In checking back through many topics on the Message Board over the past seven years, I noted some regarding checking / tightening the C34 keel bolts. I confess that in the eight, soon to be nine years Nancy and I have owned Pleiades I have never checked - or tightened - any of her keel boats. Shame on me!
I checked this site and determined that the hex nuts are 1 1/8", so I just ordered a 1 1/8" hex 1/2 inch "deep socket" that is listed as 5.7" long. Although not specifically listed, I assume the "socket" portion probably takes up an inch, so the "effective" depth is likely about 4.7". Hopefully, this will be deep enough to fit over all of the keel bolts extending into the bilge, and will still allow me to get full torque on their nuts. Since Pleiades is currently on the hard, this seems like the perfect time to check the keel bolts, and tighten them if necessary, since the keel is blocked, and the entire weight of the hull is pushing down onto the top of the keel.
Question: Does anyone know the recommended keel bolt torque? I want to be sure they are "very snug". but not so tight that I may damage the fiberglass.
Paul
Pleiades, 1990 C34,
TR/FK, #1068
Yanmar 3YM30
FlexOFold 2-blade
Wickford, RI
Paul
https://c34.org/search_gcse/?q=Torque%20
Paul... do keep us posted as you work on this. I would also like to torque my keel bolts.
Hi Ken,
The sites you referenced are for torque wrenches. I need to know HOW MUCH torque to apply to the keel bolt nuts.
Although I do not have a torque wrench, I was planning on using the "poor man's version"; namely a fish scale attached to the lever arm of my 1/2" socket tool. I am sure there is a proper name for the tool I plan to use, but it can best be described as looking very much like the old-style "brace & bit" - where the "bit" is a 1/2" male socket adapter that will attach to the 1 1/8" female 1/2" hex "deep socket" I have purchased, and the "swing arm" that looks like a "brace" has a 5" radius.
Thus, for example if I attach the "hook" of the fish scale to the 5" arm, and measure a 30 lb. pull on the fish scale, I will have applied 30 lbs. x 5" = 150 in-lbs. = 12.5 ft. lbs. of torque. If, however the recommended keel bolt torque is, say 50 ft. lbs. then I will use two vise grips to secure a 24" long piece of pipe to the "swing arm". Now, with the same 30 lb. force, but this time at 24" the torque on the keel bolt nut would be 30 lbs. x 24" = 720 in. lbs. = 60 ft. lbs. I know that the fish scale goes up to 30 lbs., and that I can apply 30 lbs. of force with one hand while holding the tool with the other hand.
The only item missing is .... HOW MUCH torque do I apply? :shock:
Paul
Pleiades 1990 C34
#1068, TR/FK
Yanmar 3YM30
FlexOFold 2 blade
In the thread that Ken mentions the torque spec was 107 ft/lbs.
When I had Ohana out of the water for a short haul this past spring I checked them and found that while I did get some movement out of them, it didn't take much to get them to the specified torque.
Hope yours goes as well.
Quote from: PaulJacobs on February 22, 2021, 09:49:11 AM
Hi Ken,
The sites you referenced are for torque wrenches. I need to know HOW MUCH torque to apply to the keel bolt nuts.
Those C34 forum messsges discuss the recommended torque. did you read them?
How you attain those ft-lbs with a contraption is however you do it. No commenting on that.
BTW, the customized google search box (c34 main page, not on the forum) is an excellent first-choice to find already discussed info/issues on the forum, archives, wiki site, etc. Sometimes the search box on the forum page shows up things that the home page google search does not.
K
Paul,
Though your fish scale method will be accurate with the proper calculations and measurements, i might suggest renting a torque wrench from an auto parts store for the day. Often, they have a deal where you get the rental for free when you bring back the tool. The torque wrench makes this job a snap vs trying to meaure with a scale.
Quote from: waughoo on February 22, 2021, 11:04:39 AM
Paul,
"The torque wrench makes this job a snap...."
