Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: suereal on October 19, 2020, 02:55:29 PM

Title: Engine Mounts
Post by: suereal on October 19, 2020, 02:55:29 PM
I'm replacing my engine mounts on Seaclusion, C-34 MK1, Hull # 364 and have 2 questions:

1. For those of you in the know, should i go to Catalina Direct and order or is there another brand/manufacturer that you'd recommend.

2. I've found one of the (I assume) lag bolts that holds the mount to the stringer in the engine compartment to be broken off. I assume I'm going to have to pull the engine out of the way to be able to access the remainder of the bolt and use an "easyout" or some such to extract it. Less fun than just lifting it a bit.

I apologize ahead of time for the questions, but I have read 101 and gotten some great info also read the the Wiki info (that is not working right now, btw) and other posts, some of which are fairly old (one was by a J. Slocum) So I was wondering if there's been any new developments that would be helpful.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: KWKloeber on October 19, 2020, 03:44:46 PM
First which engine does she have?  The B engines used a different mount than earlier engines.
(It really saves time if you put the engine info in the profile or signature.)

The difference is that the B mounts have a different footprint/hole centers than the older mounts. So to match existing hole centers on B engines, youíre pretty much stuck buying the overpriced Westerbeke mounts. Iíve never located them aftermarket.
 
If on a B engine youíre into completely revamping the mounts, of course the hole centers can be repositioned to be able to use the less expensive mounts.

On the non-B engines the preferred mounts are the Vetus K-75.  The K-50s are too soft. They list for about $85 but you can find them online for about $65.

For the B engines the CD price is the same as Westerbekeís - you wonít find them cheaper because Wb has them price controlled.  Theyíre good mounts, just too Ďspensive.
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: mdidomenico on October 19, 2020, 03:47:28 PM
i ordered my new vetus mounts from somewhere else.  the CD ones were too expensive for my liking and everyone else seemed to like the vetus ones for those that replaced.

as for getting the bolt out.  depends on which one and how much is still in the engine bed.  they're reasonably long.  its hard enough to get them out with the engine in, i'm not sure i could get a broken one out.  but it's just stubborn determination which will say whether you succeed or fail
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: suereal on October 19, 2020, 09:52:14 PM
Thanks for the input.

KW- the Engine is a M-25 XP. I donít know from A or B.
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: ewengstrom on October 20, 2020, 02:51:17 AM
We have the M25XP and I put 4 new Vetus K75 mounts on it last winter, VERY happy with the fit. The front bolt on the forward mount stbd side was broken about 1" inside the engine bed. I had to enlarge the hole until I could access the broken bolt and then remove it. To fix this bigger hole I shaped a dowel of teak or mahogany and epoxied it in place and then re-drilled. I check the bolts periodically during regular maintenance and all are still quite tight, including the repaired area.
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: suereal on October 20, 2020, 07:09:47 AM
Eric,
Thanks for the first hand info. Itís just what I needed. Iíll let you know how it goes.
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Ron Hill on October 20, 2020, 02:03:44 PM
Sue & Guys : The easiest way to tell the M25XP from the M25XPB is by the paint job! 

The original M25/M25XP Oshkosh engines are Bronze while the Westerbeake "B" engine is a Silvery Light Blue !!

A thought

Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Noah on October 20, 2020, 06:49:00 PM
Ronó Are sure that is foolproof method? Mine engine is ďbronzeĒ colored but some parts on my engine where paint was chipped or worn show through blue gray. Is there another way to tell XP ďAĒ from ďBĒ based upon serial number?
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: KWKloeber on October 21, 2020, 12:23:31 AM

The easiest way to tell the M25XP(A) from the M25XPB is by the paint job! 
The original "A" Oshkosh engine is Bronze while the Westerbeake "B" engine is a Silvery Light Blue !!


Ron

I have a bone to pick about that info.

Possibly you have different info, but my understanding is that:

The XP was Universal Medalist (Oshkosh, WI) we all know that. And was "Copper-bronze," mfgr'd 9/1986 to 3/1993
The XPA [and XPA(C)] were Westerbeke (Avon, MA) -- was "Ice Blue," mfgr'd 3/1993 to 8/1996
The XPB - is "Ice Blue"  mfg'd 8/1996 to present.

