Hill on March 17, 2021, 02:39:52 PM
pby : How about listing your hull number and production year. It looks like you have a M35BC engine.
I would put a fuel diaper under the engine and then watch it to see if you can spot where it is leaking.
You can also take a paper towel and wipe each hose connection an maybe spot a loose connection.
A few thoughts
I see what you're referring too. I didn't realize that might be a sign of coolant leak.
Your theory on contraction is what I was going with as well, however it doesn't explain the coolant recovery tank leak. I've been to the boat today and have added the photos from the lazarette.
I do think that the recovery tank is a separate issue, but it's a bit odd to have both at the same time... not a lot to go with in the photos, but I'm think it could be the clamp under the tank that attaches the hose. Seems very odd that it is loose too, but there's not many options for point of failure with the tank!
Quote from: Roc on March 17, 2021, 04:19:59 PM
That looks like an M35B engine. I seem to also find coolant, only in the winter on the hard, on the hull right below the engine. Not enough to spill into the bilge. But then again, I keep a absorbent diaper under the engine at all times. In my case, I believe it's comes from the connection at the hose (your top picture, hose on the right). I suspect in the cold temperature, the contraction of the parts causes the hose connection to be somewhat loose, causing coolant to weep out. Also, I see pink stains in that area. Never see a leak during the warmer weather during sailing season. In your picture, I do see the paint in that area bubbling. Maybe it's the coolant reacting with the paint which means maybe that's where your coolant is coming from. Look underneath that area and trace down the engine and see if you see evidence of pink coolant remains.
pby : Sorry for not seeing your C34 info under your name!!
Put another fuel diaper under your recover tank and check it's connection. Suck out the stuff in your bulge and dry it out!! Then you can start to track down your leak. Don't forget to check all of your hose connections - it's got to be more than a occasional drip to get that much in the bilge!!
A few thoughts
As Ron said, it's a "fuel diaper" I'm referring to. The diaper stops the coolant from making it's way to the bilge. I plan on changing that hose and a new clamp, in hopes to stop that leak. I have tightened the current clamp, but that does no good. Your recovery tank leak is another situation. My guess either loose connections, or maybe a crack in the plastic?
pby : Your leak is so severe it should be easy to find - not just a simple occasional drip.
I'l bet it's a hose connection!! 8)
A thought
Here's hoping!
Do you think it makes sense to change the hoses...?
Quote from: Ron Hill on March 19, 2021, 02:45:23 PM
pby : Your leak is so severe it should be easy to find - not just a simple occasional drip.
I'l bet it's a hose connection!! 8)
A thought
QuoteDo you think it makes sense to change the hoses...?
My 2cents...Yes and No. If it were me I'd find the leak/leaks first. Then decide on hose replacement, if original they are 20 years old. Haven't changed hoses on Shamrock yet but do give them a good look over. I recommend you get a nut-driver that fits the hose clamps, 5/16 I think and possibly one with a flex shaft. Then go over every hose clamp on the boat, just real screw driver tight. Like the second tool here except mine doesn't have the flip socket. Don't think that would be a good feature due to loosing the socket.
https://www.idealtridon.com/turn-key-and-hose-clamp-driver.html
Happy leak hunting,
Jim
Don't forget about the heater hose. Replaced mine just in time.
pby : Just take a piece of paper towel and touch the underside of esch hose connection. That stain will immediatly let you know where the leak is!!
If the paper towel doesn't show up anything, then look to see if any part of each hose might be rubbing against something for a rubthru ??
FYI, That origional water heater hose is wire reinforced hose.
a few thoughts
Yikes! I'll check!
Quote from: Steve Hansen on March 20, 2021, 06:24:53 AM
Don't forget about the heater hose. Replaced mine just in time.
This happened to one of our C30 owners. Every spring, coolant found. All season and at lay up, no coolant drips.
It was a heat exchanger hose connection.
Like negative battery connections- check EVERY hose connection.
I'll make sure to double check that connection.
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 20, 2021, 08:50:29 PM
This happened to one of our C30 owners. Every spring, coolant found. All season and at lay up, no coolant drips.
