Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Breakin Away on April 09, 2019, 11:30:55 AM

Title: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Breakin Away on April 09, 2019, 11:30:55 AM
My boat is on the hard. While spraying some Barnacle Barrier on my prop, I noticed a lot of resistance in rotating the prop. It would turn, but only with a lot of effort. I climbed into the cockpit, removed the helm cover, and discovered that the transmission had been shifted into forward. (This probably happened when I removed the steering wheel for the winter, or perhaps knocked into it without the protection of the wheel.) After shifting back to neutral, I was able to rotate the prop easily, the only resistance being caused by my cutlass bearing.

But this begs the question: Is my ability to rotate the prop in forward (albeit with quite a bit of resistance) a sign of a problem with my transmission? Prior owner had it rebuilt about 170 hours ago. Is the prop supposed to be fully locked when in forward? Or is there meant to be some frictional movement, which could be why the manual instructs NEVER to sail with the transmission in forward?
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Ron Hill on April 09, 2019, 02:24:16 PM
Breakin : Did you ever considered that - in gear and turning the prop by hand you are also probably turning over the engine!!

A thought
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Noah on April 09, 2019, 02:28:34 PM
Push your cradle really fast and then pop it into gear! :shock: 8)
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Breakin Away on April 09, 2019, 02:31:59 PM
Breakin : Did you ever considered that - in gear and turning the prop by hand you are also probably turning over the engine!!

A thought
I don’t think I’m that strong. It’s a diesel, after all - compression rate too high. And it was constant resistance, not pulsing like a cylinder.

But if anyone here has turned over their diesel by turning their prop, let me know. Maybe we should arm wrestle!  lol
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: glennd3 on April 10, 2019, 03:43:24 PM
If I remember this weekend I will try mine as I am still on the hard, I painted it Saturday and it turned freely so I am assuming it was in neutral. When are you launching over on the eastern shore? We had some boats go in this week.
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Breakin Away on April 10, 2019, 04:02:30 PM
If I remember this weekend I will try mine as I am still on the hard, I painted it Saturday and it turned freely so I am assuming it was in neutral. When are you launching over on the eastern shore? We had some boats go in this week.
Thanks, that would be great if you could put her in forward and see if you can turn the prop. I have no other way to compare similar boats.

My boat is on the hard on the Delaware River near Philly. I am scheduled to launch at high tide Sunday morning. I was planning to make the 2-day trip to Rock Hall Sun-Mon, but the thunderstorm forecast may delay that.
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Bill Shreeves on April 10, 2019, 06:17:23 PM
If I remember this weekend I will try mine as I am still on the hard, I painted it Saturday and it turned freely so I am assuming it was in neutral. When are you launching over on the eastern shore? We had some boats go in this week.
Thanks, that would be great if you could put her in forward and see if you can turn the prop. I have no other way to compare similar boats.

My boat is on the hard on the Delaware River near Philly. I am scheduled to launch at high tide Sunday morning. I was planning to make the 2-day trip to Rock Hall Sun-Mon, but the thunderstorm forecast may delay that.

Curious, where do you plan on staying over-nighting?  DE City?  That's where I'm on the hard this year.  If all goes as planned, I'll be doing the 1-day to Worton Creek the last Saturday of April.   I'd check the prop spin but I decouple the shaft while on the hard.
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Breakin Away on April 10, 2019, 08:46:29 PM
I've stopped over at Delaware City Marina many times, but usually when heading the other direction. When heading from Essington to Rock Hall, I usually try to make it a little further than Delaware City in my first day. Last year I anchored at Ford Landing in Bohemia River, this year I might stop at Chesapeake City now that they've dredged. A lot depends on wind direction (affects anchorage selection) and how many days delay I may have due to the forecast thunderstorms (since favorable currents though the canal get ~45 minutes later each day).
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Breakin Away on April 14, 2019, 11:46:49 AM

Curious, where do you plan on staying over-nighting?  DE City?  That's where I'm on the hard this year.  If all goes as planned, I'll be doing the 1-day to Worton Creek the last Saturday of April.   I'd check the prop spin but I decouple the shaft while on the hard.
FYI, I should be at Delaware City Marina in about an hour. I am being towed in because I hit a submerged log and destroyed my pop, and maybe my shaft. Hopefully not the strut. I hope Timís people do good work, because my options may be limited.

