Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Sdsailor on July 08, 2019, 11:42:45 PM

Title: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Sdsailor on July 08, 2019, 11:42:45 PM
Anyone have the new rudder from CD? Mine was installed but is wider and longer than the original. CD says the rudder was built to spec but does this look right? It’s about 3” below the wing keel and about 6” wider than the old rudder as can be seen by the hull fin that used to match the blade of the rudder. Does anyone have  any input on this?  Thanks, Dan.

Dukes On Sunday
Hull 503
87 Tall rig
Wing Keel
San Diego.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 09, 2019, 12:45:03 AM
Dan

Did you get the glass or plastic?
Can you post a pic of your original rudder.
What are the dimensions of the new one?  Do they compare to the dimensions that CD shows?

]edited] I’m wondering why...
You chose the slab rather than elliptical?
Got it thru CD rather than Catalina parts?
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Sdsailor on July 09, 2019, 01:05:28 AM
I ordered elliptical! I will ask for the old rudder when I pick up tomorrow. It’s not glass, but some other material. I did order from Catalina direct. Ugh. I’m worried now.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: lazybone on July 09, 2019, 04:56:25 AM
Old fashioned, no balance, low aspect barn door.  But even worse... it takes more water than the keel.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: MarcZ on July 09, 2019, 07:41:33 AM
Look at the http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Rudder_Modification

Your new rudder does not look like either version

This thing is going to be very heavy on the wheel
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: scgunner on July 09, 2019, 08:04:28 AM
     That doesn't look like any C34 rudder I've ever seen, I think you got the wrong one, it doesn't even fit. If it was my boat I sure wouldn't put it in the water with that thing hanging off of it. Sorry about your predicament but that looks like a downgrade from your stock rudder.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: lazybone on July 09, 2019, 09:15:29 AM
I hate to pile it on but that’s F’ed up.  Cancel that credit card payment.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 09, 2019, 09:42:49 AM
I ordered elliptical!

Dan

What's the p/n on your order?  #F8014 is the CD e-rudder.  Did YOU place the CD order or was this done thru the yard?

Some up-front caveats:
1) I don't own a 34.
2) I'm more familiar with rudder options on the 30.
3) The photos are deceiving -- the skeg offset disappears on the 2nd pic.  Are you sure it's not possessed?
4) I'm not a marine engineer or a marine artichoke.
5) But I better than aced and tutored 10-grade Geometry, so can unequivocally say that the geometry is a blade not elliptical :shock: :shock: :shock: (like CD's pic below.)
6) Someone doesn't know the difference between CD's elliptical and CD's true foil rudders.

It looks (to me anyway) like whoever is supplying CD with blade rudders has just shifted the whole blade aft (very little skeg offset.) which kinda makes sense when comparing the balance of the e-rudder to the OEM blade. (Ron's pic.)

Do not accept that rudder! Hanging below the wing is NOT correct.  No way No how. 
Someone screwed up there big time, even if they did mistake the e-order for the newer foil rudder.  Coming from CTY, Mark should certainly know better than extend it below the wing keel - talk to him when you talk to CD.

Did the yard install this???  If so, they should also have known that (regardless of the shape) and should not have put it on w/o questioning you on the length!!!
You may have gotten a "Yard Job" on top of a "CD Job."
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: lazybone on July 09, 2019, 09:47:38 AM
A four year old with a dull crayon designed that rudder.  Call a lawyer.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 09, 2019, 10:12:18 AM
caveat CD-emptor:

1) This rudder is not the original factory rudder. Don't expect it to look like the original factory rudder. This rudder is not only made from a different material, but is also a different shape. The manufacturer of this rudder approached the design with a clean slate and created a rudder with optimal performance and a true NACA airfoil. The dimensions of this rudder will differ from your original rudder. It is the buyer's responsibility to decide if this rudder is appropriate for his of her boat and use.


If this is indeed an eff-up, the saving grace will be that Dan ordered the e-rudder, not the one installed.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Sdsailor on July 09, 2019, 10:19:52 AM
Ok update. I spoke with Kent at Catalina Direct and he assured me that even though I ordered the HDPE rudder due to oem rudder taking 10-12 weeks,  that it’s redesigned to be rectangular shape. It is still is an improved design and should increase maneuverability and performance. I asked why it’s blade doesn’t match the hull fin.  He said it shouldn’t matter. I get new sails installed Friday and will report back here. Thanks for everyone’s feedback.

