Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Breakin Away on February 11, 2019, 08:34:24 PM

Title: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Breakin Away on February 11, 2019, 08:34:24 PM
I've read a couple dozen threads on these topics. Since all are a year old or more, I'll start a new one to add my questions and comments:

Engine coolant

Obviously MaineSail hates "Death cool", so that's out of the running. Everything I've found on this site says to use "ordinary Prestone". I don't know what the PO put in my boat, but since it was "green stuff" I topped off the reservoir with 50% Prestone Extended Life for the last couple of years, since they emphasize its compatibility with other brands/types. It's worked fine so far. But I've changed my freshwater pump this winter, and plan to flush/rinse/clean/rinse/refill my system in the spring. I want to use the right thing going forward. I was planning to use Prestone again because it's is so widely available everywhere, and I don't want to be driving an hour to get matching antifreeze if I'm in a remote area and need to top off.

However, I am also aware of Practical Sailor's Oct 2014 article that urged the use of heavy duty antifreezes that have anti-cavitation inhibitors that will prevent cavitation pitting. Drew Frye did the testing and repeated his recommendations over on Sailnet recently:

https://www.sailnet.com/forums/gear-maintenance/328002-antifreeze-diesel-engines.html#post2051576784

Among his recommended brands, Zerex G05 seems to be the most widely available, and very reasonably priced. But I see no mention of it here. Is there a reason for that? If you read the article, it seems that the problem is worst for engines with thin-walled wet sleeve liners, presumably because their thinness causes them to "ring" (like a bell) and thus drive the cavitation which enhances corrosion. (Anyone who plays a brass instrument knows that thin metals ring more than thick ones.) Does anyone here know if Universal employed thin wet sleeve liners in their designs? Or is this just a Yanmar problem?

I'd like to hear your comments.

Raw/potable water antifreeze

In reviewing most of the comments about this, I saw some concerns over damage to rubber parts like impellers, gaskets, and joker valves. I agree with the general comments that these parts are not damaged by antifreezes based on propylene glycol or ethylene glycol. However, EG is very toxic and cannot be released into waterways or watersheds, and impellers' lives will be shortened somewhat by being left compressed in the cam all winter even with glycols present.

However, some people also referred to using RV antifreeze, so I thought I'd repeat Maine Sail's warning that the cheap orange RV antifreeze uses ethanol in the formula, which will leach the plasticizers out of synthetic rubbers, causing them to harden and crack over time. Also, the denaturing agents that the Feds require to be included with the ethanol will cause a bitter taste in your potable water system that could take years to clean out (as I have learned after my PO used the orange stuff in our potable water tanks). So make sure to use the pink stuff (not orange) and read the label to ensure it does not say "combustible", as that's a giveaway that ethanol is present.

https://marinehowto.com/freshwater-system-winterizing/
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: KWKloeber on February 12, 2019, 10:05:55 PM
BA for what it's worth, take a look at (Peak Brand) Sierra safe (well, safe-er) AF.

As far as pink stuff, and there will surely be those who disagree -- it's a conspiracy between marine suppliers and yards and boating magazines and mechanics.  Why pump that stuff when you can easily evacuate all the H2O (that matters) from the cooling train and potable lines? A waste of good beer money.  Why worry about a diluted concentration, and refractometers and/or catching exhaust and checking freeze point - because it's how they make a living.  Just spend the time to get rid of the stuff that freezes. 

If you use PG, a refractometer is gilding, you can get a PG (just like) EG tester (Amazon or Autozone online, not in the stores.) 
Or use an EG tester and the conversion chart (find it online) -- just mark your tester for PG freeze temps or use the cheat sheet -- e.g., specific gravity X = freeze temp Y for EG AF, or = freeze point Z for PG AF.

Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: mainesail on February 13, 2019, 04:09:01 AM
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 12, 2019, 10:05:55 PM

As far as pink stuff, and there will surely be those who disagree -- it's a conspiracy between marine suppliers and yards and boating magazines and mechanics.  Why pump that stuff when you can easily evacuate all the H2O (that matters) from the cooling train and potable lines? A waste of good beer money.  Why worry about a diluted concentration, and refractometers and/or catching exhaust and checking freeze point - because it's how they make a living.  Just spend the time to get rid of the stuff that freezes. 



Ken,

If you did this for a living, on a larger scale, you would be chuckling at yourself for the above statement. My own boat gets AF in both domestic and engine systems and she is parked a just few feet from an 80 gallon Ingersol Rand industrial air compressor that runs a massive bead blast cabinet continuously without breaking a sweat.

Why? Because "blowing lines out" or "draining" is not a consistently reliable method, especially in complicated plumbing systems. Every spring we get more work from folks who read advice like yours, and follow it, than we do from folks who used AF to winterize. I had one guy about 8 years ago who attempted this with a 12V outlet powered "air compressor".... After drilling out about 80 bungs, fixing leaks, replacing pumps etc. he was staring at a $1200.00 bill. We do still get folks who only spend $8.00 on AF, instead of $12.00, but we see far more systems with cracked fittings from being blown or drained than we do from systems that get AF. The larger the boat the more complicated the plumbing systems.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: mainesail on February 13, 2019, 05:08:19 AM
Quote from: Breakin Away on February 11, 2019, 08:34:24 PM
I've read a couple dozen threads on these topics. Since all are a year old or more, I'll start a new one to add my questions and comments:

Engine coolant

Obviously MaineSail hates "Death cool", so that's out of the running.