It was a heat exchanger hose connection.
Like negative battery connections- check EVERY hose connection.
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on March 20, 2021, 05:05:16 AM
QuoteDo you think it makes sense to change the hoses...?
My 2cents...Yes and No. If it were me I'd find the leak/leaks first. Then decide on hose replacement, if original they are 20 years old. ..............
.............................................................................
When my boat reached your boat's age, I simply changed all the hoses and clamps.
I only did a few at a time, following Ron Hill's advice that if you fix too many things at once, you'll never find out just where the problem was to begin with.
It's a wise investment to change them all. When you see the condition of the hose from the engine to the water heater, you'll know why. (Photos linked in the Critical Upgrades topic.)
Those Critical Upgrades were originally conceived, (as so noted in the introduction in the first post) to capture recurring issues. Many of them were "corrected" in later models of the boats, but not all of them. One recurring one was to check your engine while running, which almost always led to "hose replacement" or new raw water pump seals.
I had a tiny coolant leak at the fresh water coolant pump. I feared the worst. Turned out to be a loose hose clamp.
Your boat, your choice. :D
But why would you not want to?
Currently going through a full hose replacement on my new to me 91. The idea is that i like to know the replacement date. This gives me at least a known quantity even if some of the hoses have a service life left in them.
Had 1986 M25 in Lake Erie lost engine coolant every winter. Filled it up and ran all summer without topping it off. Never really figured it out, I did suspect the engine to coolant pump gasket.
PB, If the coolant is in the lazerette it really only come from the top of the expansion tank, from the hose connection to the expansion tank, a crack in the expansion tank or the hose is cracked and leaking. Could be it's finding it's way from the lazerette to the bilge.
More concerning to me would be why is it low on coolant in the pressurized engine tank. Is it leaking from a hose, a fitting, a head gasket or where. It would be worth topping up and then manually pressurizing the system (Auto Zone for a tool loan) and seeing if you can spot a leak while the engine is cold and you don't get singed reaching around the engine.
If you aren't finding the oil level increasing then the coolant most likely isn't finding it's way to the oil pan, and/or if you aren't seeing steam and smelling glycol when the engine runs the head gasket is good.
It might be you have 2 issues going on here. Lazerette leak is a PITA, the other more tricky and needs fixing.
I'll have to review the critical upgrade photos.
I stuck my head and hands into every area I could today and noticed that, possibly, the hose on the left side of the engine that is connected to the heat exchanger was ever so slightly damp. I've refilled the engine coolant to full and put shop towels under the engine in various locations and everywhere I think there is a coolant connection. I'll check back on it in a couple of days.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on March 22, 2021, 12:06:03 PM
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on March 20, 2021, 05:05:16 AM
QuoteDo you think it makes sense to change the hoses...?
My 2cents...Yes and No. If it were me I'd find the leak/leaks first. Then decide on hose replacement, if original they are 20 years old. ..............
.............................................................................
When my boat reached your boat's age, I simply changed all the hoses and clamps.
I only did a few at a time, following Ron Hill's advice that if you fix too many things at once, you'll never find out just where the problem was to begin with.
It's a wise investment to change them all. When you see the condition of the hose from the engine to the water heater, you'll know why. (Photos linked in the Critical Upgrades topic.)
Those Critical Upgrades were originally conceived, (as so noted in the introduction in the first post) to capture recurring issues. Many of them were "corrected" in later models of the boats, but not all of them. One recurring one was to check your engine while running, which almost always led to "hose replacement" or new raw water pump seals.
I had a tiny coolant leak at the fresh water coolant pump. I feared the worst. Turned out to be a loose hose clamp.
Your boat, your choice. :D
But why would you not want to?
Took a photo of the port lazarette hoses. It doesn't look like anything is coming from the recovery tank into the bilge. Hoses show no signs of being wetted and are dusty. Nothing I could see along hull either.
That may point to a cracked tank or hose clamp. It's completely empty so the crack my be on the bottom out of sight.
