Towards the end of sailing season, I no longer heard the clicking sound that the fuel pump makes, which makes me believe that it has or will shortly, fail. In my 16 years of owner ship, I have not changed the pump. I read that a Facet pump was original, but I've seen a NAPA replacement mentioned. Looking for the replacement pump # for the M25 engine. Thanks....Jeff
Jeff
Go on the tech wiki- I previously posted replacement model numbers and a source that seemed (at the time) to have a good price.
Mean time between failure on the original Facet pumps approaches 30 years.
-k
Jeff,
Facet builds a pretty reliable product, for cars as well as boats, I've been happy with both. However if you're concerned you should address that concern. I was in the same boat(pun intended), my Facet was about 15yrs old and while it worked fine I wondered about it, so even though it was working fine I replaced it with a new Facet and carry the old one as a spare. It was more a peace of mind thing than an actual problem, you'll have to make that call yourself.
Jeff : I found that the best way to check if the Facet pump is working is to feel it - the pulses are distinctive.
Look at WiKi or remove your pump and go to a NAPA auto parts store and say "Same Same" !!
A thought
Thanks to all. The boat is buttoned up for the winter and I am recovering from knee replacement surgery, so this will wait till spring. Before removing, I'll check to see if I can feel any vibrations from the pump, if not, off to NAPA I will go.
Jeff, or you could try Amazon, here's just a sample:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B01CUHY6FU/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&condition=all&qid=1574615496&sr=1-3
Stu : That was brilliant!! I'd never thought of Amazon. Jeff I believe that Amazon is the way to go!!
A thought
Stu, I spoke to Paul at Facet the other day hoping there would be an application chart, but not. I mentioned that I wont be to the boat till spring and once on, I'll get the info off the pump and he will tell me the correct one to use. I will then check on Amazon. Looks like it depends on PSI and flow rate. Happy holidays to all.
Jeff : The pump that Stu has in his Amazon post will easily work on your small engine. After all even if your pump is NOT working the engine will run because the fuel will gravity feed!!
A thought
Thank you, Ron
Quote from: Jeff Kaplan on November 18, 2020, 02:10:22 PM
Stu, I spoke to Paul at Facet the other day hoping there would be an application chart, but not. I mentioned that I wont be to the boat till spring and once on, I'll get the info off the pump and he will tell me the correct one to use. I will then check on Amazon. Looks like it depends on PSI and flow rate. Happy holidays to all.
Jeff,
There simply ISN'T any information on the pump. Zip, zilch, nada.
What I recommend you do is go look on Amazon for Facet fuel pumps. Then, take a look at the specs for them. Most will be in the range of psi, lift (they used to be called fuel lift pumps because many fuel tanks were below the engines, both on boats and cars/trucks) and GPH that will be adequate for our engines. This is because they are fuel pumps that are used in a variety of applications where the pump is reasonably close to the engines they serve. After all, they are used in cars and trucks, mostly.
Here's how I tracked down what is recommended (on this website and forum):
1. Go to the 101 Topics, this:
Electric Fuel Pumps 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2515.0
2. Read that and in Reply #11 there is this link:
C34 Owner Greg Sherwood, Imi Loa #582, recently needed to replace his (most likely) OEM fuel pump. ... Here it is: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2515.15.html
3. That link gets you to this text:
...new faucet interrupter pumps that should be in by the end of the week.
.8-6psi, 24" dry lift, no locking valves or positive shut off,
32 gallon per hour capacity, 1/8" female pipe threads.
You have to buy the hose barbs to screw into the holes in the pump to fit your fuel hose, which is 3/8" for the fuel supply.
The pumps have a RANGE of psi. It really matters little, because the pump supplies from the Racor primary filter to the secondary engine mounted filter and then to the injector pump which increases that pressure significantly anyway.
I think that should answer your question and taking off your old pump won't give you any more information. This is all you really need.
Happy hunting.
[fuel pump specs]
Thank you Stu, that is great info, muchly appreciated.
Jeff & Guys : I purposely rewired my lift pump to the blower switch and ran it like that for over a year. I did that so I could check the filtering status of the Racor filter!!
I would periodically turn on the blower while the engine was running and look to see if the RPM increased. If it did - It was time to change the filter!!
A few thoughts
Speaking of fuel pumps, do you think mine is about due for a change?
Yep! But I would be concerned about where the "moisture" came from, or is still coming from, to cause it to look like it does.
Quote from: Catalina007 on November 24, 2020, 01:49:29 PM
Speaking of fuel pumps, do you think mine is about due for a change?
Could be. Looks like mine, from my Winter 2020 Mainsheet tech note:
Pic of my "original" fuel pump.