Dex-Cool was reformulated but our engine came from the factory with the old stuff, when shipped from WB. It caused it to sludge up very badly. These days I use a diesel specific antifreeze and have been using Rotella Ultra ELC for many years. I change it annually and it is inexpensive, about $1 - $2 more than a typical auto coolant, and I can get it locally.

Be careful however, as you do not want to mix coolants unless the bottle says something to the effect of; "all makes all models". Peak, Prestone, NAPA etc. all have an "all makes all models" coolant. If you don't know what coolant you have it is best to use one that can be mixed with any existing coolant. Most older sailboat diesels I come across are using a "green" coolant except for Yanmar, and some other newer engines that use a HD type, which is usually red/pinkish. When I switched out the Dex-Cool I had to run a full Rydlyme purge, then flush the engine, then make the switch to an HD coolant which has been Rotella Ultra ELC.

Don't even get me started on the local diesel mechanic who went around switching all his customers to a PG "green" engine coolant, not marking the engines as such, then boat yards & owners were adding green EG to the green PG.... Talk about an $$$$$$$ oops....
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Breakin Away on February 13, 2019, 06:30:08 AM
I share the concerns over "blowing out" water lines with air. Air does not displace water very well when pushing "uphill". It will bubble through and the water will just fall back to the low point (where it does its damage upon freezing). In theory you could have a real big compressor that "blasts" it all away, but the pressure needed to do that could do some damage also. I just spend the money on pink antifreeze, drain as many low points as I can easily reach (to minimize dilution), and then pump it in. As an extra dose of safety, after pumping in the antifreeze, I pull the HX anode to re-drain it, and also drain the aqua-lift muffler. My air conditioner is particularly tricky to winterize because the water loop is oriented vertically, so there's a LOT of residual water that DOES NOT blow out. (I try to blow out as much as I can to minimize dilution.)

Regarding engine antifreeze, I'm really looking for comments whether the "yellow" G-05 HOAT antifreeze type offers benefits with the Westerbeke motors, or I should just stick with normal green stuff with traditional IAT corrosion inhibition. The Practical Sailor tests were eye-opening. But I also expect that when switching from one type to the other, a complete flush is absolutely essential to avoid inter-mixing, and with all the bypass loops (hot water heater, thermostat bypass, etc) getting a complete flush can be trickier than it seems.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: mainesail on February 13, 2019, 07:53:24 AM
Quote from: Breakin Away on February 13, 2019, 06:30:08 AM

Regarding engine antifreeze, I'm really looking for comments whether the "yellow" G-05 HOAT antifreeze type offers benefits with the Westerbeke motors, or I should just stick with normal green stuff with traditional IAT corrosion inhibition. The Practical Sailor tests were eye-opening. But I also expect that when switching from one type to the other, a complete flush is absolutely essential to avoid inter-mixing, and with all the bypass loops (hot water heater, thermostat bypass, etc) getting a complete flush can be trickier than it seems.

I think any diesel engine can benefit from an HD (diesel) type coolant but I have yet to see a small sailboat AUX motor die from cavitation issues. I do know that the manufacturer of the block on our Westerbke recomends an HD type coolant yet WB does not specify this.

In your situation, if you don't know for 100% what is in there now, you essentially have two choces;

1- Use an "all makes all models" automotive coolant that can be mixed with what ever you have.
2- Flush the engine and start over.

If starting over it really makes little financial sense not to use an HD diesel type coolant.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: KWKloeber on February 13, 2019, 01:09:47 PM
Quote from: Breakin Away on February 13, 2019, 06:30:08 AM

I share the concerns over "blowing out" water lines with air. Air does not displace water very well when pushing "uphill".


As always there's no single answer that fits each and every boat/each and every scenario/each and every climate.  I too did the pink routine for 2-3 years before I got to the point to put the effort into locating where I could gravity drain with no residual water and if necessary putting a port there.  And blow the lines for good measure (no, not uphill you are correct.)  If that's not possible in your case, then sure, more caution is better than less.

It's still a conspiracy for suppliers to forth the notion that there is one and only one way to winterize and that's to use their pink stuff product.  There are different ways to skin cats -- sometimes it takes ingenuity to move outside the proverbial box, or sometimes it's maintaining the same routine here, but over there using a different routine that's better/cheaper/quicker/whatever-er.  That's what "engineered solutions" is all about!  It's all what the individual owner feels comfortable handling.

I haven't bought pink stuff since 1995, and no apocalypse yet.  And that includes Buffalo NY winters!! :shock:

There was only one time -- and it had nothing to do with pink or no pink (I drained, didn't pink the WH) it was timing.  I wasn't supposed to be pulled yet but was (this yard did whatever it cared to, whenever it cared to) and went on the hard before I got to drain the WH -- we had a sudden overnight cold snap and split a fitting.  Only because the WH is "exposed" on the C30 mk-1.  If it was below as all y'alls are, I would have been fine.  After that -- and that they beat the hell out of my boat tied to a steel piling w/no fenders, lost my grill overboard in the Bflo river,  and hit my bow rail w/ another boat -- they were history.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: KWKloeber on February 13, 2019, 01:33:26 PM
Quote from: mainesail on February 13, 2019, 04:09:01 AM

with a 12V outlet powered "air compressor"....