Meanwhile, what folding  prop brand do most people recommend? Also, if I have to replace the shaft, what grade of stainless steel is recommended? I currently have the original bronze shaft.
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Bill Shreeves on April 14, 2019, 12:17:19 PM

Curious, where do you plan on staying over-nighting?  DE City?  That's where I'm on the hard this year.  If all goes as planned, I'll be doing the 1-day to Worton Creek the last Saturday of April.   I'd check the prop spin but I decouple the shaft while on the hard.
FYI, I should be at Delaware City Marina in about an hour. I am being towed in because I hit a submerged log and destroyed my pop, and maybe my shaft. Hopefully not the strut. I hope Timís people do good work, because my options may be limited.

Meanwhile, what folding  prop brand do most people recommend? Also, if I have to replace the shaft, what grade of stainless steel is recommended? I currently have the original bronze shaft.


So sorry to hear!  I must have just missed you when I left the marina @ 1:45 PM today.  Good luck and lets hope the damage is limited.  I got my SS shaft through Atlantis Prop in Cinnaminson, NJ.
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Bill Shreeves on April 14, 2019, 02:26:26 PM
 (ftp://[glow=red,2,300)
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I hope Timís people do good work, because my options may be limited.
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I hope Timís people do good work, because my options may be limited.
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[/glow][/ftp]

I'm assuming your boat won't get pulled until Tuesday.  I'll say this, they're stingy with the stands 2 Delaware City Marina.  The guy that set-up my boat was going to use only 4.  I insisted on no less than 6 and I told him that 2 other yards I've been in used 8 plus a bow stand.

I have no idea how "hands-on" you are but, I didn't find replacing the shaft & prop all that difficult.  Of course, it takes time.  I found the most challenging part to be arranging to borrow the tool to install the cutlass with the shaft in so I didn't have to drop the rudder. I cut the bronze shaft out.   I'll be at the marina Fri & Sat so, maybe we'll bump into each other.
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Noah on April 14, 2019, 02:48:23 PM
Sorry to hear about your unfortunate news. I replaced my old bronze shaft with an Aquamet 22 stainless steel shaft and a 3 blade Flexofold prop. If you need advice on how-to strut replacement email me. Been there done that.
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Breakin Away on April 14, 2019, 07:49:27 PM
Thanks for all the condolences and advice. Bill - we missed each other by a few hours. My prior message was posted at 11:46 PDT, or 2:46 EDT.

It's in the hands of the insurance company now. I'm real big into DIY, but since I'm in a foreign yard accumulating daily storage fees, I need to let the pros handle it. Plus, I spend every other week out of town on business, so my progress would be too slow paying transient storage fees. I've got a really good surveyor assigned to my case (I actually tried to hire him for pre-inspection survey when I bought the boat, but he only did insurance work). I've never met him, but I had talked to him over the phone a few years ago and was really impressed. I am very concerned that my shaft or strut may be toast also, since the shaft does not rotate freely with the transmission in neutral (when turning it from below). As you know from my post last week, I could easily rotate the shaft as long as the transmission was in neutral.

My boat was launched this morning from my boat club's DIY yard. Great rates ($400 for haulout, storage, and launch), but I have to supply my own stands, which I bring home during the season. Like Bill, I have EIGHT of them that I bought with my own money. I do think you can get away with four for a short time as long as there are no big storms. But certainly not for a whole winter season.

Dave Skolnick, my go-to guy for most marine advice, suggests Gori or Flex-o-fold props. (I'll do some homework, but for tonight I'm just worn out.) I'd appreciate your advice comparing the two. I may have to go with identical replacement if the insurance situation gets too complicated (if Michigan Props even makes the original Sailer 3 blade prop any more). But I'd consider paying any upgrade costs for folding/feathering. My current 3-blade prop is 15"x9". Should a folding prop be the same pitch, or is there some reason folding props need to be different? Are any of them adjustable, so I could tweak it between seasons if it responds differently from expectations?
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Dave Spencer on April 15, 2019, 05:48:30 AM
BA,
Sorry to hear about your troubles.
Hereís a good article about folding and feathering props. There are likely others out there but I bookmarked this one.
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/gear/folding-and-feathering-propeller-test-29807 (https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/gear/folding-and-feathering-propeller-test-29807)
I have a German made Vari-Prop which the PO installed. Iím quite pleased with it. Forward and reverse pitch are independently variable and it can be adjusted while in the water (although you need your wits about you to do it). Iíve adjusted mine to optimize forward pitch (ie can achieve max engine rpm) and reverse pitch in an attempt to minimize prop walk.
Vari-Prop is not as common as Max Prop or some others but here is a dealer and service centre nearby in Toronto that I fortunately havenít had to use yet.
Good luck with your repairs.

Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Bill Shreeves on April 15, 2019, 06:23:33 AM
I have a Michigan Wheel 3-Blade Sailor Prop 15x10 for 2 years now.  I'm very happy with it.
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Jim Hardesty on April 15, 2019, 07:16:30 AM
I have a Maxi-prop, works great.  I've cruised with boats equipped with the folding props, they seem to struggle motoring through Lake Erie steep choppy waves.  FWIW I think it's the small blade area.  If I have any qualms recommending the Maxi-prop it's the prop walk.  For me it's something I'm used to and not a real problem.
Jim
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: glennd3 on April 15, 2019, 06:25:29 PM
BA,   I read the thread where you were having your prop checked back in January and then more recently about your trans slipping.  Did you have it fixed and was there a problem with it that could have caused the problem you have now? How did you confirm hitting the log? Just asking because maybe there is another issue to consider.
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Breakin Away on April 15, 2019, 06:51:59 PM
BA,   I read the thread where you were having your prop checked back in January and then more recently about your trans slipping.  Did you have it fixed and was there a problem with it that could have caused the problem you have now? How did you confirm hitting the log? Just asking because maybe there is another issue to consider.
It's 100% certain that all three are completely separate issues.

My prop was checked proactively - there was nothing wrong with it, I just wanted it checked out. Ray at Atlantis Prop did find one blade was pitched only 8", so corrected all blades to 9".

The question about transmission slipping was noted on the hard, as I was rotating the prop and shaft to put a final coat of paint on it.  It had nothing to do with the prop at all. In fact, I rotated the shaft by putting a pipe wrench on my shaft anode to turn it, since Ray warned NEVER to block the prop blades.

The boat was dropped in the water yesterday and running 100% perfectly until the incident with the submerged log, probably a railroad tie. When I looked astern, I saw the end of an ~8"x8" square cross section popping through the water. There is no question that I hit something that caused the problem, and the surveyor will confirm it tomorrow or the next day.

Assuming the prop needs replacing (which I'm 95% sure of), I will probably apply insurance toward a 3-blade 15"x9" Flexofold, assuming there's sufficient clearance between shaft and rudder. Shaft or strut are probably damaged too for reasons I already explained.
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Noah on April 15, 2019, 07:12:00 PM
Breakiní-
Reminding you of A fairly recent post with pics where we discussed props and struts. I am happy with my 15 X 10 (not 15 X 9) Flexofold 3-blade on my smaller 25XP engine. Also, I have recently replaced my strut (for another unrelated reason) and would be happy to share the procedure and details if you are interested. Just PM me.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,10092.msg77555.html#msg77555
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Breakin Away on April 15, 2019, 07:35:30 PM
Thanks for the reminder. I'll go back and look at it again.

I remember that you had 15"x10" prop on a smaller motor, but Ray at Atlantis reminded me that the transmission gear ratio has a big impact, and could negate the larger motor. What is the gear ratio of your transmission. My Hurth HBW100 is 1.79 in forward.

I was planning to test full throttle RPMs on that trip as soon as I got into close range of my final destination. Unfortunately I did not make it far enough to run the test, and now I'll likely have to choose a new prop without that data.

By the way, I had put an anode onto my strut before launching. We'll see what kind of condition the strut is in soon.
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Noah on April 15, 2019, 07:43:39 PM
Hurth 50  2:1
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Breakin Away on April 15, 2019, 07:52:31 PM
Hurth 50  2:1
Thanks, I'm rereading a lot of the stuff there which I had seen before, but it was less urgent at the time, so I had forgotten some of it. I had planned to spend this season with my refurbished 15"x9", do more extensive testing of motor RPMs with my strobe, check shaft RPMs vs. spec gear ratio to ensure there was no slipping, then make a decision on re-pitching. Now I'll almost certainly have to buy a new prop without that benefit. Almost makes me default back to another Michigan Sailer prop rather and save my $2100 for a future Flexofold after I have my data.

Sorry if my questions were repetitious - I need to go back and re-read a bunch of stuff before asking any more questions.
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Noah on April 15, 2019, 08:02:41 PM
I would say it is all moot until you survey your damage. If your prop is damaged you may be be able to recondition it. I keep my old 15 x 9 Michigan 3-blade as a spare. Although it is not currently fitted/lapped to match my new S.S. shaft, it gives me comfort to keep it in case something crazy happens?!?
Title: Re: Slipping transmission?
Post by: Bill Shreeves on April 15, 2019, 08:06:26 PM
I have a ZF 10M gearbox which, I believe is 2.05/1 and a 15x10 Michigan Wheel Sailor Prop on my M25XPB which is 26 HP.  It's been running very well.