What I am saying is that Universal Medalist (Oshkosh) did not mfgr the XPA and it was not Bronze -- it was strictly Westerbeke after JHW purchased UM and then changed the XP wiring to mimic what it always had on its "Westerbeke" engines (that is the "A" designation,) and changed the paint at the same time.
So the average Joe can tell the XP (bronze) from the XPA (Ice Blue,) but can't differential between the XPA and the XPB strictly by color.

Are there bronze XPAs in C34s?  Because the XPAs in the C30s are only Ice Blue

-ken
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Craig Illman on October 21, 2020, 05:40:41 AM
My 1991, Hull #1150 had an Ice Blue XPA. I don't think it was repowered by a PO?

Craig
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: KWKloeber on October 21, 2020, 08:46:45 AM

Mine engine is ďbronzeĒ colored but some parts on my engine where paint was chipped or worn show through blue gray.
Is there another way to tell XP ďAĒ from ďBĒ based upon serial number?


Noah,

The under color is Kubota industrial division (vs the typical orange Agricultural division.)  Universal merely over-coated what arrived from across the pond.  These engines were NOT simply pulled off the tractor (agricultural) engine assembly line -- they were specifically configured for Universal.

There is a VAST difference between the pre-B series and the B series -- they are completely different engines [not so for the 25, XP, XPA, XPA(C).]

Some telltales to hone in on which model (there are other differences more difficult to explain):

Seawater pump located center of the gear cover; within the v-belt = Westerbeke B series engine (eg, M-25XPB, XPB(C), M-35B.)

Seawater pump located on stbd side of the gear cover, outside the v-belt = Universal Medalist pre-B series engine (eg, M-25, XP, XPA, XPA(C).)
    * 855 cc (displacement) embossed onto the block, stb side = M-25
    * 927 cc (displacement) embossed onto the block. stb side = M-25XP (xtra power) or XPA or XPA(C).
    * Oil switch located just aft of the fwd port engine mount = "A" series (Westerbeke) (eg, M-25XPA, XPA(C), -35A.)

You can tell the series from the Universal serial number (on the modal tag) or from the Kb serial number (engraved into the block and difficult to locate.)

-k

** There will be a pop quiz on this.

Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: KWKloeber on October 21, 2020, 08:49:55 AM
PS:

I have also seen "silver" XPAs -- probably early XPAs during the Universal/Westerbeke transition; i.e., forerunners to the Ice Blue paint on later XPAs and current XPBs.

-k
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Ron Hill on October 21, 2020, 02:46:35 PM
Ken : I have washed my mouth out with soap for making that ill founded comment about the M25XPA engine!!!
I promise to NEVER do that dasterly deed again!! 

Oshkosh only made a M25 & M25XP engine - NEVER a M25XPA
 
Also promise to never say anything about the C30s - which I'll leave all to you and Max Munger!!

I believe?? that Catalina in C34s, ONLY installed the M25XP (bronze colored) engines from Oshkosh, as the M35 engine became an option in 1990/91 C34 production. 

However, as Catalina has done in the past when they ran out of stock engines - they have even been known to install Yanmars!!

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Roland Gendreau on October 21, 2020, 03:09:47 PM
I replaced the mounts on Gratitude with Vetus K75 mounts which have worked fine.  I replaced the mounts one at a time without lifting the engine;  remove the pin from the mount (use a vice) and slide the mount under the bracket, and reinstall the pin with a nut under the bracket.  You may need to remove a bracket to be able to access and remove the broken off lag bolt.   There are posts describing this procedure.

Roland
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: suereal on October 21, 2020, 05:00:01 PM
Ron et al:

Thanks for the help. Upon further review, I have a copper colored Universal M-25 XP made in Oshkosh, Wisconsin.  It appears that the serial number may be 37. So from this Iím assuming that my engine is an A. Again thanks to all for the help, education, and lively banter. I learn something every time I visit.
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Ron Hill on October 21, 2020, 05:08:10 PM
Guys : As Roland mentioned there is a way to change engine mounts without lifting the engine.  I believe we posted it in the Mainsheet tech notes.  It was first done by "Capt. Al" on Kindred Spirit.

I've done it both ways. 
After cutting the old mounts threaded shaft and removing it, then taking the new mount apart and installing it is the easiest way by far!!  All you need a reciprocating saw to cut the old mounts shaft!   :thumb:

A thought

 
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: suereal on October 21, 2020, 06:16:16 PM
Any thoughts on the size, length, material for the lag bolts?
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: KWKloeber on October 21, 2020, 07:10:53 PM

 It appears that the serial number may be 37. So from this Iím assuming that my engine is an A.