Sometimes, pink, green, or purple stuff just doesn't fix "stupid." :shock: 
But that's not a fair measure, eh?  I know folks who can't use a cable cutter w/o knicking every strand, but that doesn't mean that no one out there can make their own cables and have to hire a profssional.  If they can't reliably drain, then don't drain.

Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Paulus on February 14, 2019, 05:16:45 AM
"it's a conspiracy between marine suppliers and yards and boating magazines and mechanics."
Ken,
Could you provide some documentation for this conspiracy theory?  This evidence should also include RVs, cottages etc.
Paul
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: KWKloeber on February 15, 2019, 11:32:34 AM
<<using Rotella Ultra ELC for many years. I change it annually and it is inexpensive, about $1 - $2 more than a typical auto coolant, and I can get it locally>>>

I see Tractor Supply carries Rotella ELC , but not the Ultra. Cannot seem to locate the ultra at a reasonable cost -- I see it on amazon, elsewhere (w/ rediculous shipping costs.)  No autozone, Pep Boys, etc.  Any other sources anyone has found?

-k
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: mainesail on February 15, 2019, 01:57:03 PM
My local NAPA has it and we have a wholesale account there. The price shown on-line is a retail price. I would suspect that most NAPA's can get it because they cater to fleet, municipalities etc... I only chose it because it meets the Mitsubishi requirement and my engine block is a Mitsubishi not really a Westerbeke. Since converting to Rotella Ultra ELC I have had zero sludge issues but this is not to say that another diesel grade coolant would not perform the same or similarly.


https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/SHR550026252 (https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/SHR550026252)
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: KWKloeber on February 15, 2019, 02:09:42 PM
Rod

That's in the CS?  Mitsubishi?

I'll ck the local NAPA.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: mainesail on February 16, 2019, 06:33:41 AM
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 15, 2019, 02:09:42 PM
Rod

That's in the CS?  Mitsubishi?

I'll ck the local NAPA.

Our Westerbeke 44B Four is a Mitsubishi. Today most WB's are Mitsu, some are Isuzu and some older ones are Perkins/British Leyland...
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: KWKloeber on February 17, 2019, 07:10:29 PM
I notice that a few manufacturers have a heavy-duty PG antifreeze recommended for diesels.  Cummins is one, Zerex another.
One reason I like the idea of PG is for the water heater.  If a pinhole develops, there's a slight chance that engine coolant can leach into the potable system (typically it would be the opposite direction.)  I don't know what concentration of EG would be toxic, but PG would be safer during a period until the leak is discovered.

Note that while OSHA lists PG as generally safe, at least four states list it as a hazardous substance, and Canada WHMIS classifies it as D3 (the same class as asbestos, mercury, saccharin.)   hmmmmmm..  Is pink stuff available in Canada for use in water systems?  Maybe someday we'll find it isn't as safe as we think for potable systems?
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Breakin Away on November 04, 2019, 08:07:11 AM
I still haven't replaced my AF, but hoping to soon, so I'm reopening this topic.

What is the recommended flushing procedure? Just DI water? Rydlyme solution? Commercial automotive flushing products?
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: TortolaTim on November 21, 2019, 08:36:32 AM
Quote from: mainesail on February 15, 2019, 01:57:03 PM
My local NAPA has it and we have a wholesale account there. The price shown on-line is a retail price. I would suspect that most NAPA's can get it because they cater to fleet, municipalities etc... I only chose it because it meets the Mitsubishi requirement and my engine block is a Mitsubishi not really a Westerbeke. Since converting to Rotella Ultra ELC I have had zero sludge issues but this is not to say that another diesel grade coolant would not perform the same or similarly.


https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/SHR550026252 (https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/SHR550026252)


Upon your advice, I ordered some Ultra ELC online to be picked up at my local NAPA here in Detriot Metro. The guy from the store called me later and apologetically said the distributor would only sell it by the case. He tried to change warehouse's mind, but they wouldn't budge. I ended up just getting the regular ELC instead. I don't know if this is a NAPA issue just locally for me, but disappointing nonetheless. I looked around and couldn't find anyone else that carried it.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Breakin Away on January 15, 2020, 08:30:08 PM
Quote from: Breakin Away on November 04, 2019, 08:07:11 AM
I still haven't replaced my AF, but hoping to soon, so I'm reopening this topic.

What is the recommended flushing procedure? Just DI water? Rydlyme solution? Commercial automotive flushing products?
I will definitely change antifreeze this winter, so I'm back to this topic with additional questions.

First, what is the recommended flushing material? (as asked above) Should I rinse with water before/after the flush?

Second, I'm still open to recommended coolant brands. I really want something easy to find, because Murphy guarantees that if I ever need to buy more, I will be in a very remote place with few options.

