Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Phil Spicer on July 17, 2019, 01:39:39 PM

Title: Starting problem
Post by: Phil Spicer on July 17, 2019, 01:39:39 PM
   Had starter and alt checked out as preventative maintenance. Rebuilt as needed so all should be good. Checked that almost hidden inline fuse and cleaned it and the holder. Added a thin coat of dieelectric grease and  put it together. The first time I hit the starter button I got nothing. Did see volt meter drop. Hit the starter button another time or two and fired up.
   Fired right up last week and went for a sail. When I tried to start up to motor in I got nothing. Had to push starter button 3 or 4 times then the starter kicked in. Same thing yesterday. Had to hit the button several times before I got contact.
   Tomorrow I will clean the contacts on the starter. Pulled the panel and checked for loose contacts, nothing.
   Yes, I removed the gummy bear plugs. Where do I go from here? New starter button? Jack up my documentation
numbers and run a new boat under them?  I turn wrenches, I do glass work, but not wires. Please point me in the right direction.
   If I replace the starter button, how many amps should the button handle? I see 10, 25,and 35 amp starter buttons.
   Thank you for the help and suggestions
     Phil
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: KWKloeber on July 17, 2019, 02:09:33 PM
Phil

Did the shop replace the starter solenoid?  Should have as long as the starter was out -- a very cheap insurance policy.

It can be the S wire circuit - what voltage are you getting on the "S" wire - both when it's connected and unconnected to the solenoid terminal?   When it occurs again you could bypass the whole "S" circuit by jumping directly from the "B" post on the solenoid to the "S" terminal.  See if that eliminates the problem.

Or it can be anything uphill of that (start switch or key switch.)   It's really best to replace the barrel fuse with a weathertight (10 gauge) ATC or ATM fuse holder.    And that quick disconnect on the S terminal wire is problematic over time.  https://groups.io/g/catalina30/wiki/The-%22S-Wire%22-%28starter-solenoid%29-Circuit-and-Engine-No-Crank-Issues

Possibly low battery voltage?
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: mark_53 on July 17, 2019, 02:42:53 PM
Do you have a dedicated starting battery?  If not, it sounds like you have the OEM starter wiring problem and should install a dedicated starting battery.  The wires are to long and to small to work reliably.  This is how I did mine.

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8790.msg63977.html#msg63977
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: Phil Spicer on July 17, 2019, 02:54:35 PM
   Ken: 2 new batteries last year. New solenoid was put on the starter. I do not know the voltage on the "S" wire. I do plan to change the fuse to the new type and use the water proof holder. Saw that yesterday at marina store. It was a 12 gauge wire. Is that ok? It looks like
that is larger than the fuse wire.
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: Phil Spicer on July 17, 2019, 02:58:01 PM
   Mark: I have the standard set-up from 1988. Always start with switch set to ALL.
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: KWKloeber on July 17, 2019, 03:12:31 PM
Phil

The light gauge S wire is an issue. Some (mine) was 16 gauge which is RIDICULOUS  .
It should be 10 ga wire so a 10 ga tinned holder (they're a little tough to locate sometimes) in case you replace the S wire or do a new harness down the road.
I'm looking at like 50 of them right now.  If you want PM me your address and I'd be happy to mail one tomorrow.
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: mark_53 on July 17, 2019, 03:36:15 PM
Quote from: Phil Spicer on July 17, 2019, 02:58:01 PM
   Mark: I have the standard set-up from 1988. Always start with switch set to ALL.

I had mostly original wiring.  I was always unsure if it would start.  After a couple of tows, I installed the start battery and no problems since then. And it will be much easier to diagnose problems. If you don't have the skills you can pay someone but will cost big bucks and you be unsure of what you have.