I believe youíre playing hooky from class here. 😳

The XPAs and XPA(C)s were NOT bronze. They were Ice Blue (and at least a few ďsilver.Ē)

If you had an XPA, the model tag would read ďM-25XPA.Ē

Hull #367 - Iím guessing is a 1987?  The XP was produced starting 9/1986, therefore itís plausible that you have one of the earliest XPs (s/n 37.)

Note: if you go looking for parts at a Kubota dealer, #37 is the Universal Mefalist s/n, and has no relation to the Kubota s/n on your engine.

Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: KWKloeber on October 21, 2020, 07:33:06 PM
RON!!

Three Hail Maryís would have been way sufficient.
Youíre right, the c30 MK-II had Yanmars (a superior engine, IMO.)

I tend to shy away from exactly what was installed in 34s, which you and Stu are better schooled in!  I just try to stick to Universal/Westerbeke generalities and the many nuances.
For instance, the 30 actually had two, slightly variant m-25s.  While the 34 (apparently) had only the later variant m-25.   The differences are slight, yet noticeable.

Interesting that, like CTY, Oshkosh did what it needed to in order to get engines out the door. Apparently short on Ob pumps, my m-25 had an OEM adapter plate so that the 202m-07 pump could be installed in place of the more typical m-15 pump.

Max is a short-timer.  SherMax was SOLD!
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: suereal on October 23, 2020, 09:16:39 AM
KW,

Hull is # 364 as stated in the first post. I wasnít playing hooky, but the droning may have caused me to nod off briefly. Originally built in Ď86 and commissioned in Ď87 I am the 3rd owner.

Thanks again for your help, Iím sure this isnít the last youíll hear from me!
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Ron Hill on October 23, 2020, 01:27:37 PM
Sue: When I replaced my original mounts, I went for lagbolts 1/4" longer that the ones that were in there.  You are going into Oak!!

A thought
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Rortega46 on March 06, 2021, 07:04:12 AM
I am looking into changing engine mounts on my M35BC and believe exact replacements are available on Catalina Direct and Westerbeke.com @ $270.60/ea.  Has anyone with an M35B found a less expensive alternative source for theses mounts? Are Vetus mounts an option?  If so which model and where did you source?

Iíve searched prior posts and the WIKI and have not found info on an alternative M35B mount or a source for lowering cost.
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Jim Hardesty on March 06, 2021, 08:33:03 AM
Randy,
Excuse me for replying and not answering your question.  I have a question.  Why do you believe the motor mounts need change?  Shamrock is the same year and I want to know if I should be looking for some problems.
Try a search of vetus.  You may find that helpful.
Jim
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: kh3412 on March 06, 2021, 09:05:48 AM
When the mounts were replaced last year I went with a "lag/stud"
You can bed the lag part in some epoxy so it will not loosen and have machine nuts on the mount.
This gives me peace of mind when the motor has to come out in the future that the stringer holes won't get to loose
to hold.
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Ron Hill on March 06, 2021, 10:59:47 AM
Jim : The main reason that people change out their M35 BC engine mounts is because they spill oil or antifreeze on the mounts and they get soft.  This is especially true of the FWD port side mount under the oil filter.

I wrote a Mainsheet tech note article w/picture on cutting a slot and placing a plastic food storage cup on that mount to protect it while changing the oil filter.  Also how to drill holes in the oil filter and drain most of the oil before completely unscrewing it from the engine.

A thought
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Rortega46 on March 06, 2021, 03:31:47 PM
Jim: I am not sure if I need to change engine mounts but I started looking into it this week.  After sailing on a friendís Hunter 33 with a smaller Kabota I was amazed at the lack of vibration and how quiet it was. However itís possible the Universal M35B and the Kabota are apples and oranges and not a good comparison. Engine vibration also came up this week as I re-calibrated my tachometer and adjusted down idle speed. What is your idle rpm? If I set it @ 800 there is too much vibration, 900 is much better, and 1000 is very smooth but seems to fast and loud for an idle.

Also, with the engine running, I use the prybar to lift the engine which greatly reduced vibration. I plan to tighten the engine mount nuts first to see if this helps. After that I might consider changing engine mounts but need to investigate further to make sure they are bad.  I am not in a rush to change mounts but will be looking for a less expensive alternative if I do.
.