Also found the following pumps on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/OSIAS-volt-Pressure-Electric-Fuel/dp/B073XKVKVZ
https://www.amazon.com/Facet-40002N-Cylindrical-Fuel-2-75-4/dp/B07PMY2YZK
Pic of my 1986 fuel pump.
Yes. The boat is new to us and we are replacing everything but there may have been a
Saltwater event years ago. But everything is running well. Except for slow cranking.
Anyway I think this is a case of information overload. I've read everything.
Do I buy the $90 exact replacement? Or the $40 generic pump?
Guys,
I'd replace those pumps on looks alone. I'd spend the extra 50 bucks and get the Facet, we know they're practically bulletproof, can you say the same for the generic?
Guys : I hate to say it, but if my pump looked like most of those posted - I think I'd cry!! :cry4`
A thought
QuoteI'd replace those pumps on looks alone. I'd spend the extra 50 bucks and get the Facet, we know they're practically bulletproof, can you say the same for the generic?
Quoteif my pump looked like most of those posted - I think I'd cry!!
If the pump was working, I'd call it patina. And carry a spare. Enough to do on a boat without replacing good parts.
Just my opinion.
Jim
Jim,
You're boat, you're choice.
Quote from: Jeff Kaplan on November 18, 2020, 02:10:22 PM
hoping there would be an application chart, but not.
There is - for auto engine mfgrs but not for our diesels.
[edit] - another source for a Facet pumps at reasonable cost is Aircraft Spruce (although they are not approved for aircraft use. Go figure.)
I neglected to paste the models w/ shut-off valves:
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=FACETSHUTOFF
[end edit]
Here's the skinny on Facets for our engines. ANY of them will work and are way sufficient for our tiny diesels. The ratings are there (psi/gph) because they are important for 400 HP industrial Diesel engines and for gas burners, NOT our tiny engines. If you want to verify what I am saying, reach out to Mainesail aka Compass Marine aka RC aka Rod Collins.
The lowest delivery on any of these models is sufficient- but some models (such as the x59E) are easier to locate or are less expensive. So just find the least-cost model. If I was building a polishing system I'd pick the highest gph, but for fuel supply it's irrelevant to our engines.
https://www.facet-purolator.com/tech-information/
Additionally the numerical P/Ns are the pump alone (e.g. 476459E) and ones with FEP (e.g. FEP59SV) are a complete kit (that kit has the x59E pump,) which you don't need because you'll reuse your hose barbs, etc.) So, buy whichever you find is least cost.
BTW, the "E" means electronic (no contacts as are in our older cylinder Facets.)
BTW2, Rod says the Facet cube pumps are better than the cylinders (I don't know why - don't shoot the messenger) and are less expensive.
BTW3, if owners w/ "A" and "B" series engines use one of the Facet pumps with a "positive shut-off valve" the low-oil-pressure shut down will work correctly (fuel won't siphon thru the pump.) I'm referring to the valve above, NOT the check valve in Facet pumps.
BTW4, BEWARE of Scamazon and eBait and Wish and other sites w/ sellers that advertise replacement Facet Gold-Flow "type" pumps, that might even show a Facet picture. They are knockoffs if the word "type" is stuck in the description.
I've used a number of Facet square and cylinder pumps on cars and boat over the years, since I've never had one fail, I'll just have to take your word(or Rod's) that the square one is better.
BTW, shooting the messenger is a good way to send a message of your own.
Kevin : I checked with the Facet engineers and the square facet pumps are the same, but lack the screen that their cylindrical pumps have. If you mount the square pump after the Racor like we all recommend, then it doesn't make any difference.
I believe that the M35BC engines only come with the square pump?? like the M25XPB engines do!!
A few thoughts
Guys : Some might call it "Patina" - I call it neglect!!
My thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on November 29, 2020, 02:40:07 PM
I believe that the M35BC engines only come with the square pump?? like the M25XPB engines do!!
Ron, some early engines with the convoluted oil pressure system had the cylinder pumps - they would have all been the "A" engines (eg, 35A, XPA) that were produced after JHW bought Oshkosh. All the "B"s have cubes. Whether any of the "A"s that have a cylinder pump made it into 34s - I dunno.
What I don't know is if the cubes that Wb used had/have the positive shut off valve??? (It would make sense using those w/ the low oil pressure shut off.). When shut off will your cube siphon fuel?
Quote from: KWKloeber on December 01, 2020, 06:22:30 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What I don't know is if the cubes that Wb used had/have the positive shut off valve??? (It would make sense using those w/ the low oil pressure shut off.). When shut off will your cube siphon fuel?
If the Racor 224 series primary filter housings were used, wouldn't the filter housing itself provide backflow prevention that in the ball check valve? Which would negate the need to have that feature in the pump.
I recognize that not all C34s came with those filters and that other model Racor filter housings and the housings from other manufacturers who may have been used, didn't necessarily come with those check valves in their housings.