I would suggest reading up on the information on this site and do it yourself.
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: Stu Jackson on July 17, 2019, 04:54:36 PM
Quote from: Phil Spicer on July 17, 2019, 01:39:39 PM>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Checked that almost hidden inline fuse and cleaned it and the holder. Added a thin coat of dieelectric grease and  put it together. The first time I hit the starter button I got nothing. Did see volt meter drop. Hit the starter button another time or two and fired up. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Grease on the fuse ends?
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: Phil Spicer on July 18, 2019, 05:13:52 AM
   Stu:
     Dielectrical grease repels moisture & protects electrical connections against corrosion. Always talk about corrosion on that inline fuse.
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: Ed Shankle on July 18, 2019, 06:11:41 AM
Phil,
I've had that problem in the past. The first time it was resolved when I replaced the engine control panel (tach had quit), which of course included a new start button and key switch. The 2nd time was with the new panel. The wire from the key switch to the start button on the back of the panel had come loose. No problem since after tightening.
Checking the back panel connections and replacing the start button might be good, quick, cheap steps to try. Good luck.
Regards,
Ed
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: ghebbns on July 18, 2019, 06:34:54 AM
I have had the same problem.  Cleaning the connections on the battery and the ground on the engine block seems to help.  Might not solve the problem, but is an easy and cheap start.
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: Phil Spicer on July 18, 2019, 07:15:22 AM
  Plan to meet family for a sail today. Will check fuse connection and starter wires when we get to boat. Next will be a new starter button. Key switch is 3 to 5
years old. Also will clean those connections on back of panel. Will try one thing at a time
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: Ron Hill on July 18, 2019, 08:19:24 AM
Phil : On those inline fuses I either change the entire holder or replace it with a "stab-in" fuse/holder. 
You might also shine up the battery connections on the starter solenoid.

Check out the starter button with a jumper wire.


A few thoughts
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: Hugh17 on July 18, 2019, 08:28:19 AM
I had the same problem and a local mechanic told me it was a weak starter so I ordered a new one. He put it on and we had the same problem. Then he checked and found that we had low voltage at the starter. We also had low voltage at the batteries. I put in new batteries and was good to go. The mechanic was so upset that he had failed to check the voltage at the batteries that he refused to charge me for his service. I ended up with a spare starter which was fine. I paid him part of his fee even though he argued against it. Bottom line, first thing to do is check your batteries. Next check your main battery connections, then work toward the starter.

You can also have a bad ground so run a test or spare ground wire through the cabin from the starter to the batteries.
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: Phil Spicer on July 18, 2019, 10:26:40 AM
Ron,  New stabbing fuse holder is on its way.  Will try to check all connections today Phil
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: KWKloeber on July 18, 2019, 08:07:35 PM
Phil another useful thing is to move the battery negative cable if it is on a bell housing bolt.  it should be on a starter bolt for the highest voltage at the solenoid and starter.
When you check/clean the terminals, "build" the connections with the heaviest one on first, the lightest one on top.  Remember the battery selector switch terminals as well.
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: kh3412 on July 18, 2019, 08:19:21 PM
Phil if you need a hand let me know.
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: Phil Spicer on July 25, 2019, 01:25:39 PM
   After checking things with the help of a fellow 34 owner we thought the problem may be the rebuilt starter. Took it to the shop and
it checked out good.
   Pulled the ground wire, it was clean, wire brushed it anyway. Wire is to short to put on the bottom starter bolt so returned it to the bellhousing.
Cleaned all connections. All back together and it worked. Over the next 2 hours I started it 6 or 8 times.Started each time. Hope it keeps working.
   A C30 friend came over (after the work was done) and said I should make sure the slip on spade connector on the solenoid was tight. He said that could sometimes causes an intermittent start problem if it wasn't tight. Don't know now, but as of yesterday it has started.
   Thanks to you all for your guidance.
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: Ron Hill on July 26, 2019, 01:36:36 PM
Phil : When I've had electrical problems it had usually been the ground.

I have a duel output Balmar that goes direct to battery bank 1 and the other to battery bank 2.  When I routed those + wires I also included a #4 gage negative that goes from the alternator case to the battery negatives.  The factory + and - battery wiring stayed in place.
When I installed a battery monitor I also included a #8 wire that goes from the negative shunt directly to the negative buss bar on the inside panel above the battery selector switch.
 
So I have negatives "all over the place" and never have had a starting or electrical problem.  :thumb:

A few thoughts

Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: Jon W on July 26, 2019, 03:25:19 PM
Sometimes my wife tells me I have negatives all over the place.
Title: Re: Starting problem
Post by: Phil Spicer on July 26, 2019, 06:48:39 PM
   Sorry to hear that Jon. I understand. On a good note, Boat started again today.
   Ron, I'll Look into those grounds. Thanks