The engine gauges on the cockpit instrument panel work only about half the time. My thought is there is some corrosion somewhere, but I have not been able to find it.
The gauges either all work or none work (tachometer, fuel gauge, engine temperature). However, when they aren't working, if the engine is running and I turn the key to heat the glow plugs, the gauges will work as long as I hold the key in that position. When I release they key they stop working.
Does anybody have an idea what's going on or where I should look to fix the problem?
Chris what troubleshooting have you done to isolate the cause?
Which engine do you have?
With no other info I'd suspect a bad key switch but.....
Chris,
KWKloeber is right the more information you post the more help you're likely to get. Example, if you post the year and model that will key in the guys who have the same boat and may have run into the same problem. When you looked for corrosion did you pull the panel so you could check behind it? I'm not familiar with your ignition switch, on my boat the keyed ignition switch is ON/OFF only and I have a separate button for the glow plugs.
Based on the information you provided I would suspect a faulty ground. In an instrument panel the instruments can all be run off of one ground nearby, it saves unnecessarily long wire runs. Power on the other hand usually comes from a variety of sources which would seem to make it unlikely that there would be a failure from multiple sources.
I have a 1994 with a Universal 25-XP engine. The ignition switch is a keyed one with on/off/glow. A separate button starts the engine.
Quote from: scgunner on February 03, 2019, 08:18:44 AM
Chris,
KWKloeber is right the more information you post the more help you're likely to get. Example, if you post the year and model that will key in the guys who have the same boat and may have run into the same problem. When you looked for corrosion did you pull the panel so you could check behind it? I'm not familiar with your ignition switch, on my boat the keyed ignition switch is ON/OFF only and I have a separate button for the glow plugs.
Based on the information you provided I would suspect a faulty ground. In an instrument panel the instruments can all be run off of one ground nearby, it saves unnecessarily long wire runs. Power on the other hand usually comes from a variety of sources which would seem to make it unlikely that there would be a failure from multiple sources.
I did pull the panel out. I replaced some connections in there where the wire strands were coming out, but to no avail. I checked the resistance in the wire from the battery to the ignition and it was fine. I couldn't find a good path though from the panel to the DC negative bus. So what you are saying makes sense. I do get 12+ voltage between the battery connection on the ignition switch and the connection labeled "solenoid".
Since I first posted I found a wire that looks like it should be a ground for the instruments, but I am not sure. I am finding now that there is no connectivity through it to the negative bus bar. So it looks like that might be it. I will try to trace this wire.
Chris
Do you still have the oem Gummy Bear plugs behind the panel and in the engine space?
Are you saying you have a neg buss in the engine space. Pictures!
The panel ground is the #10 black wire in the harness, probably coming off a gauge negative post, like the tach. On the (oem) m-25/XP, it terminates on one of the exhaust manifold studs (terrible place) so it uses the engine and battery negative cable on (oem) a bell housing bolt (poor location.)
A poor ground could cause the symptom, because the only function of the panel negative is for the gauges and blower. All else depends on the engine ground. However, because it disappeares when preheating, that wouldn't affect the ground. If PO did work, any/all bets (below) are off.
Gauges are powered thru the I terminal of the key switch. Preheat is thru the S terminal, which also energizes the I terminal. Bet a beer? Replace the switch and at least that one problem will disappear. :thumb: If the engine electrical is oem they'll be others.
You can prove it out — when the key is in the I position (and no gauges,) with a screwdriver short from the B terminal (red power feed) to the I terminal and you **should** have your gauges.
Use a Cole Hersee 3 position sw with a weather boot:
https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2290051%7C2290053&id=617149
https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2290051%7C2290062&id=917192
While you're in the weeds, replace your start switch:
https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2290051%7C2290054&id=618206
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 03, 2019, 10:17:40 AM
Chris
Do you still have the oem Gummy Bear plugs behind the panel and in the engine space?
Are you saying you have a neg buss in the engine space. Pictures!
The panel ground is the #10 black wire in the harness, probably coming off a gauge negative post, like the tach. On the (oem) m-25/XP, it terminates on one of the exhaust manifold studs (terrible place) so it uses the engine and battery negative cable on (oem) a bell housing bolt (poor location.)