Alex, "bolt" and "snap" are two words i prefer not to use in the same sentence. :shock: :shock:
Haha Noah!! Didn't even put that together. Especially a keel bolt 8-|
What a great forum! I finally now know that 107 ft.-lbs. is the recommended torque for C34 keel bolts. :clap
That is an interesting number. My original idea involving a tool similar to a "brace & bit" coupled with a fish scale CLEARLY will not work. With only a 5 inch long (0.416 ft.) lever arm I would need to apply 107 ft. lbs. / 0.416 ft. = 257 lbs.! At 28 years of age I "might" have been able to generate 257 lbs. of force with my legs. At 82 years of age "forgettaboutit".
So, I just ordered a torque wrench for the range from 20 ft.-lbs. to 150 ft.-lbs. Since the lever arm of the torque wrench is "only" a little over 1 ft. long, I would still need to apply 107 lbs. of force! Again, not likely at my age. Thus, I will use: (a) a 5.7" long "deep socket" to hopefully engage the keel bolt nuts, (b) a 12" long "extension" to clear the cabin sole, (c) the torque wrench itself, and (d) a three foot long pipe over the torque wrench. With a 3 ft. long pipe, I will "only" need to apply 107 ft.-lbs. / 3 ft. = 36 lbs. of force, which hopefully will not throw out my back.
It will be VERY interesting to learn how many of the keel bolts have come somewhat loose in the 8.5 years years Nancy and I have owned and sailed Pleiades throughout New England's fabled cruising grounds. I have absolutely no idea whatsoever if the PO EVER checked the keel bolts, so it could be many more years since they were last properly torqued.
Paul
Paul
For essentially a one-time use, I'd use Harbor Freight's $30 digital torque adapter that fits between a 1/2" drive socket and a socket handle or breaker bar. It reads from 30 to 147 ft-lbs. It even has a peak mode so after you remove the wrench you can see what you hit without doing headstands trying to monitor the screen.
-k
Advance Auto Parts has a tool loaner program. They charge your credit card when you pick up the tool and issue a refund when its returned.
https://stores.advanceautoparts.com/
They have a 0-150 ft/lbs torque wrench - https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/powerbuilt-tools-kit-68-1-2-drive-needle-torque-wrench-kit-944050/9150050-P?searchTerm=9150050%20OR%209150000
To All,
I think it's good to add your home port to the signature. Perhaps there's a fellow member near by that would be willing to loan out such tools.
Jim
Guys : I made my own keel nut wrench with a 5" "Snap On" socket. It has a "T bar" handle (w/universal) - 105 Ft Lbs is a lot of torque !!
If your boat has never been checked you'll be surprised when you can get 1/4 to 1/2 turns on some of the nuts!!! :shock:
The universal allow you to get at that aft keel nut!! A Catalina Smile doesn't necessarily mean a loose nut, but more probably poor winter blocking - allowing the hull to rotate aft!!
A few thoughts
Paul,
Not all the keel studs are the same length. Some have been able to use off the shelf sockets others have had to make extra deep sockets. Measure your studs before you buy a pricey socket. Here is how I make mine. FWIW Not being the first owner of Shamrock, I started retorqueing the first spring I had her, most nuts took a half turn or more, next spring was very little. I recheck every spring and sometimes get a little more. Shamrock does not have any Catalina Smile.
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7356.0.html
Doing a couple of searches will get a wealth of information.
Jim
I found the aft most bolt to be the most challenging to torque until I pulled the sole over the floor section above it and drilled a hole through the floor large enough for an extension. Now its easy to access and easy to hide.
I have three additional questions for those of you who have actually used a deep socket, an extension, and a torque wrench to torque the C34 keel bolt nuts to the recommended 107 ft.-lbs.
(1) Were you able to manually apply sufficient force to the torque wrench to reach 107 ft.-lbs.? Or, did you need to place a length of pipe over the torque wrench to increase the moment arm? If the torque wrench is only just over a foot long then a force of 107 lbs. would be required. That is probably at or near the limits of my capability at age 82.
