Looking at moving up from a C28 to a C34. Seems to check all the right boxes and improves all the things that are no longer a fit for us in the 28. Two adults and two teenagers means that we need three real berths - assuming we can get the cabin table up and down (I've heard they can be a problem sometimes). Looking forward to the much better upwind performance (even if we get the WK).
We started looking at the 34 a couple of years ago, but now has the CFO approval, so it might actually happen. We're looking at MK 1.5s, since the Mk2's are just barely out of our price range. Though there's a couple MK2 1997's in NJ for ~60k. If we could get those to negotiate down a bit, we might be able to get into a Mk. 2.
Can't believe how much information is here and it's made it a lot easier to understand the strengths of the C34 and how to do just about everything to the boat. It feels like you can't get much more of a boat in a Catalina without going up to the 40.
The main salon table isn't generally a problem, it usually comes down how individuals like to use or modify them to personal taste. It's been my experience that you should buy as much boat as you can get even if you have to exceed your budget a bit, you'll be happier in the long run.
Another consideration would be how well the boat is equipped and upgraded. Some examples; dinghy+motor, generator, full set of boat covers, sails, etc. You'll pay a fraction of the price for these upgrades that come with the boat as opposed to buying them later.
i would agree with scgunner on buying more boat then you can afford (within reason). i'm happy with my c34, but there are times thinking into the future that i probably should have waited a bit and gotten a c36 or even bumped up into a 40. but most of this is speculative since we don't know how you plan to use the boat.
girmann,
Where do you plan on docking and sailing? I agree, the best way to get equipment is when it's included with the boat you are buying. IMHO a dinghy would make cruising with teenagers a lot better, for them and you.
Jim
Thanks Jim! We're docking in a slip and mostly day sailing in Long Island Sound currently. I'd like to do more cruising, which isn't really possible with the C28 we have now. We have a dinghy and had to upgrade it just to go up the river to get ice cream!
Quote from: Jim Hardesty on July 29, 2020, 08:08:41 AM
girmann,
Where do you plan on docking and sailing? I agree, the best way to get equipment is when it's included with the boat you are buying. IMHO a dinghy would make cruising with teenagers a lot better, for them and you.
Jim
The boats that we're looking at currently I think will work for us, especially since we have older teenagers. I can't imagine they'll want to go on cruises for much longer. It's odd, the 36 is only 1' longer and 0.5' wider than the 34, and its layout down below is worse for how we'd use it. We'd have to go to the C42 to get a real three cabin layout and that's just too big for us. Most of the older boats we're looking at come with upgrades, but also come with things that need to be done - so it seems like a bit of a wash.
Quote from: scgunner on July 29, 2020, 07:44:35 AM
The main salon table isn't generally a problem, it usually comes down how individuals like to use or modify them to personal taste. It's been my experience that you should buy as much boat as you can get even if you have to exceed your budget a bit, you'll be happier in the long run.
Another consideration would be how well the boat is equipped and upgraded. Some examples; dinghy+motor, generator, full set of boat covers, sails, etc. You'll pay a fraction of the price for these upgrades that come with the boat as opposed to buying them later.
My wife and I upgraded from a Bristol 27.7 to a 1988 Catalina 34 last year. We've cruised the Chesapeake annually for over 25 years with our daughter (and often one of her friends) for up to 12 days so I can honestly relate to your current predicament....at least you're thinking about it before they move out.
We're quite happy with this move, the C34 sails so much better than our Bristol it's scary....and the accommodations are outstanding when compared to our old boat. Ohana is a 1988 standard rig/wing keel and I'm not disappointed in her pointing ability one bit, maybe it's due to the fact that my 27' Bristol was WIDE (10' beam) and had WIDE spreaders so that boat's ability to point was not good, but this C34 still points well with a wing keel IMHO.
My thoughts here turn to not just buying a boat that is well equipped, but take the time to find one that has been cared for and not just used. Sometimes well equipped boats are loaded...with old(er) equipment that's in need of replacement or upgrading.
