Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Jeff Tancock on May 14, 2019, 07:06:13 AM

Title: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jeff Tancock on May 14, 2019, 07:06:13 AM
Looking for some thoughts and group wisdom regarding my engine's poor behavior.
I have a 25XP. Owned over 25 years.
It has always run the same. It's always been hard to start. Full throttle in gear has always been 2600RPM pushing boat at approx. 6.5 knots depending on condition of the bottom.
Full throttle in neutral has been 3200 RPM.
Took her out for a spin recently. Still hard to start, full throttle in neutral is 2800 and in gear 2100. boat speed 5.4 knots. Had this problem at end of last year but it might be a bit worse. Not sure.
Something is definitely wrong.
Hauled last year so shouldn't be the problem. Fuel pump ticks away as usual and I have been told (or read) that these old pumps either work or not...not in between.
No big smoke to indicate injectors.
Recently replaced both water pumps.
Suggestions??????
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jon W on May 14, 2019, 07:35:49 AM
Have you checked the throttle cable clamp(?) at the engine didn’t slide out of place?
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jeff Tancock on May 14, 2019, 07:44:54 AM
Yes I did check for that. It has slipped out before.
Thanks for the suggestion though.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Ron Hill on May 14, 2019, 02:39:40 PM
Jeff : Have you ever replaced your injectors?  Have you checked your engine RPM instrument readings with a digital laser tach? 

On the hard starting have you changed the glow plug wiring to the solenoid upgrade?

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jeff Tancock on May 14, 2019, 02:49:26 PM
Thanks for your thoughts Ron.
I've done the wiring upgrade. It turns over with lots of power but doesn't fire up. Seems like a fuel issue???
I have not done anything to the injectors....ever. Does it sound like an injector issue to you?
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Roland Gendreau on May 14, 2019, 06:12:12 PM
Could be multiple issues.

Suggest you verify that the glow plugs are functioning properly.
Have the fuel filters been serviced?
Any chance something is blocking the air filter intake?
Are you sure the throttle is opening 100%?
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jeff Tancock on May 15, 2019, 07:20:09 AM
Glow plugs? I can't be sure they are working properly but the volt meter does dip significantly when engaged.
Both fuel filters changed and I checked the filter in the facet fuel pump.
Took off the air filter It's clear and made no difference.
I think the throttle opens until it hits the nut acting as a governor. I've looked at that but will double check that today.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Ron Hill on May 15, 2019, 03:18:53 PM
Jeff : Hard to believe that you are still using 31 year old injectors!  I'd spring for some new ones.
Have you checked your engine instrument tach against a laser digital tach??
Have you change your glow plug wiring so you now use a solenoid?  Look in the critical updates!!  You could (maybe) use a new glow plug or two??  Pull them and inspect them!!

A few thoughts for answers!!
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Roland Gendreau on May 16, 2019, 02:53:33 PM
My NAPA fuel pump failed but continued to exhibit the tick, tick, tick.  It wasn't till I disconnected the output hose from the pump to use it to pump out my fuel tank that I found out it wasn't pumping at all.   

So don't assume the pump is working just because it is making the noise.



Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jeff Tancock on May 17, 2019, 08:15:26 AM
All good thoughts
I just did a 4 hour run at full throttle and it runs well, just doesn't have the top end. The last 20% of throttle doesn't change anything.
I am thinking that I will change the fuel pump first after hearing that the ticking doesn't mean the pump is healthy. (Thanks Roland).
Even if that takes care of it I will pull the injectors and have a look at the glow plugs as they are both high on my suspect list.
I've read up on pulling the injectors but know nothing about pulling glow plugs.
Thanks for all your thoughts.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Ron Hill on May 17, 2019, 01:13:59 PM
Jeff : To remove a glow plug : remove wiring, insert socket over G plug and back it out!!

BTW, because the fuel tank is higher than the engine (just like Roland attested to!!) the fuel will gravity flow and keep the engine running when the lift (fuel) pump is not operating!!

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Roland Gendreau on May 17, 2019, 01:48:34 PM
When my fuel pump malfunctioned, the engine went from full power to stalled.  After a few minutes, I restarted it but could not run the engine at much more than idle even with the level of fuel in the tank more than half full.    Although the tank is higher than the engine, I believe the malfunctioning pump and maybe the Racor were obstacles to gravity fuel flow.

Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jeff Tancock on May 18, 2019, 10:05:57 AM
Before I buy the new pump does anyone have any recomendations or remorse after buying either the NAPA 610-1051, the Pro13SV or the FAC 40105 CUBE model?
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jon W on May 18, 2019, 11:47:43 AM
FWIW if you're in California - Yacht Supply Depot is listed in the Tech WIKI as a low price supplier, but they don't ship to California. I just ordered a Gold Flo series cylindrical pump 476087E for $79.95 from Aircraft Spruce who does ship to California. Others online are selling this same pump for between $87-$122. I haven't received it yet but it's on its way.

Sounds like you're looking at the "cube" series not the cylindrical. A quick look and the NAPA price is $66, these two suppliers are ~$37. From a price point of view it's worth taking a look before buying from NAPA or someone else.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Ron Hill on May 18, 2019, 01:43:14 PM
Guys : I ran my M25XP engine with out a lift pump for over a year.  I had wired the electric fuel pump to the blower instead of the ON pole of the ignition switch.  We traveled from the Potomac to Key West and back like that - we did not travel like that with the engine in idle!!
I would periodically turn ON the blower and note if the RPM increased.  It usually didn't - if it did I changed out the Racor filter and then the RPM remained the SAME!!

Jeff : If you have the Racor filter before the fuel pump you do not need the cylindrical fuel pump (with its filter in the cylinder). Buy the cube!!

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: glennd3 on May 18, 2019, 02:11:15 PM
Guys : I ran my M25XP engine with out a lift pump for over a year.  I had wired the electric fuel pump to the blower instead of the ON pole of the ignition switch.  We traveled from the Potomac to Key West and back like that - we did not travel like that with the engine in idle!!
I would periodically turn ON the blower and note if the RPM increased.  It usually didn't - if it did I changed out the Racor filter and then the RPM remained the SAME!!

Jeff : If you have the Racor filter before the fuel pump you do not need the cylindrical fuel pump (with its filter in the cylinder). Buy the cube!!

A few thoughts

Ron that is a good story!
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jon W on May 18, 2019, 03:09:59 PM
The fuel system with a remote electric fuel pump should be tank -> inline shut-off -> Racor -> electric pump -> on engine filter -> engine regardless of type of remote electric fuel pump. FWIW the filter/strainer inside the cylindrical pump is 74U, AKA a rock catcher.

From my point of view if changing from cylindrical series to cube series, the important questions are do you have room for the different hose routing, do you want to do the work to make those changes, and if you carry a spare is it the cube series?
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jeff Tancock on May 18, 2019, 04:01:50 PM
I'm not set on the cube. I just want a reliable pump.
The local napa store has the posi- flow (610-1051) which I think is cylindrical in stock so leaning that way but am open to suggestions.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 18, 2019, 09:03:51 PM
I'm not set on the cube. I just want a reliable pump.
The local napa store has the posi- flow (610-1051) which I think is cylindrical in stock so leaning that way but am open to suggestions.

The Napa plastic we"offered" on the forum was as a backup and an inexpensive choice; not necessarily a full time replacement.  That may have not been clear on that thread from a decade ago.  If you can get a cylindrical Facet, that's what I'd buy.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Roland Gendreau on May 19, 2019, 07:21:17 AM
See my post here

https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9874.msg75960.html#msg75960 (https://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9874.msg75960.html#msg75960)

The cheap pump lasted 3 years, then failed with the click, click still clicking.

I spent the money on the more expensive pump to replace it.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jeff Tancock on May 20, 2019, 09:33:14 AM
So the more expensive would be the gold flow?
I read all those posts but its confusing as the different pumps are often referred to as "these pumps"or"those pumps".
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jon W on May 20, 2019, 11:50:15 AM
Hi Jeff, it is confusing. The best I've been able to figure out, there are three types of Facet electric fuels pumps talked about on this forum. The prices I give below are from an online supplier called Aircraft Spruce. NAPA and others prices are different and generally higher.

The cylindrical body version was originally called the "Facet Interruptor" and has been replaced by the one called "Facet Gold Flo Interruptor Type". "Facet Gold Flo Interruptor Type" PN's are either 476087E or 476459E. NAPA cross reference PN's are either 610-1074 or 610-1076 respectively. By the looks of mine, this is what was originally installed on my 1987 MK1 boat. It is the highest price at $79.95.

