Catalina 34

Hello,

I will be tackling this job in the near future and decided to start with drawing up a diagram of the AC/DC system. I'll post updates as I go along, for those of you that have the expertise or are perhaps even marine electricians feel free to comment on any issues you might see.

I'm not in any way certified and I'm simply doing what I feel is the right way of doing it after years of reading and researching.

Logo,
What software are you using?  I'm about to start diagramming mine beginning with the battery and charging system and just casually started looking for a program to use.

Hi Bill,

I'm using turboCAD v12 but I think you can use just about any vector program. I just liked it and have been using it for a while, although last time I did anything was 4 years ago and I'm slowly re learning.

I find VISIO to be a good SW program for quick simple drawings.

Quote from: LogoFreak on January 24, 2021, 06:59:34 PM
Hello,

I will be tackling this job in the near future and decided to start with drawing up a diagram of the AC/DC system. I'll post updates as I go along, for those of you that have the expertise or are perhaps even marine electricians feel free to comment on any issues you might see.

I'm not in any way certified and I'm simply doing what I feel is the right way of doing it after years of reading and researching.

Seems like your alternator should go to the house bank then to the ACR.  I don't see how the house bank is charged but I'm not an electrician either.

Quote from: mark_53 on February 18, 2021, 10:42:32 AM

Quote from: LogoFreak on January 24, 2021, 06:59:34 PM
Hello,

I will be tackling this job in the near future and decided to start with drawing up a diagram of the AC/DC system. I'll post updates as I go along, for those of you that have the expertise or are perhaps even marine electricians feel free to comment on any issues you might see.

I'm not in any way certified and I'm simply doing what I feel is the right way of doing it after years of reading and researching.

Seems like your alternator should go to the house bank then to the ACR.  I don't see how the house bank is charged but I'm not an electrician either.

That's exactly how it's connected in the diagram.

The return electrical path on the 120v is through the shore power cable.  The 12v return is through the battery sometimes via the engine to the battery.  I suspect having some path for a lighting strike to "earth" via the shaft is a good idea.  Again, I look forward to someone with more knowledge to join the discussion.

Quote from: Ekutney on February 18, 2021, 05:55:38 AM
I find VISIO to be a good SW program for quick simple drawings.

I will ditto that.  it is essentially a poor person's CAD, with (albeit more difficult to do than in full-featured CAD) measuring and precise dimensioned and scaled drawings, etc.

Also, many use Sketch Up.

Going back to the original question:

Is there a reason the AO does not go directly to the house bank (or its + busbar)?

IIRC, most ACRs instruct that the installation to go to batteries with fuses, rather than "elsewhere."

Re wiring the battery compartment today. Love the FTZ crimper, got it after reading Mainsails how to's.

Mostly done, but still need to attach my victron smartshunt and a couple of bus bars.

Remember to balance the batteries.  Don't pull/charge from one end.

Antoni : I'd connect the outgoing negative to the far battery negative rather than connected to the same battery that the outgoing positive is connected to like shown!  Then the current is flowing through all three of the batteries.

Also I would tie down those batteries!!  There is at least one Mainsheet Tech note article on tieing down Golf Cart batteries in a MKI battery compartment!

A thought

see this for (bad and better) ways to connect batteries into a bank

http://c34.org/wiki/images/4/44/SmartGauge_Electronics_-_Interconnecting_multiple_batteries_to_form_one_larger_bank.pdf

Nothings gets passed you guys LOL!
All suggestions are part of my plan, I just didn't have enough time to get it all done and I can't leave the boat without power. So I still need to add my shunt and a couple of bus bars. It will be wired just like the diagram I made.

As for the straps 100% happening, I just need to make a new board for the batteries to sit on as the one that was there has a bit of rot. I'll be using a ratchet strap to secure them all.

Antoni : What I did was to take plywood cut to size and fill the battery indentations so that the battery "floor" was level. 

Then I could screw in tie down strap brackets!!

A few thoughts

Guys : BTW that "Battery Hold Down" Mainsheet tech note article was in the May 1998 issue!!

A thought

Quote from: Ron Hill on March 08, 2021, 02:42:57 PM
Antoni : What I did was to take plywood cut to size and fill the battery indentations so that the battery "floor" was level. 

Then I could screw in tie down strap brackets!!

A few thoughts

Yes that's exactly how it is on my boat but that plywood false floor is a bit rotten so I have to re do it. I think what I'll do instead is make two pieces of plywood to fill the indentations for the batteries and make a flush floor. That way the batteries will sit 3/4" lower, give me a bit more room.

I will be cruising with this setup this year and learning about my power useage, the plan is to move to lithium for next season. I plan on building my own Lifepo4 pack with some Winston cells. I know a couple of people that have done that and are super happy. I know I can fit 700ah of lithium in that space.

I used two pieces of wood to make the bottom of the battery compartment a flat surface.

Quote from: KWKloeber on March 07, 2021, 02:31:35 PM
Remember to balance the batteries.  Don't pull/charge from one end.

Ken,
Are you saying the positive connection on the bank to the "house" or "load" etc. should not be the same positive terminal / bus connection for the charger/alternator?