(2) If you did use a piece of pipe - what length did you use? Obviously, the longer the pipe the greater the moment arm and the smaller the force required. However, if the pipe is too long then there are clearance issues (mast, bulkhead, base of the port settee, etc.). I am thinking perhaps 2 - 3 ft. long might work nicely.
(3) How stable is this arrangement? I am trying to picture the deep socket on the nut, a 9" or 12" vertical extension to clear the cabin sole, and a torque wrench on top of that being held by PFJ while I am sitting on the cabin sole. Now, I pull (or push) clockwise as seen from above (depending on which bolt and where I have good access) with rather considerable force. Does everything stay stable? Or does the extension move from vertical and the whole business slips? :cry4`Is this really a two person job?
Paul F. Jacobs
Pleiades
1990 TR-FK
#1068
Yanmar 3YM30
FlexOFold 2 B
Fair winds and following seas.
Paul,
I have arthritis in both thumbs and that makes handling tools....."interesting". I say that because I approach most jobs where pushing and pulling against said appendages with more thought than others might...and this would be one of those jobs.
I didn't find that keeping the whole assembly of socket, extension, torque wrench and myself in column to be a difficult task. I do think that Bill's idea of removing the flooring above those aft bolts is an excellent idea as those were the most difficult to access and creating that hidden access point would simplify the whole job immensely.
As it turned out the keel boats on our 1988 weren't protruding above the nuts all that far so a standard deep socket slipped over them without any difficulty.
Hi Eric,
Were you able to achieve the recommended 107 Ft.-Lbs. of torque all by yourself even with arthritis in your thumbs? Or, did you use a length pipe over the torque wrench? And if so, what length of pipe worked best without bumping into everything?
Paul
Pleiades
1990 TR/FK
#1068
Yanmar 3YM30
FlexOFold 2B
Mantus 25
Eric,
I have a Craftsman torque wrench and, if memory serves, I think its about 18" long. It's not here for me to measure. I found that sitting on the floor with my legs out and using an extension long enough to have the wrench above my thighs made it much easier for me. Like rowing a boat. Just take my time and get myself in to a comfortable position for each, hence the hole drilled in the floor for the aft most bolt. If your sole is really slippery, put a rubber backed throw rug down.
Paul,
The length of the average torque wrench makes reaching these torque levels quite achievable....even with bum-thumbs. 8)
My torque wrench is also a Craftsman and I've had it for years, I can't remember exactly but it's maximum torque setting is well above 107. I've torqued the head bolts on a few larger car motors and those get into the 130 (+,-) ft/lb torque range...and it will do those. I'd have to check but I'm sure its length is perhaps 20" or a bit longer end to end and this gives enough leverage to crank down on a bolt head with no pipe extension.
The point is you don't really need any custom or very special tools to do this, the boat absolutely does need to be out of the water and blocked up, and it'll take some leverage and very minor boat yoga to get at a couple of the more interesting nuts....but that suggestion to remove the floor panel and drill a hole over the harder to get at keel bolts is a winner in my book and I'll be doing that the next time I re-torque those keel bolts.
Im curious to know why the boat need to be blocked up to check torque?
Quote from: waughoo on February 25, 2021, 08:53:03 AM
Im curious to know why the boat need to be blocked up to check torque?
The concept, IIRC, Alex, is that you might find it hard to lift that much metal if it's just "hangin' there."
That was my thought Stu. Just wanted to know if there was some other specific reason.
Quote
Im curious to know why the boat need to be blocked up to check torque?
Alex
Thread torque is related to (proportional to) the amount of stress that's on the body of the bolt (i.e., the tightness of the items being drawn together.) Like a bungee around a stack of blocks -- if loose then the pull is easy. As you add more blocks the stack gets the pull will get harder and the stack is drawn tighter together. If you have to include the weight of the keel pulling the two halves apart, plus buoyancy counteracting that, then the torque specification of 107 ft-lbs is no longer valid.