Jim:  it is possible oil may have spilled on the forward mount. I saw your main sheet note about the plastic food storage cup to protect them out. That looks to be a handy hack and I will give it a try before I change oil again. 

Is there a way to test and confirm mounts are bad?
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Jim Hardesty on March 06, 2021, 06:32:16 PM
Quote
After sailing on a friendís Hunter 33 with a smaller Kabota I was amazed at the lack of vibration and how quiet it was. However itís possible the Universal M35B and the Kabota are apples and oranges and not a good comparison.

Randy,
Shamrock runs very smooth and quiet.  Much quieter with the blower off.  I believe the recommended idle speed is 1000 RPMs.  I do have mine set about 800 and throttle up till it runs smooth.  I think it shifts easier and smoother. 
My two cents is to check your engine alignment and tighten engine mounts.  To do a proper engine alignment the cutlass bearing needs to be in good shape.
I don't know of a better way to check engine mounts than with a prybar. 
There was a factory recall on the front engine mounting brackets.  They were breaking at a 90deg bend.  Worth a close look.
Hope that helps,
Jim
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Rortega46 on March 07, 2021, 06:31:03 AM
Jim:
Ownerís manual says idle s/b 800-1,000, and runs much smoother at 1,000.  Iíll leave it at 850 for now. Cutlass bearing changed 4 years ago, and Iíll get the diver to check it when he cleans the bottom next month.  Iíll also take a close look at the front engine mount brackets based on your suggestion. Waiting on bad weather to tighten nuts on mounts, but for now itís good spring weather and time to sail when I can.
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Stu Jackson on March 07, 2021, 09:44:11 AM
.............
............
 Iíll also take a close look at the front engine mount brackets based on your suggestion. ......
.................
.................

Randy,

This is from 2006:  https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2804.0.html

In reply #1 is a link to this:  https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=2738.0

Critical Upgrades, page 1, suggests one checks the engine service bulletins.

May be different brackets, same issue of checking bulletins.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Jim Hardesty on March 07, 2021, 10:19:18 AM
Randy,
One of the great lists here is the "critical upgrades".  Catalina continually upgraded so there is little that applies to the MKll.  The two that stick out in my mind are the motor bracket and a sleeve that reinforces the drive tang for the fresh water pump.   This is from my poor memory so if I'm incorrect please don't beat me up too much. 
I would recommend that all C34 owners read and use that great information.
Jim
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Ron Hill on March 07, 2021, 02:46:57 PM
Randy : Just make the idle at the smooth rpm.  When was the last time (if ever) the valves were adjusted?  Also engine mounts like any other part wear out!!
 
If you can lift the engine with a pry bar and the engine runs more smoothly - I'll guess that you just might have a bad mount/s?

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Rortega46 on March 07, 2021, 06:18:55 PM
Stu, Ron & Jim:  Your comments and the Westerbeke.com service bulletins tell me I have things to do, namely adjust idle up a bit to dampen vibration, tighten/torque motor mount nuts, insure there is a cam shaft drive tang reinforcing sleeve, and check the fuel filter bracket to see if it has a radius or knife bend.  Canít seem to find anything about a factory recall for front engine mounting brackets.  I also need to carefully go through the Critical Updates again to see if something else sticks out since I now know a lot more than when I last looked at it 5 years ago.

Iím now thinking most of my vibration is due to too low idle setting as a result of poorly calibrated tachometer (~200 rpm too low until 2 days ago). Engine runs very smooth above 900 rpm.

I canít overstate how helpful you guys and C34IA are as a resource for keeping things working great.
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: KWKloeber on March 09, 2021, 12:14:28 PM
Jim

Engine mount bracket or are you remembering the notice about the engine fuel filter bracket? (Bracket cracks at the bend).
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: Ron Hill on March 09, 2021, 03:09:46 PM
Guys : As I recall the engine bracket cracking was for the M35 engines (MK I boats) and the new brackets have a welded gusset as a brace. 

The fuel filter bracket (I wouldn't think) should influence engine vibration!?

A few thoughts



 
Title: Re: Engine Mounts
Post by: KWKloeber on March 09, 2021, 05:57:44 PM
Ron

Thx for that heads up - I hadn't seen that bulletin.
I just now incorporated it into the SBs on the wiki
https://c34.org/nonWPWik/?title=Manuals#ENGINE_MANUALS

The bulletin covers the M-25XP(C) and M-35(C).