Hey Bill

What I'm saying is that the positive and negative (load and charger) should not be from the same end of the battery bank.
At a minimum they can be at opposite ends of the bank (but a star connection arrangement is better.). See reply #14.

Has anyone considered a 48V house bank? I know most have 12V systems but that's easy to solve by adding a 48-12V dc to dc converter. The advantage to going to 48V house bank for me personally is that I have an electric epropulsion outboard that also has the ability to charge a battery bank under sail, also I can upgrade my windlass to a 48V model that will require far smaller wiring. Since I am upgrading all my electrical system I don't see a down side. Does anyone?

Antoni : Probably more logical to go for a 24V system than a 48V system!

A thought

Care to explain why? I'm not trying to convert the boat to 24v, only the house bank. Boat systems will remain on 12v, but will be supplied with a dc to dc converter. Only thing I would likely upgrade is the windlass to a 48v model as I intend to upgrade anyway as mine is on the small side of things.

Only thing I'm not sure about is if 48v house bank is a good thing for solar or not.

LF, there are many more discussions about alternate energy systems over on Cruisers Forum, most likely because they deal with boats that are different than our great "but essentially coastal cruisers" C34.

I did a search on "48V" there, and came up with this (I haven't read it, but did note the first paragraph talked about an earlier discussion, too, which you should be able to find).

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/2021-2022-updates-on-48v-for-main-system-bus-255007.html

Happy researching.  :D

Guys : I did the same thing as Ed (post#4) and put 3 Gp29 AGM batteries (105 AH ea.) in the MK I battery compartment.  The third battery is turned side ways. I put a picture in the Mainsheet tech notes. 
I like the AGMs as they are no maintenance and very low self discharge.

A few thoughts

Been waiting for this thing way too long, but it's finally here! Time to get back to this part of the refit 😁

Nice!!  I have been waiting for an ELCI main AC panel to put in my aft laz right by the electrical service entrance.  It will be like christmas when it shows up (perhaps literally as well as figuartively).

It's been a while since I've updated the progress on this project. It's been on pause for the summer as I was using the boat but winter is here and I'm picking up where I left off.

Picked up three lithium batteries, 150ah each for a total of 450ah (360ah useable for 6000+ cycles). Also got a Victron multiplus compact 12/2000/80 charger/inverter.

Got the batteries in and now working on the wiring as well as looking for a good place to install the chg/inv, would prefer to mount it on the starboard side as these boat list to port as it is. Not an easy task, chg/inv is 20"x10"x5". So far best place I can think of is in the cubby behind the backrest, the one nearest to the galley. Would have to cut out a rectangular hole 5"x10" in the bottom of that cubby so that it can fit as there's not enough height.

Have you checked the space outboard of the starboard water tank under the cover? On my MK1 I was able to mount my echo charger and MPPT charge controllers there.

LF,

Good to see you made some progress!  I would be interested to know if you find a stbd side mounting location for the inv/chg.  Moving some weight over there would be great!

Antoni - I'd be really interested in seeing your updated wiring diagram now that you've implemented Lithium in your system.  I just purchased two LiFePO4 batteries on Maine Sail's recommendation (see his latest write-up) and am planning out all the changes I'll have to do on my boat to accommodate them.  In particular, I'm interested in how you'll address the very different charging profiles between your starter battery and the house batteries, and also what modifications you made in the alternator portion of the system.

Detailed wiring diagram is still being revised and polished, but I can explain how my system is designed.

Kept it as simple as possible. Victron multiplus compact (12/2000/80) as my house bank charger, keeping original alternator (I believe it's the 51A but need to confirm), agm starter battery with alternator output going to it. Victron Orion dc-dc 30A charger charging the lithium house bank from agm while engine running.

If it turns out my alternator is the larger 105A I'll get a second dc-dc charger to parallel it in and charge house bank at 60A.

Once I have the completed diagram completed and checked by the marine electrician I'm working with I'll share it here.

Antoni,
As I mentioned, I've been planning out my system also, and I'll admit up front that I'm no Electrical Engineer, but I have been communicating with a technician at Sterling, which has a line of products similar to Victron.  My boat already had a Sterling AC charger when I bought it – the prior owner was an avid follower of MaineSail. 
Here are the issues that I've learned must be addressed when installing a hybrid Lithium and lead acid system, and you may already have considered these, but I'll share them anyway in case they benefit anyone else.  For all you that are EEs, be gentle with me if I've made any errors.