Good luck with your search, hope to see your "new" boats information under your signature soon.
Moving from a Mark 1.5 to a Mark 2 comes with some pretty good upgrades. I have a Mark 1.25 (swim step, but no walk through transom as on Mark 1.5) and I find the following Mark 2 upgrades desirable:
1. Deck stepped mast with compression post. Aside from the debate about which is better offshore in a stinking blow, a deck stepped mast doesn't leak below through the partners as readily as a keel stepped mast. You also don't need to worry about mast wedges or the space between the mast and the mast collar. Those can fall out, make noise, or shift requiring attention.
2. Water heater location. In the Mark 1-1.5 it is under the sink making access to everything else under the sink a real pain. In the Mark 2 it has been moved to under the starboard settee making access to both the water heater and below the sink much better.
3. Engine access. Getting at the back of the engine/transmission in a Mark 1 requires serious boat yoga. I, like many, put in an access hatch in the aft berth to provide better access to the transmission, heat exchanger, exhaust riser, and hoses. It also came in handy while re-wiring the engine and panel. The Mark 2 has better access to this area already.
4. Cockpit/swim step layout. This is pretty good on the Mark 1.5. The Mark 2's carry the beam further aft, resulting in a broader swim step. But unlike many boats, the Mark 2 doesn't take it to the extreme. If you've ever spent the night at anchor on one of the newer Beneteaus when there is a little breeze, you'll likely have experienced the "Transom Slap" phenomenon if you're trying to sleep in the aft berth. The very wide, and flat, sterns tend to "slap, slap, slap" all night.
In addition the above there are little refinements to the cabinetry and galley layout which seem to improve the boat.
For what its worth, we looked at a well kept C36 1.5 and decided we preferred our C34 1.25. The V-berth is a lot bigger, and there was no cabin door on the aft cabin. We also like the mid-ship head on the C34. The C-36s do seem to have better storage however. We also thought the C34 sailed better.
Patches
If I'm not mistaken, the mk2 has a 35 hp diesel, while the previous models have 30 hp and less as you move to older model years.
grim : The table problem is because they have NOT been lowered - ever! Once they get exercised they're just fine.
Most of the C34s thru about hull # 1000 are equipped with a 21 (thru 1986) or 23hp engine 3 cylinder (1987 thru 1991). Above that Hull # thru 1294 they might (an option) have a 30hp engine (4 cylinder). All of the MKIIs have a 4 cylinder 35HP engine.
Great boat, but the older teenagers don't seem too interested in mom & dads sailing!! I had 3 boys and 3 girls. Most grandchildren(11) will eat their way thru a sailing trip !! So just be awhere!!
A few thoughts
Quote from: scgunner on July 29, 2020, 07:44:35 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Another consideration would be how well the boat is equipped and upgraded. Some examples; dinghy+motor, generator, full set of boat covers, sails, etc. You'll pay a fraction of the price for these upgrades that come with the boat as opposed to buying them later.
Actually, this ^^^ is just the small stuff.
Read Critical Upgrades to find out what is REALLY important.
Stu,
If you read my post that you reposted you might notice I said "how well the boat is equipped and UPGRADED". Also, I'm not sure everyone would agree that the several thousand dollars you'd have to spend to get a dinghy+motor because the boat you purchased didn't come with one would be considered "small stuff".
Kevin, yes, of course, you're right. I was simply, and inadequately, attempting to steer the prospective owner to systemic and "under the hood" items that we have learned specifically about the Mark I to 1.5 Catalina 34, that are not so apparent.
You are, of course, completely correct.
Stu,
If I was looking at the purchase of a C34 Marks 1 and 1.5 I'd certainly have a copy of the Critical Upgrades List in hand when I went to look at the boat. It not only provides a good "under the hood" look at the boat, but it also says something about the PO. If the items on the list have been addressed it probably means that the PO overall took pretty good care of the boat.
Not having the Upgrades wouldn't necessarily be a deal breaker for me since the Upgrades are generally inexpensive and mostly DIY. Of course having them done would be a big plus.