Ps. Good info kwkloeber!
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: lazybone on July 09, 2019, 10:32:41 AM
Did he provide the Vaseline when he asked you to bend over.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Noah on July 09, 2019, 10:38:13 AM
Wow! Sounds extremely fishy to me. At very least a bait and switch—even if it sails Ok. It’s your boat, but if it were me I would refuse it and get the “correct rudder” from either Catalina Yachts, CD or Foss /Finco. That rudder you have is not a good choice, will always raise eyebrows and could likely lower the boat’s resale value.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 09, 2019, 10:48:21 AM
But did you order the elliptical or not???
If you didn’t, sorry too bad so sad.  But if you did, it’s not what you ordered.
And no designer, no matter how well it handles should extend the rudder below the keel!!
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: lazybone on July 09, 2019, 10:48:44 AM
Catalina Direct needs to fix this and quickly.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Ron Hill on July 09, 2019, 02:43:44 PM
Dukes : WOW  !!  Ken has included my pictures of my modification of my original 1988 wing keel rudder to Catalina's new elliptical wing keel rudder.  You might want to look in the Mainsheet tech notes and read my article.
Your rudder is going to be so heavy that it's going to be near impossible to control. Definitely get CD to take it back and send you the correct one. Way too much surface behind the pivot point.  I pointed out that with the new elliptical rudder on the MkII C34, Catalina even increased the wheel up to 42" just to take care of the heavier rudder (more purchase)!!
Don't believe I have to say anything about the 3 inches longer (deeper) than the wing keel - do I?  Grounding by rudder first!?!  :cry4`

In another Mainsheet Tech note article I have an overlay drawing of the OLD and the NEW wing keel rudders (also the fin rudders) to send to Catalina Direct so they can see their screwup!  Jerry Douglas sent the drawings to me.

Just looking at your picture I also see that you do NOT have a Catalina 3 bladed Sailor Prop!!!  Looks like you have a Michigan Wheel with a much larger cord surface area!! Don't know the pitch nor diameter, but it may be a large load on your engine!!  Something else to check.

A few thoughts  :roll:
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: KWKloeber on July 09, 2019, 09:22:33 PM

Your rudder is going to be so heavy that it's going to be near impossible to control.


Just a guess but I'd bet the HDPE rudder, though larger, is a no heavier and likely lighter than the CTY fiberglass rudder!

Dan, did Ken quote the different weights?
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Ron Hill on July 10, 2019, 12:40:33 PM
Guys : When you add more surface area behind the pivot (rudder column) of the rudder with the same amount of surface in front of the pivot - the heavier the rudder gets!!  Simple Physics!!

I'm not talking about weight :think, but force needed to control the wheel steering!!

They must have added surface area before the pivot to counteract the much larger added surface behind that pivot or it would be almost impossible to steer!!

However, there is still an BIG issue if that rudder is really 3 inched deeper than the keel!   :cry4`

A thought
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: glennd3 on July 10, 2019, 02:18:37 PM
I have the same rudder as Dan on my boat. Previous owner installed in 16. I have no weather helm compared to my 30. I looked and cannot find a picture but it extends past the hull and is basically rectangular. I have no problems with it.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Noah on July 10, 2019, 02:51:48 PM
Glenn- does it extend aft of the skeg as well?  Hmmm? Glad it sails/handles OK. However, if it was me, I would be concerned that it extends below the keel, which in my opinion, increases the chance of damage in groundings—even light ones.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: glennd3 on July 10, 2019, 04:39:15 PM
It does extend beyond the skeg, but not deeper the keel. Previous owner was very happy with the change in performance, says wife , he has passed. I will also say that I back into marinas,slips and it turns on a dime when backing. In the first picture on this thread I think the photo makes it look longer than it is, mine extends beyond the skeg but if you are not really looking you would not notice.  Like buying a new car you never see one on the road till you buy one and then you see them everywhere. I will look at it this weekend and try to see how far it extends.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Jon W on July 10, 2019, 05:01:59 PM
If possible it would be interesting to see a photo of your new rudder to compare.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Noah on July 10, 2019, 05:57:10 PM
Glenn and Dan- Dan said his rudder  “extends 3 inches below the wing keel” and it looks to extend at least 6 inches aft of the skeg. So, It sounds different (larger) than Glenn’s.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Sdsailor on July 10, 2019, 06:05:41 PM
Glenn that’s good news that your performance did improve. Thank you. I went to the shipyard to retrieve my old  rudder but it was cut up and tossed last week. No matter though, as my old rudder post was bent and as a result, the top of it had to be cut away to make it home. My plan at this point is to tune the rigging, get the new sails on this weekend and give it a whirl. Not sure how much I’ll be able to determine in 7knots or wind. Thanks for everyone’s input!
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Noah on July 10, 2019, 06:27:50 PM
Dan—I believe Glenn has a different size rudder (smaller?) as he says it doesn't extend deeper than the wing nor far aft of the skeg. Also, to clarify, Glenn bought his boat with his current “rectangular blade” rudder installed by the PO, and has only sailed his boat with this rudder—so he has no way to compare it to the original Catalina rudder or judge performance change—only the hearsay of the PO’s widow. On the plus side, Glenn says his boat sails very well and he is happy with the performance, so you may be with your new rudder too. However, if you don’t like it and you ordered the elliptical rudder and instead CD sent you the RudderCraft rudder—then you have recourse to reject it.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: glennd3 on July 11, 2019, 05:37:16 AM
If possible it would be interesting to see a photo of your new rudder to compare.