And I don't know if the round Facet pumps pictured in this thread had built-in check valves either. I never dissected the two I've replaced, wouldn't know what to look for if I did.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on December 01, 2020, 09:55:19 PM
Quote from: KWKloeber on December 01, 2020, 06:22:30 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What I don't know is if the cubes that Wb used had/have the positive shut off valve??? (It would make sense using those w/ the low oil pressure shut off.). When shut off will your cube siphon fuel?
If the Racor 224 series primary filter housings were used, wouldn't the filter housing itself provide backflow prevention that in the ball check valve? Which would negate the need to have that feature in the pump.
Stu
I tried — but failed!! — to make it clear that I'm referring to pumps with a positive shut off valve, not the check valve (which prevents gravity or siphoning flow back to the tank.). The positive shut off prevents flow to the engine (ie, as when when the low oil pressure safety feature on the A and B engines activates.)
BTW, clicking on each product listed on the link I posted tells whether it has the PSOV feature.
Ken & Guys : I don't know o ANY M25XPA engines install by Catalina in C34s!!!
A thought
Quote from: KWKloeber on December 01, 2020, 06:22:30 PM
Quote from: Ron Hill on November 29, 2020, 02:40:07 PM
I believe that the M35BC engines only come with the square pump?? like the M25XPB engines do!!
Ron, some early engines with the convoluted oil pressure system had the cylinder pumps - they would have all been the "A" engines (eg, 35A, XPA) that were produced after JHW bought Oshkosh. All the "B"s have cubes. Whether any of the "A"s that have a cylinder pump made it into 34s - I dunno.
What I don't know is if the cubes that Wb used had/have the positive shut off valve??? (It would make sense using those w/ the low oil pressure shut off.). When shut off will your cube siphon fuel?
On the Facet pump screw in fittings - Ive seen every opinion and still don't know. Should the brass screw in fittings have sealant and if so what type? PFTE tape? Loctite 243? Plumbers putty?
Cat007 : I like to use #2 Non hardening Permitex on the treads as a "just in case).
I believe that the brass fittings are a tapered pipe thread.
A few thoughts
Quote from: Ron Hill on December 02, 2020, 03:34:05 PM
Ken & Guys : I don't know o ANY M25XPA engines install by Catalina in C34s!!!
A thought
Ron it doesn't matter. It was a generic statement and applies to ANY "A" or "B" engine of ANY size - 25, 35, etc, in ANY boat ( read elsewhere that there are C30 folks listening in, so this all additional applies to them.)
-k
007
The barbs are NPT threads, so you need to use s thread sealant. Your choice, PTFE, pipe dope, etc, so long as what you use is fuel compatible. "Y threads, YC.
NOt plumbers putty (which is not thread sealant, it's for setting fixtures and drain baskets.)
Ron - I'm pretty sure my hull #1150 had the ice blue M25XPA installed. Wish it would have had a M35***
Craig
Craig : That could well be because your #1150 hull was near the end of the C34 Mk I production. As I said before, if Catalina ran out of their "stock" Medalist M25XP (Oshkosh) engines they install - "what ever"!?! Anything to keep the production line moving!!!
A thought
Hey Craig
Long time no see. Does your "25" have the convoluted oil pressure switch/fuel pump shutoff wiring?
Ken - I've been boatless for two years now. No, the M25XP* in my C34 didn't have the convoluted fuel pump oil pressure switch wiring.
Craig
Quote from: Craig Illman on December 05, 2020, 05:36:16 AM
Ken - I've been boatless for two years now. No, the M25XP* in my C34 didn't have the convoluted fuel pump oil pressure switch wiring.
Ok, that was one of the changes Westerbeke made after it bought Oshkosh and (to mimic how it wired its "W" engines) introduced the A engines.
- relocated oil pressure switch off the block, to an accessible bracket.
- a tee on the bracket to accommodate an oil pressure gauge sender (an option on Westerbeke panels.)
- added the preheat solenoid needed for the convoluted fuel pump wiring.
- added a circuit breaker to cockpit panel feed.
- did I miss any, Ron?
So unless a PO ripped out the convolusion I'd guess it wasn't an A series (there's XPs in C30s that are ice blue.) Just a guess that after the purchase Wb changed to blue on Kb engines had on hand or received in before deciding to make the A changes.
Ken & Guys : You hit all the points.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if West-bek didn't take Oshkosh new engine blocks that were partially built up and just spray them with their paint.
Like I mentioned, Catalina kept the production line moving and installed "whatever" was needed to keep it moving. That not only meant engines, but all of the other sub systems - fresh water pumps, running lights, anchor light - just to mention a few. That's why when C34 owners ask "what size bulb" their fixture may be the "one of a kind"!?! OR Frank got a better price from another contractor!!!
A few thoughts