In regards to the Critical Upgrades List, I'd be interested to see what recommendations a surveyor would come up with pertaining to the List on a boat with none of the Upgrades.
Quote from: scgunner on July 31, 2020, 08:41:15 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In regards to the Critical Upgrades List, I'd be interested to see what recommendations a surveyor would come up with pertaining to the List on a boat with none of the Upgrades.
Kevin,
Good point. When I had
Aquavite surveyed in 1998, I had an excellent surveyor, who had also surveyed another C34 we'd offered, but it failed survey for a number of un-C34-related issues, including the PO flat out lying about some stuff.
When he saw this boat, he looked up and smiled and said, "Wow, where'd you find this one? You have a winner."
Back then we had a fledgling website, with some very good information, but if you'll check the CU date, you'll see it hadn't been invented yet! The Forum didn't start until 2001, IIRC.
In any event, since he'd been surveying a lot of C34s then, I gave him a few printouts and the link to the website. The really good one is this OLD FAQ: https://www.c34.org/faq-pages/faq.html. It was an early "version" of the CU.
That's why, at the suggestion of one of our friendly skippers, we started Critical Upgrades. And we're very pleased it has helped so many prospective owners, and existing owners, for that matter.
My PO had done the harness upgrade, but not some other things. And then we all discovered some new ones to add to the list. Recurring issues also prompted me to start the 101 Topics. I just hate retyping the same old, same old... :D :D :D
And, to their credit, regardless of what Ken Kloeber keeps saying, Catalina did implement a few of them themselves. Not perfect, for sure, but they did.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on August 01, 2020, 05:29:40 PM
And, to their credit, regardless of what Ken Kloeber keeps saying, Catalina did implement a few of them themselves. Not perfect, for sure, but they did.
Don't be mislead, Kevin. That statement is, well,
not factual.
First, because I don't have a C34 so I am unqualified to talk about its general construction/manufacturing.
Second, there are only two items that I have commented about re: Catalina's defects (because they are common to my C30):
1) Putting WOOD in the keel buss. A stupid, stupid, idea.
It is only peripherally related to the "Cataina smile," which I have stated, repeatedly, was NOT a design or engineering defect. Such as here:
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9226.msg67687.html#msg67687
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9537.msg71727.html#msg71727
2) In Frank's frugality, using fabricated plugs (three of them, reportedly using hot glue in a mold) to manufacture an engine harness, instead of buying Universal Medalist's harness for the M-25/25XP, etc., that had "proper" plugs on them. This created a dangerous fire hazard down the road. See:
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8406.0;attach=6100;image
Frank did zero to stand behind correcting that dangerous (#2) decision. He could have easily offered less than $10 worth of parts w/ instructions for owners to fix the serious flaw. Instead, Seaward devised a kit to
SELL to customers to fix (which indeed
only partially alleviates) the dangerous condition.
A Catalina is what it is -- a well built (for the cost) boat, and which was built better than some other production boats. It's not a Packet or a Swan and doesn't pretend to be. That doesn't mean that certain design flaws shouldn't have been "made good" when CTY discovered it screwed up in design/manufacturing -- even if they were few and far between. I have feelings about Frank's customer service (lack of) after personal interactions when we discussed an issue, but it desn't relate to a design or manufacturing flaw, per se.
There are some manufacturing quality issues, which are mainly caused by the "quality" of techs on the assembly line back the 70s and 80s when CTY was cranking out so many boats in a year.
Having NOTHING to do with Catalina Yachts, I HAVE on the other hand lamented many many times about Universal Medalist's (now defunct) engineering/design flaws and that UM did ZERO to stand behind it's product and "make it right" to correct the flaws (well-documented so no need to beat them to death here.) "Making a mod" (cute replacement words for "correcting design/manufacturing flaws") in engines years down the road is not standing behind products that already went out the door. Neither is UM simply alerting owners about a defect, standing behind its product. Westerbeke has continued less than stellar support and worse, continued some poor manufacturing in certain items, in favor of keeping a few extra bucks in its pocket (these also are well-documented,) and Wb issuing Factory Bulletins (warning about a flaw) is not standing behind its product.