Finally, my motor is winterized and boat yard water turned off for the winter. Is there a way I could do the drain/rinse/flush/rinse/refill without running the motor? I have a really nice Little Giant Pony impeller pump which could circulate everything through the motor without it running. I assume that if I remove the thermostat that the liquid would also flow into the areas around the cylinders. Is there any need for the motor to be heated up, or can I just use the impeller pump to recirculate everything though the cooling system? If so, where is the best place to connect the pump to recirculate everything? (Note that I have an M35B, which seems to have very different hose routing from earlier Universal motors. Some of Stu's recommended draining techniques do not work with this motor because hose interconnects are in the wrong place.)

I thought I had once seen something on Mainesail's website demonstrating a flushing technique with an external recirculation pump, but I cannot find it on either his old or new website. Could someone post a link for this if it's still there?
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Stu Jackson on January 16, 2020, 12:27:51 PM
Is this it?  (from the 101 Topics)

Winterizing an Engine on the Hard (Thanks to Maine Sail) - NEVER connect a hose to your raw water pump inlet - NEVER!!!

https://youtu.be/PKky09u1fGU
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Breakin Away on January 16, 2020, 07:49:08 PM
Quote from: Stu Jackson on January 16, 2020, 12:27:51 PM
Is this it?  (from the 101 Topics)

Winterizing an Engine on the Hard (Thanks to Maine Sail) - NEVER connect a hose to your raw water pump inlet - NEVER!!!

https://youtu.be/PKky09u1fGU
Hi Stu, thanks for trying, but that's winterization (which is pretty much the same thing that I do, except I put the bucket int the aft berth).

I thought I saw a video of a flushing procedure for the freshwater coolant side of the motor, where Rod had a circulation pump sitting in front of the motor. I poked around his YouTube channel which you linked, but I still can't find it. Maybe it was someone else's video.

Anyway, I'd love to hear what others do for flushing and rinsing of the freshwater side, as I haven't found much on this topic in my searches.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: KWKloeber on January 16, 2020, 09:31:00 PM
BA

Google is your friend.  A search locates the info (first time) -- on several forums like google Beneteau, Sailnet, Cruisers (maybe others.)  RC's procedure (and link to a couple of pics are there.)

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22mainesail%22+engine+coolant+flush

-k

Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: KWKloeber on January 16, 2020, 10:02:02 PM
Quote from: Breakin Away

if I remove the thermostat that the liquid would also flow into the areas around the cylinders. Is there any need for the motor to be heated up, or can I just use the impeller pump to recirculate everything though the cooling system? If so, where is the best place to connect the pump to recirculate everything? (Note that I have an M35B, which seems to have very different hose routing from earlier Universal motors.


BA, correct you can use an impeller pump.

If you are using RydLyme it's best to NOT HEAT it (do you expect calcium deposits in the closed system?)

If you use a lime buster, of course, you cannot see inside to know when its finished its job.  You can use pH paper to check when the return solution has reached equilibrium -- i.e., the pH is no longer rising (RydLyme is an acid, so reacting with deposits will raise the pH of the return solution.)

Not sure what you mean re: the B series' having a VERY different coolant hose routing -- can you be specific? 
The only (major) difference would be that OEM, some older Universals (basically M-25s) had the water heater plumbed inline (in series) with the Hx, instead of on a separate, parallel loop (plumbed to the thermostat bypass.)  That's how M-25s were on the C-30, dunno if M-25s on the C-34 were the same.

See coolant routing (second article):
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/wiki/Home

Depending on where you introduce the flush and return the flush solution, determines what a parts of the engine it touches (water jacket, exhaust manifold, Hx, coolant pump, etc.)  So, theoretically, you don't HAVE TO remove the TStat, but it does make it easier to flush completely.

Lastly, not being too anal -- but you actually own an engine (not a motor.)  Flushing a motor wouldn't be a good idea. :shock: :shock: :shock:
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Stu Jackson on January 17, 2020, 01:56:02 PM
Quote from: Breakin Away on January 16, 2020, 07:49:08 PM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I thought I saw a video of a flushing procedure for the freshwater coolant side of the motor, where Rod had a circulation pump sitting in front of the motor. I poked around his YouTube channel which you linked, but I still can't find it. Maybe it was someone else's video.

Anyway, I'd love to hear what others do for flushing and rinsing of the freshwater side, as I haven't found much on this topic in my searches.

Yes, I thought I'd give it a try, but kinda knew it wasn't the freshwater side.  I don't recall MS doing a video on that, so could be someone else.  I do remember something like that, but could have been refilling the freshwater system after draining or replacing a water heater - his way to BURP.  I do recall it being one in front of the engine, too.  I don't recall seeing anything on the subject here either.

My methods over the years have consisted of:

1.  Breaking the old alternator mount, so when the alternator slammed down, it took out the freshwater hose and the oil filter.  Seems the oil filter "saved" the timing gear cover!  Anyway, I got to replace the coolant and the oil.  1999.  That's when I wrote my article about it, in the tech wiki.

