Hello!
I'm a new member and a new owner of a 1992 Catalina 34, moved up from a Catalina 30 (hull #27, https://jeunesse27.wordpress.com/).
Still exploring and getting to know my new boat but one thing has me puzzled. The rudder post seems to be misaligned, I don't see any indication that a repair was done so it leads me to think this was done at the factory. I noticed it when I removed the cover to access the top of the rudder where you'd insert the emergency tiller. The top of the rudder is completely off Center when compared to the hatch that's cut into the deck which is exactly on the Center line of the boat. As if the top of the rudder post is tilted towards starboard and the bottom of the rudder tilted to port, not sure that makes sense?
Took a picture from down below, it's very visible that the hole was cut out off Center. Is this intentional or was my boat built on a Friday?
Here's what's down below:
https://www.c34.org/faq-pages/techdata-rudder-packing-gland.html
I don't recall anyone ever posting your particular issue. Only things I can think of is that the clearances aren't that tight or a PO banged the rudder.
If it works fine (does it?) are there other issues other than appearances?
There is no damage anywhere so it's not a case of someone possibly hitting the rudder at some point. It was deliberately installed this way at the factory which is why I'm saying either by design or built on a Friday. Boat steers fine, although I haven't had the chance to use it under sail. Once I do I'll know if there's any difference at different points of sail and tacks. I'm checking into this now because I intend to install a below deck autopilot and will have to make brackets and such, if it's something I need to correct the time is now and not after fabricating linear drive actuator brackets and installing it all. I have sent a question to Catalina yachts as well for input.
Logo : Hard to believe that the factory misaligned the rudder. I say this because the hull is in a "jig" for most of the production?? but if the emergency tiller cap on the cockpit floor is centerline, then it surely is screwed up!
Don't know what to say because you just might have some problems installing a tiller arm for the actuator?
Where was your posted picture taken from? The aft cabin?
A thought
With the boat out of the water (at least on a MKI), it should be pretty obvious if the rudder is not in the center of the boat or drilled at an angle. The hull shape, skeg and centerline crease, have to line up with the top of the rudder. Caveat: I have no experience with the MKII.
Yes the picture was taken from the aft cabin, aft bulkhead removed. I will take a picture of the cockpit floor looking down at the top of the rudder post tomorrow. I had the boat hauled out during inspection but nothing really stood out in terms of the rudder being misaligned. In a few weeks I might be able to dive and check things out a bit closer.
Logo,
That's a real head scratcher. So your rudder post cap is off center, but your rudder sits squarely underneath the boat, correct? In the picture the rudder post is misaligned but the cable wheel sits square. Questions I have are when you turn the wheel lock to lock does the cable wheel wobble? Does the rudder itself remain square when you turn the wheel? Does the rudder have excessive slop? And what does the rudder post cap do while the wheel is turning?
If your boat is out of the water I wouldn't be in a big hurry to get it wet, looking into the crystal ball I see a rudder drop in your future. Also while you're at it I'd pull that cable wheel and clean and seal it before it goes away completely.
Logo : I agree with Kevin about not being in too much of a hurry to get into the water. I say this because you have a bunch of corrosion on the circular aluminum casting that the rudder cable rides on!! Especially true (not to hurry) if you are going to install a tiller arm for an autopilot this year.
Don't know how the MKII floor mounted emergency tiller cap seals - "O" ring? gasket? But figuring out where your salt water leak is coming from and fixing it, I believe is very important!
A few thoughts :think
Hey! Thanks for all the replies. So the boat is already in the water, it was just a short haul out for inspection and pressure wash when I was purchasing it. As said previously nothing caught my eye in regards to rudder miss alignment while viewing at the boat when on the slings. I didn't remove the inspection cover till after the purchase and back in the water. I am not concerned at all with this, I only want to know if it's intentional or it was a screw up at the factory. I can very easily fix the issue, I just don't want to do anything if it's supposed to be like that. Took a few pictures from the top today.
The boat is getting hauled out next spring for an extended dry dock stay as I will be doing a bottom job, blister repair and epoxy barrier coat.
Oh and also to clarify, this is a 1992 mk1.5 not a mkII
What is your hull #? I believe Ken Juul as well as Glenn Davis both have MK1.5s. Both are C34.org members and recent posters. Maybe they can answer how their rudder posts appear looking down through the emergency tiller Beckson port in the cockpit. Maybe they are all not centered in the hole? Just spitballing here.
I'm hull #1179
I was wrong about Ken Juul's boat. His is 1990. Perhaps if you started a new post asking for "MK1.5 owner's help needed regarding rudder post" you might get more targeted responses.
I'm waiting for an answer from Catalina yachts, until I haul out again I don't think I'll be able to confirm if the rudder is slightly tilted or not. If it is then no big deal I can replace the rudder tube and glass over the hole in the cockpit floor and re drill it. I might even look into upgrading with jefa bearings while I'm at it.