Quote from: Robert Mann on March 23, 2021, 01:13:07 PM
PB, If the coolant is in the lazerette it really only come from the top of the expansion tank, from the hose connection to the expansion tank, a crack in the expansion tank or the hose is cracked and leaking. Could be it's finding it's way from the lazerette to the bilge.
More concerning to me would be why is it low on coolant in the pressurized engine tank. Is it leaking from a hose, a fitting, a head gasket or where. It would be worth topping up and then manually pressurizing the system (Auto Zone for a tool loan) and seeing if you can spot a leak while the engine is cold and you don't get singed reaching around the engine.
If you aren't finding the oil level increasing then the coolant most likely isn't finding it's way to the oil pan, and/or if you aren't seeing steam and smelling glycol when the engine runs the head gasket is good.
It might be you have 2 issues going on here. Lazerette leak is a PITA, the other more tricky and needs fixing.
Did you check tightness of and/or bulged/leaky gaskets under Hx end caps, and/or leaky around the anode thread?
Not yet but I will now! This is all new to me so it's safe to assume that I haven't checked anything like that unless it is mentioned.
Are you talking about the anode that is on starboard side, bottom of the heat exchanger?
Also, what does a bulged gasket look like? I've attached a photo of the gasket I think you're referring to.
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 31, 2021, 09:04:47 PM
Did you check tightness of and/or bulged/leaky gaskets under Hx end caps, and/or leaky around the anode thread?
Well actually removing/checking under the caps should be annual maintenance to assure there's nothing blocking the small diameter tubes in the Hx. When you remove the cap sometimes you see the gasket had swollen or bulged and maybe not making complete contact (replace them) since there's only the center bolt (unlike a pump that has multiple pressure point bolts) sometimes the covers gets bent as well.
BUT if you're POSITIVE it's engine coolant it wouldn't be caps or the anode (they're on the seawater side of the Hx, the coolant side is closed so to speak. A VERY long shot, there's ONE time you could get mixed coolant and seawater out the caps or anode. If a pinhole develops in the Hx in one of the small tubes that carry the seawater (happened to mine) the "radiator cap" pressure pushes coolant thru the pinhole into the seawater side (typically gets carried out the exhaust but (unlikely) a trace of coolant could leak from any hose carrying the mixture.) The coolant level keeps disappearing and the engine overheats with no obvious cause (you don't realize the dropping coolant level is disappearing out behind the boat.)
PS - if that happens to limp back loosen the pressure cap so the coolant isn't forced out thru the pinhole (and slow down!) You may boil off coolant and need to keep a sharp eye, but won't lose as much coolant as it being forced out the exhaust under pressure.
pby : To check if it is coolant, just take a drop and taste it. If it's sweet it coolant!!
A thought
What if it's not coolant!?? I have years ahead of me! :D
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 01, 2021, 03:19:57 PM
pby : To check if it is coolant, just take a drop and taste it. If it's sweet it coolant!!
A thought
Fortunately she's never seen seawater. Not that you can't have problems, but corrosion issues are likely to be less of an issue.
That is a very good tip for a coolant leak, and something to keep in mind! God forbid I need that knowledge but I won't forget it! Thanks!
Quote from: KWKloeber on April 01, 2021, 09:14:05 AM
Well actually removing/checking under the caps should be annual maintenance to assure there's nothing blocking the small diameter tubes in the Hx. When you remove the cap sometimes you see the gasket had swollen or bulged and maybe not making complete contact (replace them) since there's only the center bolt (unlike a pump that has multiple pressure point bolts) sometimes the covers gets bent as well.
BUT if you're POSITIVE it's engine coolant it wouldn't be caps or the anode (they're on the seawater side of the Hx, the coolant side is closed so to speak. A VERY long shot, there's ONE time you could get mixed coolant and seawater out the caps or anode. If a pinhole develops in the Hx in one of the small tubes that carry the seawater (happened to mine) the "radiator cap" pressure pushes coolant thru the pinhole into the seawater side (typically gets carried out the exhaust but (unlikely) a trace of coolant could leak from any hose carrying the mixture.) The coolant level keeps disappearing and the engine overheats with no obvious cause (you don't realize the dropping coolant level is disappearing out behind the boat.)