2.  Replacing and/or removing the HX.  When I bought our boat I took the old 2" HX off and cleaned the salt off the inlet port, which had blocked 1/2 of it!  I did this every two years until I got my new 3" HX.  And then I had to replace that one when the support bracket broke and reamed a hole it it.  Many times replacing the coolant.

3.  Replacing the engine hoses.  Did them all maybe 7 years ago.

Lots of opportunities.  One thing, though, I never actually flushed the system, figuring that repeated refills of replacement of still good coolant would have done the job.

If I was doing it, I'd run the engine after draining the old coolant best I could, refilling with nothing but distilled water, drain and refill with coolant.  I've been using the environmentally friendly stuff, but haven't found it here yet, so will have to switch to "regular" next year or so.

I looked at photos of an M35B that are in this forum (search M35B flix) and didn't see anything apparent as to how to drain, since I do understand things are different on your engine than in my "Burping" photos.  But I'm sure you could find a place to disconnect a freshwater coolant hose and drain it via a funnel and hose into a bucket. 

Years ago someone suggested using one of the petcocks.  I disagreed.  I was in the building construction industry for 50 years, and learned that the small orifices on petcocks are notorious for getting clogged and then not closing properly.  I don't think it's worth the risk.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: KWKloeber on January 17, 2020, 04:02:40 PM
Stu

The google search link I posted to BA calls up the forums that have Rod's flushing procedure (and/or copy/pastes thereof) and one or two links to his pix (bucket sitting on the sole.)  I didn't find a vid of it, but I didn't take the time to search for every one of is posts to see if he linked to a vid. 

As soon as I get time I'll put Rods stuff on the wiki>engine.

The B series can be drained exactly the same as yours and mine. There's nothing different/exotic -- the coolant circulating pump has the "same" portside hose from the Hx to the pump to disconnect.  The hose from the exh manifold to the Hx is the same.  The hose from the Tstat housing to the exhaust manifold comes off the back of the Tstat, instead of the side - only difference.

Only one seawater hose is port-side (instead of stbd-side) but the coolant hoses are the same from the M25/35 to the XP to the XPA/35A to the XPB/35B.)

I don't know if you are aware - maybe you are -- our coolant petcock (stbd side) is a ball valve so, unlike a globe valve, there shouldn't be much to clog and a particle would be self cleared as far as when the valve is operated.  I've drained there many times, no runs, no drips, no errors.  Although, if not simply draining but "flushing" (like continuously with a hose or pump) there wouldn't be a reason to use it -- it's too small to get much circulating-flow.

IIRC Kubota uses drain plugs (1/8"? 1/4"?) on the B series instead of a drain cock (as Kb calls it on our M25.)
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Stu Jackson on January 18, 2020, 11:15:11 AM
Quote from: KWKloeber on January 17, 2020, 04:02:40 PM
Stu

The google search link I posted to BA calls up the forums that have Rod's flushing procedure (and/or copy/pastes thereof) and one or two links to his pix (bucket sitting on the sole.)  I didn't find a vid of it, but I didn't take the time to search for every one of is posts to see if he linked to a vid.  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I don't know if you are aware - maybe you are -- our coolant petcock (stbd side) is a ball valve so, unlike a globe valve, there shouldn't be much to clog and a particle would be self cleared as far as when the valve is operated.  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thanks, Ken.

This one makes sense:  https://forums.sailboatowners.com/threads/engine-flushing-cooling-system-question.106410/

It's the second one down in your Google results.

And I also think you meant gate valve, not globe.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: KWKloeber on January 18, 2020, 11:07:44 PM
Stu

This is RC's most complete procedure
https://www.sailnet.com/forums/1252482-post5.html

I just put it his steps and his pix on the
Wiki > Engine > Cooling (top entry.)





Actually, I did mean "globe."  The typical petcock drain (like atop our TStat) isn't a gate valve, nor a plug valve, nor a ball, diaphragm, butterfly, sliding knife gate, pinch, or wedge valve.  I don't know what's left. 

I thought it most resembles how a globe operates because it has a valve disk (chamfered plug type instead of flat or ball or cone) that closes against a valve seat (and can pinch debris and dribble.)
Shown closed against valve seat below.

(https://www.flyingspares.com/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/265x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/u/r/ur12417.jpg)

BUT, it has 3 differences (I know you know the details, this is for non techies.)
The action is reversed - the stem pulls up, instead of pushes down against the valve seat (coolant system pressure makes it seal better,)
The flow when open is thru the hollow stem (instead of an outlet above the valve seat,) and
It's missing the valve body (the radiator/engine block/tstat housing becomes the globe.) 

It was really quite an ingenious invention - eliminated many parts by combining functions and eliminated the need for a globe body.

I ran out of valve types, maybe there's a ME out there who can more properly identify the type!!??

A bit of Trivia - Henry used the same type ball valve petcock as we have on our engines on his Model T !!!