I looked for a picture while on the hard, could not find one as I purged some from my phone and the one I did have had a car in the picture that blocked a view of the rudder. I will be at the boat this weekend and I believe I can get a picture of the top of the rudder in the water.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Steve_in_lex on July 11, 2019, 06:42:33 AM
Our PO got the CD rudder so I haven't used anything else.  It looks weird but seems to steer fine.  Reverse is often a problem.  Picture attached.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Ben H. on July 11, 2019, 07:26:24 AM
For reference, back in in 2016 I installed a new rudder that I purchased Direct from Catalina Yachts. I believe at the time their quoted price was better the CD. The PO had broken off the original rudder. Here is an image of the new rudder installed.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Ron Hill on July 11, 2019, 02:11:08 PM
Steve : Your rudder doesn't look deeper than the keel!?!   :clap
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: glennd3 on July 11, 2019, 06:04:32 PM
https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-34/hull-deck/stern/rudders/rudder-c-34-c-36hdpe-unifoil-wing-keels/

I looked at CD website I believe I have model 8036 HDPE which states the following, which I believe is what I am experiencing when sailing. I do not fight the wheel, easy to sail.

Our Catalina 34 and Catalina 36 rudder's balanced shape moves the center of effort of the rudder forward for a lighter helm. This rudder offers a vastly improved shape you can see when compared to the original Catalina 34 and 36 rudder's. It is an NACA (National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics) 0012 airfoil considered by many sailboat designers to be the ideal combination of maximum lift with minimal drag.

I did some searches for 0012 airfoil but got caught in a physics lesson!
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Noah on July 11, 2019, 06:30:52 PM
Glenn- do you have the drain holes drilled in the bottom as manufacturer recommends?

https://www.catalinadirect.com/high-density-polyethylene-spade-rudders/
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: glennd3 on July 11, 2019, 06:38:56 PM
Glenn- do you have the drain holes drilled in the bottom as manufacturer recommends?

https://www.catalinadirect.com/high-density-polyethylene-spade-rudders/

Yes, although I did not check to see if they we closed after I painted. I will check and make sure to open them when hauled this year
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Sdsailor on August 08, 2019, 10:42:53 PM
Update: I motor-sailed from San Diego up the coast to Dana point.  From there on to Catalina Island and circumnavigated the island, before returning back to SD. 150+nm. I had no complaints about this new rudder. I was pleasantly surprised at its ease of handling or extra drag. It was very light wind so I can’t comment beyond 15knots . But at this point, I’m happy. 
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: glennd3 on August 09, 2019, 12:53:09 PM
Great! That is the way I feel about mine too.
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Stu Jackson on August 09, 2019, 03:25:39 PM
Thanks for the update.  That kind of input is invaluable and really appreciated for those who have similar issues and are looking for resolution.  Sounded like a nice trip, too!  :D
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Ron Hill on August 10, 2019, 01:16:17 PM
Guys : As Stu said "this kind of information" on our Message Board is invaluable!!.  Even thought that rudder (not designed by the factory) looks lopsided!  From your reports though, it has enough surface area in-front of the pivot to counterbalance the increased surface area behind that pivot.
 
That new design should give outstanding control in winds above 15 kts especially for the C34s with a wing keel. The original factory MKI wing keel rudder would allow the boat to "uncontrollably" head-up into the wind above 15 kts while beating!!  Even with the new elliptical design (MKI) it countered the uncontrolled heading up, however because of the additional surface area behind the pivot, the rudder it was much "heavier" to steer!  That's why the MKII (I pointed out in a Mainsheet technote article) went to a much larger wheel!

Great Information all -  keep it up  !!   :thumb:

A few thoughts
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Noah on August 10, 2019, 02:10:49 PM
The concern I have Is with the wing keel and that foil-style rudder and the fact that he said HIS rudder extends deeper than his keel. This may pose a problem in shallow water. If you ground the boat, better to hit the keel than the rudder. I think CD has an option for a shorter version of that foil rudder for wing keel boats?
Title: Re: New Rudder Oversized?
Post by: Ron Hill on August 11, 2019, 03:01:02 PM
Noah has a VERY good point.  If in-fact that rudder is deeper than the keel I wouldn't touch it. I surely would not want to go aground with the rudder touching first!!

There is an old sailors saying about going aground, "Those that have never been aground are either lieing or abiding their time until they do"!!

A thought