There is no comparing the quality and support between a current Westerbeke "Universal" engine and a Beta or Yanmar. That's fact.
Ken and Guys : I could write a thesis on both of these topics!!!
WOOD in the keel buss and mast step. More than stupid You have a factory that is turning out a hundreds of fiberglass boats each week! You all have mixed epoxy or fiberglass resin. You always have some extra resin left before it "kicks". Why not take that extra and place it in forms/slabs or even coat pressure treated lumber to be used in those busses or step housings???
That STUPID wiring harness. Ken already mentioned the goofy trailer connectors that disintegrated are a fire hazard
!
First of all look at the piss poor DC wiring diagram that came in the owners manual!! It has the battery selector switch, two batteries, and some sketches on the Main Electrical panel shown! Were is the DC alternator??? Where is the DC wiring for the engine instrument panel?? Where pray tell is the engine tach getting its signal from?? etc.?
The 1986 & 87 C34s had an ammeter in the engine panel so it was necessary to send the alternator output to the amp meter (which had an internal shunt). The alternator was a "powerboat" alternator with an internal voltage regulator that allowed the stock 55 amp Motorola output of 50+ amps. for a NANO second before it dropped down a couple of amps!!
Now comes the 1988 C34 (and subsequent production) with a voltmeter, do you change the Alternator Output - hell NO. You still send all the output thru a #10 wire up 7ft to the engine instrument panel and then another 10ft back to the battery selector switch then thru some more #4 wire - till the few amps. left, finally reach the batteries!! This is more than stupid.
Now in the C34s you also make amp hungry refrigeration (4 amps/hr ) an option!! Now ask Catalina what is really needed to support refrigeration and there is NO answer!!
Many Mainsheet and other sailing magazine articles on what is need to support refrigeration in sailboats are finally starting to emerge!
It took me a couple of years to sort out all of that unpublished wiring, to figure it all out and publish it in the Mainsheet tech notes!
I once told Gerry Douglas that Catalina should have as an option - a Hi-output alt., an external Voltage reg., upgraded (marine) wiring and a battery monitor. I guess it fell on deaf ears and not too sure what they are doing now??
But let me tell you it was hell trying to figure all this out by word of mouth, magazine articles and telephone -- early 1990s with NO INTERNET yet!!!
Enough said before I get myself in more trouble. A few thoughts!!!
Quote from: Ron Hill on August 06, 2020, 03:30:47 PM
That STUPID wiring harness. Ken already mentioned the goofy trailer connectors that disintegrated are a fire hazard
!
...with a voltmeter .... You still send all the output .... to the ... panel
It took me a couple of years to sort out all of that unpublished wiring, to figure it all out and publish it in the Mainsheet tech notes!
... Catalina should have as an option - a Hi-output alt....
Ron
I can understand (but not condone) keeping the RV plugs because that's how Universals were delivered (and STILL ARE, different rubber plugs.) Still, after the
first instance of an issue, the engine harness should have undergone circumcision at CTY (in favor of a handful of butt connectors.) But making the mating
hot glue plugs??? C'mon, really Frank?
At least the M-25s in the 30s had a 72-amp Motorola alt option. AND it had external V sense (not that CTY ever ran it to the bank, but....)
Voltmeter... REALLY???? CTY didn't flip the AO right to the solenoid??? It STILL went to the panel?????? WHY?!?!?!?!? That's a new one I heard!! AFAIK, the 30s AO jumped to the solenoid when the VM change was made.
Ken : I just had a long detailed reply that whizzed off into the ether somewhere, but I'll try to answer you again.