(http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/531600.jpg)
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Breakin Away on January 29, 2020, 08:12:31 AM
I made it down to the boat last night to do a couple of odd jobs. I went rooting around the port side of the engine (which is not easily accessible on the MkII boats) and found what I think is a pleasant surprise. I managed to get a decent pic, even though it was difficult for the camera phone to focus at such short range. I can't really see where this valve is tapped into, and the online pictures of the M35B don't catch the correct angle. It's either a second oil outlet from the crank case, or a drain valve from the coolant manifold. My guess is the latter, since it's clearly next to a screw-in "plug" (and far above the bottom of the oil plan), and I've heard mention of a coolant plug in this vicinity. But before I go opening it, I'd like your advice on which it is, and also a comment or two over whether this is a common feature or something that a PO tapped in as a custom job.

Also, I suspect at least one of you will notice the painted hose above it, which I think leads from the oil reservoir down to the oil pressure alarm switch (and optional port for oil pressure sender), and has no hose clamp on it. Is this unusual? I know from reaching down there that this will be extremely hard to access to add a clamp after the fact.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: KWKloeber on January 29, 2020, 12:57:14 PM
Quote from: Breakin Away on January 29, 2020, 08:12:31 AM

and the online pictures of the M35B don't catch the correct angle. I


painted hose ..... has no hose clamp on it.



Download a copy of your Operator's Manual from the Wiki!!  It shows 8) the coolant drain locations on the 25xpb, 35B, and 50B engines.   Someone exchanged the drain plug shown in the literature for your petcock. Nice! :thumb:
The exploded parts manual shows the drain plug as well (but doesn't ID it as "coolant".)


The OEM oil-pressure-switch hose has swaged ends, no clamps.  The last time I ordered one (to convert an M25 to add an oil pressure gauge) it had swivel ends (whether it was on one or both ends, I don't recall.)  Hose clamps wouldn't be appropriate OEM for an oil hose that could theoretically see 80+ psi.  One might get by with that if replacing one.

Note that over several years engine heat could deteriorate that hose and it leak - it happened on my M25 (at age 13 or thereabouts.)
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Breakin Away on January 30, 2020, 05:18:19 AM
I now see the swaged end in the picture. It was not obvious due to the paint.

I have all the manuals downloaded and in hard copies, and they are always my first point of reference. But I still wasn't sure exactly what I was taking a picture of because of how I had to blindly stick my phone down there, so I hoped some others would recognize it.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: KWKloeber on January 31, 2020, 04:14:36 PM
Quote from: Breakin Away on January 30, 2020, 05:18:19 AM
I now see the swaged end in the picture. It was not obvious due to the paint.

I have all the manuals downloaded and in hard copies, and they are always my first point of reference. But I still wasn't sure exactly what I was taking a picture of because of how I had to blindly stick my phone down there, so I hoped some others would recognize it.

BA, ok your post post threw me - I thought the issue was you couldn't locate the drain location in a manual, I didn't take it that the issue was locating it on the engine due to the limited space/view.

Anyhew, for other B engine owners, here it is:

Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Ron Hill on February 03, 2020, 03:09:56 PM
Guys : I'm absolutely baffled by a quest for the "BEST Anti freeze"?? 
I always thought that there were really only a couple of characteristics that you needed to for in anti freeze - at what low temperature does the mixture start to congeal, water-pump lubrication, rust inhibitor and some longevity (lasts more than a year before breaking down).  Most major brands profess they have these characteristics??!!

Also I'm interested in "who" it is that did all of the testing to decide "which" is the best!! Their criteria and test parameters??
Also It would seem to me that the "water (cooling) jacket" in any engine (spark or compression) is about the same. Temperature of approx 160 degrees also should be the same in our small diesel engines or small gasoline engines. Temp. Might be much higher in large truck engines?!? Probably be a difference depending on the metal that the engine block is cast out of.

A few thoughts
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Breakin Away on April 29, 2020, 11:35:34 AM
Quote from: Ron Hill on February 03, 2020, 03:09:56 PM
Guys : I'm absolutely baffled by a quest for the "BEST Anti freeze"?? 
I always thought that there were really only a couple of characteristics that you needed to for in anti freeze - at what low temperature does the mixture start to congeal, water-pump lubrication, rust inhibitor and some longevity (lasts more than a year before breaking down).  Most major brands profess they have these characteristics??!!

Also I'm interested in "who" it is that did all of the testing to decide "which" is the best!! Their criteria and test parameters??
Also It would seem to me that the "water (cooling) jacket" in any engine (spark or compression) is about the same. Temperature of approx 160 degrees also should be the same in our small diesel engines or small gasoline engines. Temp. Might be much higher in large truck engines?!? Probably be a difference depending on the metal that the engine block is cast out of.

A few thoughts
I'm coming back to this after a few months as I am working on spring commissioning.

Practical Sailor has done quite a bit of testing on diesel antifreeze over the years.

I haven't re-read everything from a few months ago, but IIRC the "best" antifreeze for diesel engines includes cavitation inhibitors that reduce cavitation pitting of the cylinder shells. This is not necessary in gasoline engines due to lower compression ratios, but on diesels the higher compression/vibrations can make that a factor. Since I'm due for a full antifreeze replacement, I'm going with Zerex G-05 HOAT, which tested well, is reasonably priced, and readily available.

I'd still like to do a mild acid wash of the freshwater cooling system (run it for 15 min or so, then rinse with water and fill with new antifreeze), and would like any advice on what I could use. Rydlyme is not readily available around here. I could try Barnacle Buster. What about cleaning vinegar? oxalic acid? diluted CLR?

