The Catalina Smile is back :D . I have seen some discussion about this over the years. What is the best way to handle? I am reluctant to start grinding out any part of the keep and perhaps this is just a surface impurity. What is your thinking on this. (Video available but too large to post in the forum).
Cliff : You didn't say, but I assume that you have a wing keel. If so the main problem is that the boat is NOT blocked properly. As I recall the factory told me (30 yrs ago?) that 25% of the boat weight should be on the stands and 75% of the weight should be on the keel - with the majority of that weight on the nose of the keel!!
A few thoughts
Quote from: crieders on January 07, 2020, 10:53:17 AM
The Catalina Smile is back :D .
I am reluctant to start grinding out any part of the keep and perhaps this is just a surface impurity.
Back? What had you done to repair it in the past (apologies if I missed a prior post.) What surface (gel coat?) impurity would cause a Catalina smile crack?
Tho I have a fin, I too thought "How bad can this be? I'll just grind out the surface per the CTY fix drawings and fix it. "
To my shock, 1/3 to 1/2 the bedding (polyester chop/mung mix) was gone (not missing but punky like wet gypsum drywall.) This was from likely a combination of the wood in the keel buss (C-30,) water leaking down the keel bolt threads, and improper blocking exacerbating the crack after the joint had been compromised. After researching and opinions from Geoguon Brothers (West Systems -
excellent advice ) and Frank (useless) I choose to drop, repair (resurface the top of), and rebed the fin.
Cliff my point is that you don't know what you have until you know what you have, and that takes grinding out the joint to reveal the condition. Alternately, I suppose you could drill into the joint in several places to see if the cuttings are muck or competent, and then decide how far to go with your grinding. It won't eliminate any needed work, but you might get a fair warning up-front as to what's in front of you and how to attack it. On the pats of the joint that were still competent, it was a BEAR. I ended up drilling from side-to-side (long 3/8" electrician bit) to create "serrations" that I cut between with a Sawzall w/ a carbide grit blade. Actually BLADES, the fiberglass ate them up like candy.
If you hesitate to grind to uncover the extent and want to avoid the task -- just leave it and hide it cosmetically -- your keel won't fall off.
Ken— I do not believe the 1990 C34 has any wood between the lead and fiberglass in the keel stub structure. It is my understanding that the wood sandwich method of construction in the keel was discontinued in the late 1980's.
Quote from: Noah on January 08, 2020, 04:32:28 PM
Ken— I do not believe the 1990 C34 has any wood between the lead and fiberglass in the keel stub structure. It is my understanding that the wood sandwich method of construction in the keel was discontinued in the late 1980's.
Thx Noah,
(I neglected my usual "Stu" caveat) -- I didn't intend to imply that my condition was identical to the C34 -- only described my condition (and the rationale for grinding vs. covering it up.)
However, water traveling down the keel bolt threads (the prime reason for water attacking the joint and it going punky) isn't dependant on having the wooden plank in place. In fact, I left mine in there as it wasn't rotted.) I believe the plank was eliminated in 88 or 89 on the C30, and my keel hasn't fallen off in the 20 years hence!! :D :D :clap :thumb:
-cheers
Guys : I asked Gerry Douglas when the wood ended in the keels of the C34 production. I printed that hull # in the Mainsheet tech notes. As I recall it was a hull in the low 700s. Sorry time has eroded the exact number from my memory.
A thought
Like many, my 34 isn't completely sealed at the keel / keel stub joint. I know this because I too have some discoloration appearing from a portion of the joint on the outside this winter while on the hard. Saw it last year too. I will likely drop the keel to re-bed this Spring after dealing with / remediating wet wood in my bilge.
I'd greatly appreciate feedback / thoughts from other forum members regarding my "bilge wood project". Rather than re-post, if interested, you can see my recent updates in the "Mast Step / Stringer" post of this forum
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9208.0.html
-Thanks
lots of interesting approaches
yes I had this before and put some flex sealer
Its a hairline crack about 8 inches back on front and both sides
I do have a fin keel.
I talked to Warren Pandy about it and he simply suggested that I create a v-shaped channel and fill it with West epoxy flex and check tightness of keel bolts.
Cliff : With a fin keel I'll guess that you can thank the travel lift operator and the blocking people for your Catalina smile.
A thought
Hi All,
Just had my bottom job done this week. Here is my smile - top photo this weeks haulout bottom from 2017 haulout. Bilge is dry (in summer.)
Lots of excellent information here obviously. I figured some pics may be helpful to showcase one example of a C34 fin keel smile.
Kurt
Ron- Not sure what you are saying/inferring. Can you please clarify?