Logo,
I'm surprised this oddity was missed by the surveyor, you might want to have him come out and take another look and get his opinion on this problem, if it is in fact a problem. It looks like it came from the factory like this, which is not great but on the other hand the boat has been operated by the POs for 28 years apparently without issue. Answers to the questions I asked in my earlier post might give you a clue as to how much of a problem this may or may not be.
I did my own inspection, didn't feel the need to spend $700 on a survey. I have more than enough experience with boat repair that I feel confident in my ability to asses a boat.
I got a reply back from Catalina, the fact the top of the rudder tube appears off Center is only attributed to the tolerances when the deck and hull are joined together. I will confirm on next haul out that the actual rudder is aligned and not tilted to one side. I'm fairly confident it's straight as I said during my inspection nothing stood out to me.
If Catalina says it's due to the "tolerances" when the deck and hull are joined together, then it seems to me there is something out between the hull and deck and to compensate and keep the rudder amidships, they had to drill the hole off center. If that's the case, then you might be able to confirm what they are saying by seeing if the mating of the hull and deck are off, or something "out of place" that would require them to make this compensation. These tolerances they refer to do seem extremely wide!!
Logo : You haven't mentioned the KEY point!! Will the emergency tiller fit into the slot on the rudder column or not???
If it does? then you don't have an emergency tiller problem!! If it doesn't then....?? you can decide!? I seriously doubt if the rudder is angled.
You still should address the corrosion on that Edson steering mechanism!!
A few thoughts
"didn't feel the need to spend $700 on a survey" So how's that working out for you?
I have Mk1.5 hull 1192, and have a very similar offset. I noticed it years ago (2009) when I dropped the rudder to repair the seal between the post and rudder.
At the time I verified the rudder was straight. I did not try to figure out why the deck plate did not line up with it. My quadrant also looked like yours due to a leak at the deck plate lock handle. I replaced the entire access plate at the time. Also cleaned and painted the quadrant. And blocked off the the inside of the rudder tube and epoxy sealed, so any future leaks would not allow water to go down the tube and into the rudder assembly.
This past year I noticed the deck plate leaking again, this time around the gasket, so I purchased what I thought was going to be a new o-ring seal from the deck plate mfr. Instead they sent me a 24" length of gasket which I am supposed to fit and trim to size and butt the edges against each other. and hope it doesn't leak. Have not yet installed it. Since I'm still not in the water, I'll take a look again next time I can get to the marina (who knows?) , and see if I can figure out the mystery offset.
So my advice for now is to not worry about the offset. And fix the leak.
forget to mention...... the emergency tiller DOES fit :clap :clap
Quote from: scgunner on April 13, 2020, 05:32:56 PM
"didn't feel the need to spend $700 on a survey" So how's that working out for you?
Totally fine scguuner... you don't seem to understand the question I have asked. There is nothing wrong with the boat, I only was asking to see if others have found this on their boat as well. I have the same amount of knowledge as most surveyors if not more. If the insurance companies didn't require a survey I'd never bother getting one. Boat had a survey done 3 years ago and it passed with flying colours, yet there's a fair bit of blisters on the hull, no mention of that in the report... see what I'm getting at?
I resent your comment, you know what they say about people who ASSume right?
Quote from: Ron Hill on April 13, 2020, 03:12:52 PM
Logo : You haven't mentioned the KEY point!! Will the emergency tiller fit into the slot on the rudder column or not???
If it does? then you don't have an emergency tiller problem!! If it doesn't then....?? you can decide!? I seriously doubt if the rudder is angled.
You still should address the corrosion on that Edson steering mechanism!!
A few thoughts
Emergency tiller fits just fine, there is no issue with the boat. Only reason I asked about the visual misalignment is because I'm installing a below deck autopilot this season and will have to fabricate a bulkhead to bolt on the linear drive. If the factory made a mistake I can easily correct it now, would be harder to do later as I would have to redo what I did while installing the linear drive. I will remove the radial drive wheel and inspect it closer, order a new one if it's necessary as I have to order the AP tiller arm from Edson anyway.
Quote from: Bob K on April 13, 2020, 06:02:17 PM
I have Mk1.5 hull 1192, and have a very similar offset. I noticed it years ago (2009) when I dropped the rudder to repair the seal between the post and rudder.
At the time I verified the rudder was straight. I did not try to figure out why the deck plate did not line up with it. My quadrant also looked like yours due to a leak at the deck plate lock handle. I replaced the entire access plate at the time. Also cleaned and painted the quadrant. And blocked off the the inside of the rudder tube and epoxy sealed, so any future leaks would not allow water to go down the tube and into the rudder assembly.
This past year I noticed the deck plate leaking again, this time around the gasket, so I purchased what I thought was going to be a new o-ring seal from the deck plate mfr. Instead they sent me a 24" length of gasket which I am supposed to fit and trim to size and butt the edges against each other. and hope it doesn't leak. Have not yet installed it. Since I'm still not in the water, I'll take a look again next time I can get to the marina (who knows?) , and see if I can figure out the mystery offset.
So my advice for now is to not worry about the offset. And fix the leak.