I used a Craftsman "needle on scale" (not digital) torque wrench and had no issue -- my guess it was 24" long. It takes holding the pivot point of the torque wrench with one hand (so the socket doesn't slip off) while pulling on the wrench. Otherwise, the socket extension tends to tip at an angle, and that in itself can affect the reading.
"107" is REALLY not all that critical. They need to be tight but the keel isn't going any place. The hard mung between them isn't compressing one millimeter, and if it does there's a problem with the bedding (as there was with mine,) not with the bolt torque. On the 30, as the wood embedded in the bilge rots (older mk-I hulls) owners have actually drawn down the nuts, compressing the fiberglass, and pulling the nuts/washers down into the floor of the bilge (if the load is not spread by using some widening plates.)
Alex : The boat need to be out of the water blocked or your torqueing is trying to "lift" thousands of pounds of keel!?!?! :shock:
A thought
I am planning to check my keel bolts when I pull the boat in spring. Appreciate all the info, saves time, & money, learning from what others have done is just a good idea.
What is the best way to check if I have wood embedded below the bilge. I have an early 34 #42 & am trying to determine what projects I may plan for.
Ed
Pre '88 had wood.
http://c34.org/wiki/images/6/62/CTY_Pre-1988_model_Keel_Stub_Repair_-_Feb_1996.pdf
Just got done torquing my keel bolts after making a custom deep socket. My forward most bolt has a glass layup that is too close to fit the socket. I will have to work on that at some point to make some room. That said the middle four keel bolts took about 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn. The rest took about an 1/8th of a turn. I have a small smile at the front of the keel that makes me want to sort out the front bolt sooner than later, however, i'm pleased to have taken up what i did on the rest of the bolts.
Sounds about what I got with Shamrock. If remember correctly had to use a universal socket extension on one or two of mine.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200805538_200805538
The deflection was little so I'm confident of getting the right torque, or close enough for me and I'm fussy.
Jim
The only one i had to get creative on was the bolt under the battery box portion of the setee. I had to install the socket and then fit the torque wrench under the sole between the stringers and reattach it. I was then able to reach under the sole to grab the end of the torque wrench to tighten the nut. It was a bit awkward, but not too hard to solve.
Got back to the boat this weekend and cleared the obstruction on the front keel bolt. It took about 3/4 to one full turn. I'm pretty happy to have gotten that all sorted while out of the water. I was quite surprised how much I was able to take up. If you havent checked yours, I suggest you do so.
This is an easy job when you have the right tools. I do it every spring. Each year there's always one or two nuts that move a few degrees.
Don't complicate it with kludge solutions like custom bits and pipe extensions over inadequately sized tools. Buy a deep socket, extension, and swivel for aft-most nut. My nearby AutoZone has a 2' long torque wrench on free loan program. I borrow it every year.
Breaking : If you can get a few degrees EACH year on a few nuts - you definitely need some new lock washers!!
Or something else is going on?!?!
A THOUGHT :shock:
Quote from: Ron Hill on March 08, 2021, 02:58:09 PM
...If you can get a few degrees EACH year on a few nuts...
Except that's not what I said.
Nancy and I finally went to Pleiades today to check the keel bolts. Perhaps I no longer have the strength I once did, but it was a good thing that in addition to a 1/2" drive extra deep 1-1/8" socket, three 1/2" drive extensions (3", 6" and 9"), as well as a 10 - 150 ft.-lb. 20" long torque wrench, I also brought a 3 ft. length of 2" OD, 1.5" ID thick wall PVC pipe as an "extension" for the torque wrench, if needed. I then set the torque wrench to 107 ft.-lbs.
The forward-most keel bolt / nut (just forward of the mast in the 1st bilge compartment) turned out to be the tightest of them all. I could not even budge it just using the torque wrench! However, with the 3 ft. PVC pipe "extension" I was able to tighten it about 30 degrees, which I will refer to hereafter as a "single ratchet-partial turn" or SRPT (i.e. roughly 1/12 of a full turn) when the torque wrench FINALLY "clicked" indicating I had achieved the recommended torque setting.