I'm a little puzzled by the second picture. Aside from looking like it was taken in Australia (which I can ignore), the crack looks to be much lower than the joint between the keel and keel stub, where the Catalina smile typically occurs.
it looks to be in about the same place as mine
[img]
Guys & Noah : The way a hull (especially a wing keel) should be blocked is so that the front jack-stands are just snug against the hull so the boat can not tip over - with the main weight of the boat on the nose of the keel . The stands just behind the keel should be very tight and also with the same with the stands near the transom (load bearing on the 4 rear (aft of center) and snug on the 2 front stands).
Most travel-lift operators want to tilt the hull so the bow is higher than the stern so that any water in the cockpit will run out the scuppers and place a load on the front stands. In that blocking effort if the operator sets the keel (main boat weight) on the ground blocking and then lets the aft strap down further/faster than the fwd strap the hull will rotate aft and you'll stress the fwd joint of the keel to hull - the Catalina Smile. The stern of the boat is always heavier in the winter because the fuel tank is topped off (full) to prevent condensation.
Anyway those are my thoughts
On a separate but related subject, I re-torque my keel bolts while on the hard every year. 107 ft-lb, free loaner torque wrench from AutoZone, and a 1-1/8" extra deep socket bit with extension and pivot attachment for the hard-to-reach nuts. It's so easy to do that there's no reason not to have it on annual PM:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009ALXYOE/
Crescent 1/2" Drive 6 Point Deep SAE Socket 1-1/8" - CDDS66N https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079TL1DP2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_jRPiEb0D4QVN9
Quotewith the main weight of the boat on the nose of the keel
I just want to expand on Ron's comments. When setting a boat to a cradle I have seen a lot of yards not adjust the pads down before setting the boat, they just use the way it was adjusted the previous year. That just isn't right. They won't get the boat exactly in the same position as before and the cradle will flex and change with uneven ground not to mention what happens when they store it. Same as Ron states don't have the forward pads tight, snug is good, keep the boats weight on the keel.
FWIW. See that the pads on your stands or cradle will easily adjust.
Jim
Quote from: lazybone on January 17, 2020, 09:46:33 PM
Crescent 1/2" Drive 6 Point Deep SAE Socket 1-1/8" - CDDS66N https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079TL1DP2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_jRPiEb0D4QVN9
I have that one too, but it's not deep enough to reach the nuts without "bottoming out" on my keel bolts. Use whatever works for you...
Quote from: Breakin Away on January 18, 2020, 01:11:07 PM
Quote from: lazybone on January 17, 2020, 09:46:33 PM
Crescent 1/2" Drive 6 Point Deep SAE Socket 1-1/8" - CDDS66N https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079TL1DP2/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_jRPiEb0D4QVN9
I have that one too, but it's not deep enough to reach the nuts without "bottoming out" on my keel bolts. Use whatever works for you...
Worked on mine?
The length of the stud in the bilge varies (at least on my boat). You need to measure them before buying a socket.
Quote from: Breakin Away on January 17, 2020, 08:17:38 PM
On a separate but related subject, I re-torque my keel bolts while on the hard every year. 107 ft-lb, free loaner torque wrench from AutoZone, and a 1-1/8" extra deep socket bit with extension and pivot attachment for the hard-to-reach nuts. It's so easy to do that there's no reason not to have it on annual PM:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009ALXYOE/
I've found all the keel bolts generally easy to get to except for the aft-most bolt. To make access to that much easier and fairly accurately torque, I removed the sole section and drilled a hole above the bolt just big enough to put an extension through it. I attach the socket from underneath to torque the replace the sole.
Bill & Guys : To get at an aft keel bolt I use a 1/2" swivel on the extension.
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on January 19, 2020, 02:39:43 PM
Bill & Guys : To get at an aft keel bolt I use a 1/2" swivel on the extension.
A thought
Really difficult to get a good torque and reading with a swivel. I found the hole under the sole to be very helpful.
Guys : I wrote this 25 years ago in the Mainsheet Tech Notes : Snap-On -Tools makes a 6 inch deep, 1 1/8" - 1/2" SD socket. You really need to check your keel bolts once when you are on the hard. :thumb:
A thought
I made my extra-deep socket. See my post here
https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=7356.0
BTW I do check them every spring and since the original retorquing don't get any retightening.
Jim
Guys : I believe that the factory used much more than one tube of 5200 between the hull and the keel. As Gerry Douglas commented to me once, "You never heard of a keel falling off of a Catalina!!".
There is so much weight (thousands of pounds) pulling on those 8 keel nuts when the boat is in the water, it's nearly impossible for those nuts to back off.
A few thoughts
I would grind it out a little so you have a clean surface to bond to and then use West System GFlex epoxy to fill it in. I have repaired several CAtalina smiles that way and it almost never returns.