PS - if that happens to limp back loosen the pressure cap so the coolant isn't forced out thru the pinhole (and slow down!) You may boil off coolant and need to keep a sharp eye, but won't lose as much coolant as it being forced out the exhaust under pressure.
>>> Fortunately she's never seen seawater. Not that you can't have problems, but corrosion issues are likely to be less of an issue.<<>
My M-25 was always freshwater (Ontario/Erie) and developed the pinhole Hx leak (2" Hx) about 11-12 years young, maybe 3-4 years after I got her.
I will keep it in mind. At the moment the amount in the bilge points to something else, but you never know!
Quote from: KWKloeber on April 01, 2021, 04:07:42 PM
>>> Fortunately she's never seen seawater. Not that you can't have problems, but corrosion issues are likely to be less of an issue.<<>
My M-25 was always freshwater (Ontario/Erie) and developed the pinhole Hx leak (2" Hx) about 11-12 years young, maybe 3-4 years after I got her.
Quote from: pbyrne on April 01, 2021, 03:30:49 PM
Fortunately she's never seen seawater. Not that you can't have problems, but corrosion issues are likely to be less of an issue.
Less of an issue???...hardly.
Water corrodes, all water corrodes, saltwater corrodes absolutely. Not much difference if what's in saltwater is rinsed liberally.
That's why we keep suggesting to check your engine when it's running. A saltwater leak from your raw water pump can ruin a lot of metal parts below it.
pby : A saltwater leak from your raw water pump can ruin a lot of metal parts below it - is an understatement!!!!
I've known C34 owners that have had to replace the oil pan because the raw water pump leaked and the oil pan rusted a hole!!!
A thought
pby : Another thing to think about :
If your leak is coolant - that Prestone mix can do a job on an engine mount rubber!!
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 02, 2021, 10:15:28 AM
I've known C34 owners that have had to replace the oil pan because the raw water pump leaked and the oil pan rusted a hole!!!
AND one that nearly had to replace a gear cover!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
Quote from: KWKloeber on April 02, 2021, 11:24:21 AM
AND one that nearly had to replace a gear cover!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
And one that actually had to (Greg Sherwood, on SF Bay). I don't think he ever found one, least last I heard.
Stu I COMPLETELY forgot about that. Yes, I located him one in a boneyard.
Since then I've been trying to get my hands on half decent ones to refurbish and hold, just in case.
I had a leaking raw water pump and for all the reasons stated above, I put it at the top of the list when I found out.
Guys : That's why you need to take a peek at the engine when it is running. The MK I C34s have a door on the starboard side to look at the M25XP water pump and a door in the head to look at the M25XPB water pump.
Those raw water pumps do NOT leak when the engine is NOT running!!! :shock:
A thought
I refilled the engine a couple of days ago and placed some shop towels around the engine.
It looks like the leak may be coming from high up on the engine at the rear of the manifold, where there is a connection that is wrapped in heat protection. Also, it appears the hose on the heat exchanger looks cracked, and needs replaced.
I don't really know what I'm looking at or the implications. Can anyone shed some light on what these photos are showing?
And of course the recover tank, which I think is just up for replacement. I don't see anything wrong with the hose and it looks like there is evidence of the clamp to tank connection leaking. Clamp tension looks ok, but may have been too tight and cracked the plastic.
I see drips hanging on at the bottom of the hose loop, but it looks like something was also leaking down the side of the hull, maybe from behind or at the top of the overflow reservoir?
The exhaust flange and exhaust riser is wrapped w/ insulation.
If you have a leaky exhaust flange gasket or loose exhaust flange bolts, coolant can leak out from the exhaust manifold (It's screwy, but the gasket that sits between the exhaust flange and the exhaust manifold, separates the exhaust path from the coolant in the exhaust manifold. if the gasket is damaged or on backwards, coolant is pushed out the exhaust. For the leak to exit there, there would need to be a loose exhaust flange (joint open) otherwise coolant would simply exit out w/ the exhaust gasses.