A poor ground could cause the symptom, because the only function of the panel negative is for the gauges and blower. All else depends on the engine ground. However, because it disappeares when preheating, that wouldn't affect the ground. If PO did work, any/all bets (below) are off.
Gauges are powered thru the I terminal of the key switch. Preheat is thru the S terminal, which also energizes the I terminal. Bet a beer? Replace the switch and at least that one problem will disappear. :thumb: If the engine electrical is oem they'll be others.
You can prove it out — when the key is in the I position (and no gauges,) with a screwdriver short from the B terminal (red power feed) to the I terminal and you **should** have your gauges.
Use a Cole Hersee 3 position sw with a weather boot:
https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2290051%7C2290053&id=617149
https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2290051%7C2290062&id=917192
While you're in the weeds, replace your start switch:
https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C328%7C2290051%7C2290054&id=618206
I will post pictures next weekend; I have to remove a chainplate the rest of the day. Not sure if I have gummy bear plugs. Should the panel ground be connected to the negative bus behind the electrical panel near the chart desk? That is what I had thought.. I think I've identified the correct panel ground wire like you describe.
I should have mentioned that the key switch is new. I bought it from catalinadirect about six months ago. I installed it myself so it is possible that I hooked it up incorrectly, but I kept track of which wires go where, and I had the same problems now as I did before. The new one has a boot.
Thanks so much for the help.
As I said.
Panel negative:
On the (oem) m-25/XP, it terminates on one of the exhaust manifold studs (terrible place) [with a ring terminal under the nut] so it uses the engine and battery negative cable on (oem) a bell housing bolt (poor location.)
NO, OEM the negative does NOT run to the panel neg bus bar. The battery neg cable is right there, no need to run to the oanel.
If PO rewired, who knows??
-ken
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 03, 2019, 05:34:35 PM
As I said.
Panel negative:
On the (oem) m-25/XP, it terminates on one of the exhaust manifold studs (terrible place) [with a ring terminal under the nut] so it uses the engine and battery negative cable on (oem) a bell housing bolt (poor location.)
NO, OEM the negative does NOT run to the panel neg bus bar. The battery neg cable is right there, no need to run to the oanel.
If PO rewired, who knows??
-ken
Found where the panel ground connects to the engine. There are two wires hooked there, the largest one goes to the battery. The smaller one looks about the same size as the wire I identified as the panel ground behind the panel, the only wire of that color and size.. However, that large black wire from the panel does not connect to the one on the engine. Instead, a smaller red wire is the only one that seems to connect to it. And this smaller red wire is hooked up to a corroded switch for a blower that I have no idea if it exists or works. Did Catalina install blowers?
It's getting too dark now but it looks like I can just connect that red wire to where the large black wire is currently, but that doesn't seem right. I don't know, but it looks like to me that someone cut the panel negative wire and spliced a small (maybe 16awg) wire onto it. Why I have no idea.
Thanks so much for your help.
Chris
I cannot follow what you're describing...
The panel ground attaches to the engine. Where on the engine? PICTURES! Are you saying a battery cable?? Or just a heavy wire that goes to the battery?
But the large wire from the panel does not attach to the engine. WHAT large wire? Color?
I have NO idea what you are describing.
What colors? What gauge wire? PICTURES!!
It seems you're chasing wires with no plan/troubleshooting.
Did you do the test I said to isolate whether it's a power problem or a negative problem?
With the key ON (and gauges not working) short the switch B terminal to the I terminal. Do the gauges work?
Catalina installed a blower under the coming, the toggle switch being on the cockpit panel.
Red is not a negative (or **shouldn't** be anyway.)
i.e., need MORE and BETTER/COMPLETE info! It's ok if you don't know the precise/accurate terms or whatever, there's a lot of peeps who are ignorant of the wiring -- it isn't user-friendly! But then you have to give us complete info and pics.
Q? Did you download a manual?
There's a schematic with all the harness wire gauges and colors and connection points at the engine components. Well, what the colors **should be** anyway -- again if a PO had hands on it, then yah nevah know. The panel negative is wire #1 in the harness and thru the gummy bear plugs. Do you still have the plugs or are they gone?
I have an Excel file that lists what the harness wires SHOULD be on the M25/XP. Sometimes the colors vary on the tach signal and the preheat circuit. I can't attach an XLS file, but could email it?