The plastic version is called the "Facet Posi Flo", NAPA PN 610-1051. It is not the same as the cylindrical body version above. The "Facet Posi-Flo" version is the lowest price at ~$34-$38, but apparently has limited durability.

The cube version is called the "Facet Cube". I think this is the version Ron Hill was referring to. It is the in between price at ~$40-$50. One example "Facet Cube" PN is 40100N for you to look up. This PN is for reference only, I haven't looked into the specifications to verify which "Facet Cube" PN is the right fit for our application.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: kurt on May 20, 2019, 02:03:10 PM
I had a similar loss of RPM issue on my '88.  I noticed that it was dumping unburnt fuel out of the exhaust which led me to believe that back pressure might be the issue and it was.  The exhaust elbow had narrowed.   Replaced the elbow and problem solved.  I didn't see this ticked off as a check in thread so thought I'd bring it up.

Kurt
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Ron Hill on May 20, 2019, 04:47:30 PM
Guys : I wrote a Mainsheet tech note article a few years back on the Facet electric fuel pumps.  I had tracked down the manufacturer and talked to one of their engineers.  Don't remember the part #s, but what was surprising is that the new cylindrical pump and one of the cube pumps had a major internal redesign - to digital.
Instead of contact points that opened and closed there was a circuit board that did that function, which was a vast improvement. The "ticking" heard in that new pump design was the mechanical pump working not the contacts opening & closing.
 
A few thoughts
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Roland Gendreau on May 20, 2019, 06:23:08 PM
Jeff

Yes the more expensive pump referenced in my post link is the gold flow model, about $150.
That's the one I bought to replace the 610-6051 model that failed in 3 years. 



Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jon W on May 20, 2019, 06:33:55 PM
or you can buy it for $79.95 plus tax and shipping from Aircraft Spruce.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: britinusa on May 21, 2019, 06:59:54 AM
Having read this I did not see the start sequence (although starting is not the only issue)

Anyhooo, our start procedure is:
Check / clean out - Raw Water filter
Raw Water valve open (we close it when we get back to the the dock)
Ignition Switch On
Blower On 30 seconds - Blower Off.
Throttle minimum - Gear Shift Neutral - Stop lever down
Glow Plug 20 seconds
Start Button - normally 2 seconds max

Did a complete engine harness rebuild in 2017/18  including all new Gauges (Tach, Temp, Fuel, Voltage and new Injectors, Tubes & Rebuilt Injector Pump.
We hit 6.4knots at 2100 rpm in still water if the prop and shaft are clean (cleaned every month by divers)

Paul
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Stu Jackson on May 21, 2019, 05:10:40 PM
Jeff,

IIRC the Napa Replacement thread has a link to this helpful Facet pump discussion from Fleet 1 in San Francisco:

   http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2515.0.html

See reply #11.  I haven't compared this to what anyone else wrote in this thread.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jeff Tancock on May 21, 2019, 09:04:12 PM

I found the Facet Gold Flo FEP 87SV at a local automotive supply chain (Princess Auto) today at a good price after struggling to find one online that was in stock in Canada. They had 2 on the shelf!
Go figure!
Will try the install tomorrow.
Fingers crossed after the boat really struggled to make it back to the dock Sunday
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jeff Tancock on May 22, 2019, 06:59:38 PM
Bought and installed the new fuel pump.
No change! Waste of time and money.
Thought I had the fix. Crap!!!
Pulled the air intake/filter thing and tried the engine. No Change.
Changed the Racor again. No change.
I also opened up the bleed valve on the engine at full throttle to make sure there was excess fuel. There was.
I can't think of what next. Only thing that I haven't done is checked the exhaust riser.
The exhaust water blows out vigorously so I doubt that is restricted. Any suggestions on how to check the riser given how awkward that would be?
Any other thoughts?
I'm desperate!
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Noah on May 22, 2019, 07:11:54 PM
Did you dismiss or explore the injector suggestion?
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jeff Tancock on May 22, 2019, 08:08:32 PM
Talked to a local mechanic I know for a bit. He works on these engines quite a bit. He's too busy at this time of year to look at it any time soon.
He felt that the injectors couldn't be so bad that the engine would under perform in neutral. He gave me ideas on several things to check as I mentioned above.
I guess it's still a possibility though.
Thing is that the engine sounds smooth and seems to run well but it just tops out so early.
I'm planning on checking the RPMs too but it is still slow by at least a knot so that doesn't explain it.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Noah on May 22, 2019, 09:03:40 PM
Sorry, I am not a mechanic—just trying to learn along with you. Good luck.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Ron Hill on May 23, 2019, 03:16:09 PM
Jeff : You might read my Mainsheet Tech note article on rebuilding your injection pump. The rpm was great in neutral, but bled off when in gear!!
After checking all of the many other things (injectors, fuel pump, fuel lines, Racor etc.) I finally removed the injection pump and had it rebuilt.  That was the problem!!