I'd also like to do an acid clean of the raw water side of my HX. I'm thinking of removing my pencil anode and replacing it with a hose barb (1/4" NPT thread). Then I could either pump in/out some acid (displaced air would vent out the exhaust hose) using a portable impeller, or even just gravity feed the acid through a raised funnel/tube connected to the hose barb. The latter method has the advantage of giving me a lot of control over the exact amount needed, since I just put the funnel about an inch above the HX to fill the HX without overfilling into the other components. Once again, I'd appreciate advice of what, other than Rydlyme, I could use for this (cleaning vinegar/oxalic acid/CLR)
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: lazybone on April 29, 2020, 03:13:51 PM
Quote from: Breakin Away on April 29, 2020, 11:35:34 AM
Quote from: Ron Hill on February 03, 2020, 03:09:56 PM
Guys : I'm absolutely baffled by a quest for the "BEST Anti freeze"?? 
I always thought that there were really only a couple of characteristics that you needed to for in anti freeze - at what low temperature does the mixture start to congeal, water-pump lubrication, rust inhibitor and some longevity (lasts more than a year before breaking down).  Most major brands profess they have these characteristics??!!

Also I'm interested in "who" it is that did all of the testing to decide "which" is the best!! Their criteria and test parameters??
Also It would seem to me that the "water (cooling) jacket" in any engine (spark or compression) is about the same. Temperature of approx 160 degrees also should be the same in our small diesel engines or small gasoline engines. Temp. Might be much higher in large truck engines?!? Probably be a difference depending on the metal that the engine block is cast out of.

A few thoughts
I'm coming back to this after a few months as I am working on spring commissioning.

Practical Sailor has done quite a bit of testing on diesel antifreeze over the years.

I haven't re-read everything from a few months ago, but IIRC the "best" antifreeze for diesel engines includes cavitation inhibitors that reduce cavitation pitting of the cylinder shells. This is not necessary in gasoline engines due to lower compression ratios, but on diesels the higher compression/vibrations can make that a factor. Since I'm due for a full antifreeze replacement, I'm going with Zerex G-05 HOAT, which tested well, is reasonably priced, and readily available.

I'd still like to do a mild acid wash of the freshwater cooling system (run it for 15 min or so, then rinse with water and fill with new antifreeze), and would like any advice on what I could use. Rydlyme is not readily available around here. I could try Barnacle Buster. What about cleaning vinegar? oxalic acid? diluted CLR?

I'd also like to do an acid clean of the raw water side of my HX. I'm thinking of removing my pencil anode and replacing it with a hose barb (5/16" UNC, if I can find it?). Then I could either pump in/out some acid (displaced air would vent out the exhaust hose) using a portable impeller, or even just gravity feed the acid through a raised funnel/tube connected to the hose barb. The latter method has the advantage of giving me a lot of control over the exact amount needed, since I just put the funnel about an inch above the HX to fill the HX without overfilling into the other components. Once again, I'd appreciate advice of what, other than Rydlyme, I could use for this (cleaning vinegar/oxalic acid/CLR)

I would like to read more about how antifreeze additives inhibit cavitation in combustion cylinders.  Could you direct me to your source?  Or maybe I misunderstood your post.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Breakin Away on April 29, 2020, 06:02:12 PM
Quote from: lazybone on April 29, 2020, 03:13:51 PM
I would like to read more about how antifreeze additives inhibit cavitation in combustion cylinders.  Could you direct me to your source?  Or maybe I misunderstood your post.
It's not in the cylinders, but outside the liners. Caused by ultrasonic waves from the high pressure "explosions" of diesel combustion. This article describes the issue:
https://www.practical-sailor.com/boat-maintenance/coolants-that-fight-corrosion

Regarding my prior inquiry about finding an economical acid cleaner for flushing my raw water and freshwater (coolant) systems, I am concerned about using a raw, uninhibited acid in my engine (acetic, oxalic, muriatic, citric, etc.). But there are dozens of pre-formulated products sold for automotive applications that need to strike the same balance of effectiveness against minerals vs. inhibition against attacking the metal components. Is there any reason not to flush with a Prestone (or similar) radiator cleaner instead of Rydlyme?
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Noah on April 29, 2020, 06:18:43 PM
IMO —Breakin' — you are way over-thinking it... as the Practical Sailor article says " If you run your engines hard for over 1,000 hours per year-commercial fishing, perhaps-then SCAs should be a part of your maintenance program. If you barely burn a tank of fuel each season, you will be fine replacing the coolant every five years." I say go with a typical brand name  "green poly glycol" stuff and forget about it. Caveat: I am NOT a mechanic. 8)
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Breakin Away on April 29, 2020, 06:37:34 PM
Quote from: Noah on April 29, 2020, 06:18:43 PM
IMO —Breakin' — you are way over-thinking it... as the Practical Sailor article says " If you run your engines hard for over 1,000 hours per year-commercial fishing, perhaps-then SCAs should be a part of your maintenance program. If you barely burn a tank of fuel each season, you will be fine replacing the coolant every five years." I say go with a typical brand name  "green poly glycol" stuff and forget about it. Caveat: I am NOT a mechanic. 8)
I suggest you re-read the article, especially the paragraph before the one you quoted. They describe a maintenance program of regularly replenishing the SCAs with supplemental additives. Such frequent (annual or more) replenishment of the SCAs is only needed if you put on 1000 hours a year. For the rest of us, replacing the coolant every five years is good enough. That's what they're actually saying.