• Since there aren't any AC chargers that can output two separate charging profiles, you'll need to set up your charging profile as a compromise to the lowest common denominator between the two banks.  For example, if the Lithium wants 14.4V bulk and 13.8V float, and the lead acid want to be charged at 14.6v bulk and 13.6 float, set the profile to be 14.4V bulk and 13.6V float.
  Now before anyone jumps on this statement, I know LiFePO4 manufacturers recommend no float charge, and I questioned the Sterling technician about this, and this was his response: "A float charge of 13.6V or 13.8V is below the point a full lithium battery will continue to draw power. Charging at 13.8V will only draw a battery up to about 80-90% full, and if the battery is already above that in capacity then it poses no risk of current flow at all, and only improves the performance on output. Lithium doesn't require a float voltage, but a correctly rated float voltage causes nothing negative in my experience at all and I'm yet to actually see any evidence to the contrary on a lithium iron phosphate system."
  In my case, I'm considering just setting the AC charger to charge the lead acid, and then let the DC to DC charger take care of the Lithium bank.  That way both banks get exactly what they need as far as a charging profile.  I know there's a loss of efficiency with the DC to DC charger, but that doesn't matter as much to me with shore power charging. 
  
• Charging a Lithium bank with your alternator can easily burn up your alternator.  Since the Lithium bank has so little internal resistance, it will cause your alternator to output at a higher amperage for longer periods of time, generating a lot of heat.  This is doubly true if you are running at lower engine RPMs because the alternator fan isn't turning fast enough to cool the alternator efficiently.  Watch this Victron video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgoIocPgOug&ab_channel=VictronEnergy  This is why smart external regulators are typically recommended, which can be set with charging profiles and temperature sensors to regulate the alternator output.  Sterling actually has an external regulator that doesn't require you to remove the alternator's internal regulator – it can override the internal regulator, and it can also use it as an emergency backup if the external regulator fails.
• Since the BMS on your Lithium bank can shut down the charging cycle without notice, you need to protect your alternator from a voltage spike.  This can be done in a number of ways.  One is to always have the lead acid batteries in the charging circuit to absorb the spike.  Another is to add an Alternator Protection Module (APM).  Victron makes one and so does Sterling.
• You will want to take a look at your battery bank switch and think about what will happen in the following scenario:  Your starter battery is fully charged at 13.6V, but your house bank has been discharged to 12.6V.  Someone turns the battery switch to "BOTH".  There will be a sudden rush of current as the two banks attempt to equalize – especially since the Lithium bank can accept a charge so readily due to its low internal resistance.  This could potentially heat up your hardware far in excess of what you would want.  I'm planning on either eliminating the "both" option or else use a switch with a key so that only I will be able to use the "both" option after verifying the charge state of both banks.

Good luck on your project.  I'll be interested in seeing your success.

Emac,

1. Your statement is correct however not relevant to my particular intended installation. The charger/inverter will only charge my lithium bank for which it's programmed for.

2. correct again about alternator frying itself IF it was wired to charge a lithium bank directly. My alternator is internally regulated and will be charging the agm starter battery for which it's been designed (actually it's designed for flooded lead acid but it's ok to charge agm as well. I have to still verify which exact model I have but suspect it's the 51A version, it is more than ok to supply a constant 30A charging current.

3. Correct again, which is why the alternator output is going to agm starter battery. A dc-dc charger will be drawing 30A from alternator output thru the agm battery and charging the lithium bank with an appropriate charge profile.

4. Correct, paralleling in a low battery with a fully charged one will create a massive amount of inrush current. For that reason I don't have a 1-2-B-O switch, just several on/off switches.

Slow progress but a step forward non the less...

Opted for Portside after all? BTW, you can drill some inspection holes under that floorboard to help you guide/rout wires if need be. No need to put covers on them.

Yes, for the time being it's the least complicated location. I will be drilling a couple of larger holes in the floor as you indicated to route wires from inv/chg to a Victron lynx distributor, as well as the ac wires to shore power and ac panel.

That's where my charger is located too. The file box contains my various manuals and instructions for onboard equipment.

Some progress pics. So far I have the main dc disconnect wired in with lynx distributor and the disconnect for the inv/chg. If all goes well and I get the wire I ordered I should have it all running by the end of the weekend.

I dig it!! 

No heat shrink on your switch cable lugs?

Work in progress, everything is going to be well insulated.

Noah,

Wait till you see his case ground on the inverter: SUPER clever solution.

Noah, added the heatshrink, just for you  :lol:

Fixed the alternator output BS wiring, 4ga now supplies alternator output to a bus bar that is tied to starter lug where a 1ga wire is connected coming from the lynx distributor, fused with 200A fuse.

Multiplus install is nearly finished. Just need a yellow 2/0 cable and I can power it on  :clap

 :thumb:
Off subject, but did you ever get your below deck autopilot installed?

It's on the to do after the electrical upgrade. Might get some headway next week.

99.9% done, forgot to bring an Ethernet cable with me to connect to the cerbo gx so that's the .01% still to go.

I'll play around with the system tomorrow and report back.

Exciting news.  Have you made any decision on the lynx shunt yet?

Essentially done, 450ah of lithium batteries, Victron multiplus compact, lynx distributor and a cerbo gx with touch screen. So far love the system, I have so much info at my fingertips anywhere I have internet connectivity. It's awesome  :clap

I just have to tidy up the house bank compartment and I'll post some finished pictures.

Figured out how to share the VRM website.

https://vrm.victronenergy.com/installation/173406/share/7e0fe8a2

I liked seeing all the ruvi tag temp sensors tied into the cerbo.  I look forward to that info being available when I get my system set up.