Next were the twin keel bolts just aft of the mast, in the 2nd bilge compartment. They both took four "SRPT"s , or about 1/3 of a full turn. I was able to tighten the first 3 SRPTs with just the torque wrench, but the last SRPT definitely required the PVC extension before I could hear a distinct "click. Nancy helped by maintaining downward force over the extra deep socket, and also keeping the multiple extensions nicely in column.
Then came the keel bolts in the 3rd bilge compartment - just forward of the bilge pump. Here the starboard nut took 3 SRPTs and the nut on the port side took four. Again, I could only do the last SRPT with the PVC extension.
The port keel bolt in the aft portion of the 3rd bilge compartment (just aft of the bilge pump) needed five SRPTs =150 degrees - or just under half a full turn. Again, the last turn required the PVC extension. As noted by others I could not get at the starboard bolt. I have a "universal" swivel extension somewhere and if I can find it I will try that.
Finally, Pleiades does have a small (roughly 14" x 4") teak & holly section that fits over the 4th (i.e. most aft) bilge compartment, and to my pleasant surprise I WAS able to get the socket onto that nut. It only took two SRPT's, and the second one took much grunting until I heard the lovely "click" of the torque wrench.
We bought Pleiades in October 2012 (she was the former Sylvia II from Savannah, GA, and before that was Suits Us, from Brunswick, GA), had her trucked to Wickford, RI and began the long labor of love. I KNOW that as I never tightened the keel bolt nuts before, it has been at least nine years, and might be as many as 20 years since they were tightened. :cry4` Furthermore, Nancy and I, both being retired, have sailed her 60 - 70 days each year, including 2 or 3 cruises each summer. We have sailed her from Oyster Bay LI, to Bar Harbor ME, in all sorts of weather, including some 8 - 10 ft. seas. Frankly, I am very pleasantly surprised that the LOOSEST nut was less than 1/2 turn from spec! :clap
Now that I have the proper tools I will make checking the keel bolt nuts a "rite of spring". :clap
Paul
Thanks for the very detailed write up. Somewhere in there i saw you were using a pvc pipe as an extension. Though it sounded like it worked for you, I would highly recommend that you switch it for some galvanized pipe or something similar. Id ve a bit concerned about snapping the pipe at an inopportune moment.
As for the nut under the battery box, I used a combination of extenaions that allowed the torque wrench to sit under the floor and pulled it from there. It was considerably more awkward and requite more pulling strength, but it did work for me.
Guys : I went to Lowe's and picked up a 2ft piece of 1 1/2" OD black pipe scrap (free - with a screwed up thread at one end). Then I welded a 1/2 drive socket stud in the end to fit into the 5 in. Deep well socket. I can attach a swivel for the aft nut.
I don't believe that King Kong could bend that pipe!! :thumb:
A few thoughts
Alex,
Thanks for your concern regarding the possibility of the PVC pipe breaking. I had the same thought. However, to achieve 107 ft.-lbs. of torque with a moment arm of 3 ft. (i.e. about 18" slid over the handle of the torque wrench and another 18" extending beyond) only requires a force of just under 36 lbs. Recall that this is 1/4" wall PVC tube.
When I was tightening the bolts - and needed to use the PVC tube to increase the torque - I noticed that just as the torque wrench finally "clicked" at 107 ft.-lbs. the PVC was just barely beginning to bend - perhaps 1/4" over 36 inches. I suppose I could do a stress analysis, but from direct experience it seemed very far from snapping. Yes, a steel pipe would have been much stronger, but I had the extra piece of thick wall PVC tube handy in my workshop - and again while the 36 lb. force was enough to make me grunt, it really is modest in the grand scheme of things.
Again, I really would like to THANK everyone on this thread for all your inputs. I learned a lot. Checking the keel bolts has been "in the back of my mind" for years. Now, it is DONE! :clap :clap :clap
Paul Jacobs
S/V Pleiades
1990 Mk. 1.5, TR/FK
#1068
Wickford, RI