And their conclusion is "If you have a diesel engine, you are safer with a diesel product, something that is formulated to handle the diesel clatter." In other words, use a heavy duty coolant formulated with SCAs for diesel engines. Pick one from their list - I chose Zerex G-05.

I've also had discussions about this in other forums with Drew Frye (who was involved in the Practical Sailor testing) and Maine Sail. Neither says that our diesels are going to explode from using normal green stuff, but I'm due to replace my coolant anyway, so I have no reason not to go with Zerex G-05, and have some data that says it would be beneficial. The "corrosion" column of Practical Sailor's test lineup makes the difference pretty clear.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Noah on April 29, 2020, 07:07:21 PM
Whatever works for you. Mine has been running "green" for past five years and the previous owner used same for five years before—-don't know what was used before way back to 1990. But, do know my 25XP engine runs fine, with no apparent issues (Hope this doesn't jinx it  :D )
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: lazybone on April 30, 2020, 02:08:44 PM
Quote from: Breakin Away on April 29, 2020, 06:02:12 PM
Quote from: lazybone on April 29, 2020, 03:13:51 PM
I would like to read more about how antifreeze additives inhibit cavitation in combustion cylinders.  Could you direct me to your source?  Or maybe I misunderstood your post.
It's not in the cylinders, but outside the liners. Caused by ultrasonic waves from the high pressure "explosions" of diesel combustion. This article describes the issue:
https://www.practical-sailor.com/boat-maintenance/coolants-that-fight-corrosion

Regarding my prior inquiry about finding an economical acid cleaner for flushing my raw water and freshwater (coolant) systems, I am concerned about using a raw, uninhibited acid in my engine (acetic, oxalic, muriatic, citric, etc.). But there are dozens of pre-formulated products sold for automotive applications that need to strike the same balance of effectiveness against minerals vs. inhibition against attacking the metal components. Is there any reason not to flush with a Prestone (or similar) radiator cleaner instead of Rydlyme?

Thank you for that.  I also found some other articles.  "Down the rabbit hole"
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Ron Hill on April 30, 2020, 02:42:02 PM
Guys : After all that - think I'll just sail in and out of my slip!!  or just stay at the dock and work on the teak!!   :nail

A thought
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Breakin Away on April 30, 2020, 06:15:20 PM
First, I want to reiterate that our Universal diesels will probably be just fine with ordinary green glycol coolant. I'm going with the Zerex out of abundance of caution, but I think most of the "ringing" cavitation issues happen with diesels with different designs from the Universal. But the G-05 can't hurt, might last longer, and was on sale for a very reasonable price.

Regarding my coolant replacement plan, I think I'm just going to go with a distilled water rinse and re-fill. I have no discoloration or other indications of corrosion. The commercial cleaners appear to be just 10% sodium citrate, which as far as I can tell isn't a cleaner at all, but more of a weak base to neutralize acid buildup from old antifreeze. It seems like old fashioned acidic cleaners are no longer found in auto stores due to the proliferation of delicate aluminum radiators and environmental concerns. So I'm going to stop over-thinking it and just rinse and replace.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Breakin Away on May 17, 2020, 08:52:14 PM
Just to close out this issue, I completed the distilled water rinse and coolant replacement a couple weeks ago. I had some minor issues with air pockets and establishing the siphon from the coolant reservoir, but resolved them using a portable electric impeller pump recirculating through the hot water heater (pump from from full exhaust manifold and pump into hose removed from nipple of water pump while plugging the nipple) and then removing the reservoir tube from the exhaust manifold and pumping back into the reservoir to eliminate air pockets in the high spots of the feed tube.

Regarding the use of Zerex G05, I had heard it referred to as "yellow" so was expecting it to have some bright yellow dye. Instead, I'd call it more of a faint "amber" color which make it tough to distinguish from other fluids. If you see a little pink or green liquid in the bilge or other low spots, you immediately know what fluid it is. With the Zerex, you can't really tell if it's seawater, freshwater, or coolant. On the plus side, it is much more transparent than the green liquid, so I expect that it will be easier to detect if there is any precipitate in the coolant reservoir or exhaust manifold.

I've put 15 hours on the motor in the past 2 days, and it ran great and held temperature under load.
Title: Re: Antifreeze: Which type is best?
Post by: Ron Hill on May 18, 2020, 03:13:40 PM
Guys : Always use distilled water in your anti freeze mix because you don't know the mineral content in tap water!!!

I've been lucky as I have an old 1948 GE fridge in the garage along side of a 1965 Sears freezer.  Both need defrosting periodically, so I have a ready made source of distilled water!!  It's amazing that that GE fridge defrosts in short order by reversing the "cooling" cycle!  And they say that old stuff wasn't engineered!!   :clap

A thought