Leroy Tank (Oshkosh Medalist tech) Mike Hoffman (Weems & Plath, AutoMac Tech) and Dave Gardner (Seaward tech that had been at Bristol marine) all got tired of me calling them. It was Mike that came to my C34 in Annapolis that figured out that the AutoMac sense wire was connected to the engine instrument panel along with the Alternator output (it took hours to figure that out by chasing wiring) were both connected to that same panel. No wonder my AutoMac wouldn't kick-in and take control of the alternator! He came up with another kind of goofy circuit to make the AutoMac function.
Catalina continued to use the same wiring harness for the Voltmeter engine panel as they did for the Ammeter Engine panel. This continued into the 1993? C34 production because I know of friends with the M35 engines. I wouldn't be surprised if that same thing didn't happen to the C36 MK1s in the same time period??
Why waste a good harness just because you change instruments? - come on Ken, you have to think like Frank!!
I would have thought that the engines from Oshkosh would have come with a wire from the alternator output to the starter solenoid? Did Catalina remove that wire??
Any way by the time Catalina admitted to that screwed-up wiring I had gotten tired of it all and changed to a duel output Balmar wired directly to the batteries. One +pos lead to to each battery and also direct -neg lead to both batteries.
Anyway it would have been nice to have a COMPLETE DC wiring diagram of all DC circuits. I had a "blueprint" diagram of the engine panel from Bristol Marine.
BTW Catalina labels it a DC BUSS BAR in the "abbreviated" DC owners manual wiring diagram!!
A few thoughts
Quote from: Ron Hill on August 07, 2020, 10:21:02 AM
I would have thought that the engines from Oshkosh would have come with a wire from the alternator output to the starter solenoid? Did Catalina remove that wire??
come on Ken, you have to think like Frank!!
Ron
AFAIK, no alt to solenoid cable on any UM engine.
UM never changed its charging setup (or it's panels, which contained ammeters) -- it was CTY/Seaward who only on their end did the AM to VM switch.
That is, until after Westerbeke bought UM, then, yes, the "A" engines (XPA, etc.) came out changed to Westerbeke's wiring standard (same as on the "B" engines,) which jumpered the AO to the solenoid.
Question that continually bugs me is that (
I wish I had been able to pick Tank's brain) UM made DIESEL engines -- then why wasn't their tach AC signal brought through the harness???? UM had a panel w/ a tach -- why make boat mfgrs wire the tach AC separately???!
**Apprently I'd never want to think like Frank. No need to toss a perfectly good harness, just NOT use the orange wire in it! (I used the orange wire to drive an oil pressure gauge.) For all the innovations, this shows how narrow thinking revailed about certain things.
So what are we going with on the wiring harness guys, a can of worms, or a bag of snakes?
Kevin : Just background of both the Can and the Bag.
Would you believe that there are still C34s out there that have NOT changed the old harness out!! :cry4`
A thought
You raise a very interesting point, Ron. So what does that say about the original, much maligned, and feared wiring harness? If there are boats still running around with the original W/H I think you'd have to say that the original W/H has given them 30 to 35 years of reliable service.
Kevin : Salient observation!!
All I can say is that I had added the new Balmar alternator and wired its output direct to the batteries. So I wasn't in any hurry to change out those "gummy" trailer connectors, because I'd already fixed the charging problem.
Maybe 6/12 months? later I finally decided to look at the trailer connector end down at the engine. I snipped the wire tie and unwrapped the black electrical tape from around that plug. To my surprise the entire plug disintegrated and fell apart in my hand!!!
A friend of mine's wife was on his 1992 C34 at anchor. He had taken the dog ashore in the dink. Suddenly the engine started. The wife went over and pulled the engine cutoff. The engine stopped and then started again by itself - she panicked and jumped into the water wanting nothing to do with that boat. My friend came back and found her in the water with the boats engine running!!
I grew up in a house that was built in 1849! It had plug wiring (a ceramic plug that had one wire on one side and the other wire on the other side) the insulation on the wires was woven cloth!! Sure it functioned, but it really wasn't safe.
So to answer your question - that old harness my still be functioning, but it is still a electrical hazard and should be changed!!