A long shot to consider last.
FYI Westerbeke spray paints the engine (and hoses) when it's together so you MIGHT be seeing cracked paint that looks like a cracked hose. I'm not saying don't replace it if it's "past its time."
Replace all the standard hose clamps w/ ABA or AWAB clamps!
ultimategarage.com (http://ultimategarage.com) a good source, less $$$ than worst marine and Steeve is a good guy.
Quote from: KWKloeber on April 06, 2021, 09:43:27 AM
I see drips hanging on at the bottom of the hose loop, but it looks like something was also leaking down the side of the hull, maybe from behind or at the top of the overflow reservoir?
The exhaust flange and exhaust riser is wrapped w/ insulation.
If you have a leaky exhaust flange gasket or loose exhaust flange bolts, coolant can leak out from the exhaust manifold (It's screwy, but the gasket that sits between the exhaust flange and the exhaust manifold, separates the exhaust path from the coolant in the exhaust manifold. if the gasket is damaged or on backwards, coolant is pushed out the exhaust. For the leak to exit there, there would need to be a loose exhaust flange (joint open) otherwise coolant would simply exit out w/ the exhaust gasses.
A long shot to consider last.
FYI Westerbeke spray paints the engine (and hoses) when it's together so you MIGHT be seeing cracked paint that looks like a cracked hose. I'm not saying don't replace it if it's "past its time."
Replace all the standard hose clamps w/ ABA or AWAB clamps!
ultimategarage.com (http://ultimategarage.com) a good source, less $$$ than worst marine and Steeve is a good guy.
Ken would you know what size clamps would you order that would fit most the hoses on my boat? I would like to replace most of them.
Most on the boat or most on your engine?
Quote from: Stu Jackson on April 02, 2021, 11:44:12 AM
AND one that nearly had to replace a gear cover!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
Stu what did you end up using? I know originally JB, but wasn't there another repair material you considered?
Did you use that?
-k
pby : From your pictures, you definitely need to take off your coolant recovery tank and inspect it. I'll guess that the tank is your problem.
To repair that tank pin hole?/crack? I'd clean that plastic and use electric glue.
I don't think that you need to replace your hose clamps - your choice.
A few thoughts
Quote from: KWKloeber on April 06, 2021, 11:02:44 AM
Stu what did you end up using? I know originally JB, but wasn't there another repair material you considered?
Did you use that?
-k
JBWeld didn't hold.
DEVCON did. Wrote a Mainsheet Tech Note about it last year.
Quote from: glennd3 on April 06, 2021, 12:50:26 PM
Engine
[EDIT] P.S.: The clamp size files are believed to be correct, but not guaranteed. :shock:
Hey Glenn
Here's the sizes on the M25, M25-XP, M-35
(I don't know what other hoses are on the C34 boat)
Seawater pump inlet/outlet - 5/8" ID
Hx inlet from seawater pump - 5/8" ID
Thermostat to exhaust manifold - 7/8" ID
Exhaust Manifold to Hx - 7/8" ID
Hx to elbow - 7/8" OD
Elbow to coolant pump - 1" ID
Fuel - usually 3/8" ID, 1/4" ID return
Thermostat/pump to water heater hoses - 3/8" ID
If you add like 1/8" to small hose ID and 1/4" to large hose ID, that's pretty close to the hose OD.
Or use the att'd Shields PDF catalog that gives you the precise OD of each hose.
You can use the attached
PDF cheat sheet (a work in progress) -- it shows the range of each SAE clamp #.
Here's the
Excel of the cheat sheet:
https://c34.org/wiki/images/e/ea/%60kwk_SAE_clamp_size_chart.xls
See both pages in the files - 2nd page has AWAB clamps.
It's based on hose OD currently, I am adding in the actual ID of hoses (column B) as I get time.
It's a bit confusing (don't let it
SCARE you) until you get the hang of it -- the first columns show the clamp and size range / or look across the top for your hose ID then down to see which clamp(s) will fit.
cheers,
-k
Thanks Ken, I ordered clamps from Ultimate garage.