Awesome! that is what I wanted to know! Much appreciate you replying to my question with the picture.
I will be doing a lot of repairs and a somewhat extensive refit over the next little while, the leak is low on my priority list at the moment. I've only owned this particular boat for just over a week so still exploring and compiling a list of "to do's" and "Must do's"
This boat as a lot of other Catalinas has a sloppy rudder, next spring when I haul out to do a blister treatment I will be replacing the rudder tube. I will be going with the Jefa rudder bearing system, 0 slop and very little resistance if any. Here's the link if any are interested https://www.jefa.com/rudder.htm
Quote from: Roc on April 13, 2020, 01:23:32 PM
If Catalina says it's due to the "tolerances" when the deck and hull are joined together, then it seems to me there is something out between the hull and deck and to compensate and keep the rudder amidships, they had to drill the hole off center. If that's the case, then you might be able to confirm what they are saying by seeing if the mating of the hull and deck are off, or something "out of place" that would require them to make this compensation. These tolerances they refer to do seem extremely wide!!
Allowable"Tolerances" in aircraft are .00 I think what the Catalina guy meant was Allowaable "tolerances in their boats are measured in fractions of feet.
Looks like Bob K has the same off-set of the tube. My guess is the molds were not made correctly and to get the rudder in the correct place, Catalina had to drill the hole off-center to the place where they "thought" the center would be when the deck and hull were joined. Probably other Mk I boats of the same year(s) are similar to this. I would think your autopilot install should be OK, since the rudder is probably properly centered amidships and the fact that it's off-center in the deck indentation doesn't matter.
Guys : As I said the hull is in a jig. I'll guess that the hole in the top half of the deck is pre drilled before the top deck and hull are mated.
Also it would look funny with that emergency tiller cap hole if it was not centered in the cockpit floor!! Just a poor design of the top half!!
Remember that Catalina was throwing about 1200 -1500 C34 hulls alone (not counting C22s, c30s, and C36s) out of the Woodlawn factory!!
A few thoughts
I wonder what year that "misalignment" was addressed, altered or if it was left to continue in perpetuity. It might be a fun exercise to ask all MK1.5 - MkII members to take/post a photo down their emergency tiller deck plate hole to see if any of them are centered! 8)
My guess is that was never addressed, moulds are expensive to make so I doubt a mould was discarded to "fix" an issue that was deemed not to affect performance.
Noah : The MKI C34 molds burned in late 1993 and I suspect all the design effort was then put into building the new C34 MK II. The MKII was first shown at 1995 Sail EXPO in Atlantic City.
It would be interesting to hear from MKII owners if Catalina finally got the deck mold emergency tiller aligned with the hull ??
A thought
QuoteIt would be interesting to hear from MKII owners if Catalina finally got the deck mold emergency tiller aligned with the hull ??
Here is Shamrocks.
Jim
Thanks for playing, Jim! Apparently in 1992 being "off-center" was still the norm! 8)
Guys : It seems as though the spec tolerance was - "if the emergency till arm fits and turns the rudder" all is OK!?! :o
I would have thought the MKII tolerance would have been much closer to being nearly centered. The MKI deck to hull match had to be for that emergency tiller!!
My thought
Please pardon the slight sideways walk of this question though it is somewhat related. Our cockpit sole gelcoat around the rudder stock cover plate is flexing and has cracked in concentric circles from .5 and 2.5 inches of the plate housing. Is this an area of concern?
December 92, hull 1251
So back in April when I posted my offset rudder post pic, I said I would take a closer look at the rudder before launching. I did, and think I saw a bit of offset rudder. I sighted the rudder against the keel. Very difficult to tell. In the end, there may be a slight misalignment, but it won't make it to the fix it list or cause any worry.
Quote from: Bob K on June 11, 2020, 07:37:17 PM
I sighted the rudder against the keel. Very difficult to tell.
Bob
Are you referring to a lateral offset, or referring to the plumbness of one vs the other?
-Ken
Ken,
Plumbness if that's a word! Sight along each side the rudder and keel. Looks like bottom of rudder is slightly to port. Which matches with the rudder post being slightly to starboard on top as viewed in the access port. But so little, and who's to say the keel is perfectly set on center?
Clearly now we know why some of our boats list to port!
"Plumbobjectivity"
I maintain {STRONGLY) that CTY at some point started installing keels off plumb to correct the unbalanced weight/design (i..e., port list) I have much evidence of this on my C30, but the short story is that when I removed my keel to rebed the joint, it was out of plumb (to stbd at the bottom) by an inch or so, VERY precisely measured. CTY has denied it again and again -- but boy what a coincidence, huh?
When I reinstalled it of course I hung it plumb--and I introduced a port list. Thank you, Frank, for warning me of that in our telephone discussions at the time about the keel removal/rebedding.
Ken
Rudder post for hull number 1279. 1994 model built October 1993.
I'm envious of Jim's stainless steel rudder post access cover on Shamrock. I see that CD doesn't have them anymore. Does anyone know a source?