A few thoughts
[gramatically Edited]
Quote from: scgunner on August 10, 2020, 07:38:02 AM
You raise a very interesting point, Ron. So what does that say about the original, much maligned, and feared wiring harness?
Kevin,
The harness is manufactured out of parts, and the sum of the whole is only as safe (and as efficient at starting and charging) as the most failure-prone part.
Will a harness give reliable service for 30 years?
Well, will adding diesel fuel to the same tank for 30 years give reliable service? It depends -- how about if there's just ONE crappy fuel fill-up that contaminates the tank?
As far as the harness over 30 years,
1) Has it been subject to 30 years of salt air (i.e., did corrosion wick up the untinned, plain copper conductors with OPEN ends (non-heat-shrink terminals) that roll out a welcome mat for moisture)?
2) Have BOTH plug sets been cleaned, their contacts tightened up, sprayed with non-corrosion, and sealed with silicone tape?
3) How long have the plugs been pumping 50 amps (thru essentially two bullet connectors) that's not rated for that (and coupled with engine heat) have melted a plug (some boats STILL have ammeters and/or STILL pump the AO current to the panel)?
4) Has corrosion attacked the dozen STA-KON terminals at the engine end, and has eaten away the crimped copper and the conductor is about to break (or one has already)?
5) Has the "S" wire barrel fuse been replaced with a decent, weathertight fuseholder?
6) Has proper fusing been added to protect the harness (and boat)?***
If all above have been properly taken care of and the boat is freshwater, the harness will probably last (given that the ammeter fiasco is corrected.) HOWEVER, critical components on a boat need to be designed for the lowest common denominator -- those who invite Murphy on every sail -- not just those where he's an occasional stowaway.
Additionally, some ass/u/me that the engine-to-panel harness extension is the same as the short harness that came attached to the engine. It isn't - the Univesal (engine) harness had fairly decent plugs - either good rubber (Westerbeke still uses them) or hard, white, plugs. The extension was made in-house (or by Seaward/Bristol) using (reportedly?) hot glue inlected into a mold (you know Frank.) SO typically, Universal's plug (on the engine side - black one, below) stays intact and the Catalina engine plug (amber one, also below) falls apart into a gummy bear mess. The latter becomes the fire hazard. and if it shorts out, the lifespan of the harness, and POSSIBLY the entire boat, can be less than 30 years.
I have lamented many times, that a harness
may not need replacing (mine did not) BUT (if the wires are still ok) certain components DO NEED to be replaced (AHS terminals used and plugs eliminated.) If the copper hasn't corroded, once AHS terminals are installed it is fine.
***I'll say it again,
ALL harnesses need to have fuses added (which were on NO harness, ZERO, and even the "A" and "B" engines are improperly fused) and if conductors (the "S" wire) are undersized (many harnesses had 16 awg and it should be 10 awg) it needs to be upsized, and smaller conductors (purple field excite, red fuel pump power, panel gauge wiring) need to be fused where they're powered off the key switch.
Not maligned -- but properly characterized as a critical component that the OEM is failure-prone unless judiciously maintained and properly upgraded.
-ken
Guys,I'm a belt and suspenders guy too. There are a lot of smart people on this site, if their recommendation is to replace the original W/H that's good enough for me. I just found it interesting that after 30+ years there are boats out there with original harness's. What would be even more interesting would be to find a boat with an original W/H and do a thorough examination of the state of that harness.
Ken, Like you I'm a big fan of fuses and believe you can't have to many only not enough. As an example, British cars were notoriously under fused, I had short in the cigar lighter(which I don't even use!)it fried the entire W/H which of course I had to replace and to add insult to injury, when you can find one new W/H for a Jensen-Healey are $1000 a piece! So yeah, I'm a fuse guy.
I just recently replaced mine. The side at the engine wasn't too bad, but the side at the gauges fell apart in my hands after taking off all of the electrical tape holding it together.
Kevin and Guys : The pictures above should make all who have not changed that old harness - BELIEVERS!!, and realize that their Guardian Angel is getting tired of protecting them!! :shock:
A thought