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jeff Tancock on May 23, 2019, 03:48:58 PM
Thanks Ron
I've just ordered the injectors. None in stock.
I'll try to locate your article although unlike you I have lost RPM in neutral as well.
Tomorrow I am going to go over all the fuel lines, vent etc and look for any place for air to get into the system.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jeff Tancock on May 23, 2019, 05:09:00 PM
I'm hoping I ordered the right part nos.

70000-65209 for the injector and 17011-53620 for the gaskets...……..
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Ron Hill on May 24, 2019, 04:54:56 PM
Jeff : It has been written a number of times in the Mainsheet tech notes - take your injectors to a diesel place that services diesel trucks and have them rebuilt.  They will run a spray check and replace the tips etc.  It's half the price of new injectors!!!!!!

Injectors are NOT like sparkplugs and throw the old ones away, you rebuild them and carry them as spares!

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Jeff Tancock on May 24, 2019, 05:16:05 PM
Not here
$97 new and $60 to look at them and do what they need to. Also they are so backed up it would take a week to get to them.
I figured I might as well spring for new and keep trying things in the meantime.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: RV61 on June 17, 2019, 01:23:15 PM
Jeff,
I feel your pain and went thru this a few years ago. One old salt said start at the beginning and follow the fuel till the end. So I started with the fuel itself and took  sample off the bottom it was clean. Pulled fuel line pickup tube and found partially gummed up screen on end and tossed it and got very small improvement. Checked fuel vent hose and vent fitting on my stern found spiders partially blocking in the vent fitting as well as the fitting was upside down acting as a water collector thus why the separator kept getting the water out. Still not full RPM but again slight improvement. On to the water separator/ fuel filter changed filter no change on to the facet fuel pump found fuel was not pumping as fast as I thought it should pulled hose and pumped into a can to see this so OK checked lines and they were clear then ah what wrong with the pump and due to this forum found the mystery  filter in the Facet was fouled and cleaned it up a bingo that was the issue. Mine had a real fine mesh and cleaned it until all mesh was shiny silver. While I was at it did discover some not so tight hose clamps and some chafe and took care of those. Boat has run great since. On the hard starting issue mine would usually start but would have to stand on the glow plug button way too long so out came the glow plugs the tested fine by mechanic  cleaned up a little reinstalled and that solved that problem it almost start by looking at the start button after a 15 count on glow plug button. after reading all you have done and 2 symptoms of hard start and low RPMs did these both start to occur at the same time?  If so hope it is just a clogged fuel tank air vent line or fitting  if not I think you are on right path of injectors or injector pump. The best part was I learned the fuel system inside and out. Air flow in right places, no air in others and free flowing good fuel make happy engine. Good luck and let us know the outcome.       
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: WTunnessen on June 17, 2019, 01:54:54 PM
Last summer I replaced the injectors and had the fuel pump re-built by a diesel shop. Afterwards, I found I had more power than before. Prior to that, I had noticed what I thought was a slow loss of power over the prior few months before the engine began to stall out.  Your engine is the era as mine, although your engine hours will differ.  The diesel shop re-built my fuel pump in less than a week for a pretty reasonable cost. To pull the fuel pump, I followed the instructions on the message board and tech notes.
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: lazybone on June 17, 2019, 02:26:46 PM
Does anyone have the Kabota parts numbers for the injectors on a 25xp?
Title: Re: Loss of RPM
Post by: Ron Hill on June 17, 2019, 02:45:41 PM
Jeff : As Rick mentioned you need to confirm that you have removed the screen from the fuel pick up tube!!

A thought