-ken
I temporarily stuck the file here:
http://c34.org/wiki/images/b/b7/Copy_of_David%27s_engine_harness.xls
-ken
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 06, 2019, 05:30:01 PM
Chris
I cannot follow what you're describing...
The panel ground attaches to the engine. Where on the engine? PICTURES! Are you saying a battery cable?? Or just a heavy wire that goes to the battery?
But the large wire from the panel does not attach to the engine. WHAT large wire? Color?
I have NO idea what you are describing.
What colors? What gauge wire? PICTURES!!
It seems you're chasing wires with no plan/troubleshooting.
Did you do the test I said to isolate whether it's a power problem or a negative problem?
With the key ON (and gauges not working) short the switch B terminal to the I terminal. Do the gauges work?
Catalina installed a blower under the coming, the toggle switch being on the cockpit panel.
Red is not a negative (or **shouldn't** be anyway.)
i.e., need MORE and BETTER/COMPLETE info! It's ok if you don't know the precise/accurate terms or whatever, there's a lot of peeps who are ignorant of the wiring -- it isn't user-friendly! But then you have to give us complete info and pics.
Q? Did you download a manual?
There's a schematic with all the harness wire gauges and colors and connection points at the engine components. Well, what the colors **should be** anyway -- again if a PO had hands on it, then yah nevah know. The panel negative is wire #1 in the harness and thru the gummy bear plugs. Do you still have the plugs or are they gone?
I have an Excel file that lists what the harness wires SHOULD be on the M25/XP. Sometimes the colors vary on the tach signal and the preheat circuit. I can't attach an XLS file, but could email it?
-ken
First of all, thank you for your patience with me here. I have a tiny smartphone that I am usually reading and writing with on the boat. At the moment I have a regular monitor and keyboard. Perhaps I can be more clear now. Sorry I don't have pictures yet but will post some this weekend.
I found, (or thought I found) using your advice, where the panel negative should attach to the engine. It is way in the back near where the diagram in the manual said the exhaust manifold should be. Both of them were black. One was maybe a #4-#6 awg that I tested and connects to the batteries. The other is maybe a #10 awg (black). This #10 black does NOT connect to the #10 black that is attached to the back of the tachometer. Instead, that #10 black from the engine is connected to a #14-#16 RED wire that goes into a defunct switch for a blower.
I do have a manual for the engine. It came with the boat and is a hard copy in a binder. I don't have it handy with me now. It shows wiring harness diagrams but is not very clear (to me anyway) where everything is hooked up. It says that the panel negative eventually connects to the battery, but it does not mention how exactly. Anyway, I do not trust that it accurately represents the actual wiring in my boat.
I have not tried shorting the wires on the key switch yet. But I am pretty convinced it is a problem with the negative side. I downloaded the spreadsheet you posted and will use it this weekend. Thanks again. You have been a lot of help. Sorry if I still haven't been clear; maybe I will after posting pictures.
I'm on my phone.m now. I feel your pain.
Ok the two are likely on a bell housing bolt so the #10 gauge isn't there OEM was the PO made some mod.
The exhaust manifold is on the side of the engine (with the coolant fill pressure cap.). You may be referring to the exhaust flange or riser off the exhaust manifold?
If you have the new style alt bracket that bolts to the exh man studs that's where the OEM harness neg was.
To improve things the battery neg cable should be moved to a starter bolt, a heavy cable rin to a neg bus or a power post in the compartment and all your negatives run to that bus.
Presuming you have the basic charging setup, heavy alt out and alt ground cables should be run to the starter solenoid B post and to that starter bolt (bat neg cable.)
You may have a ground problem, but explain how energizing the glow plug circuit corrects that? That's what doesn't make sense to me.
It doesn't make any sense that there would be a neg running to a blower switch, no matter what color the wire.
Lotsa pix, many angles. The panel also.
-k
Chris : It has been my experience on a C34 that when some electrical thing isn't working correctly, it's a BAD ground or a bad inline fuse connection!!
I spent a couple of hours one afternoon bent over my engine instrument panel and soldered each and every ring connector. It only took a second to take each ring off its terminal and make sure that the wire in each ring was "electrically" connected. Just make sure that you don't have any corrosion.
To answer your question ... Yes, Catalina still installed a blower in boats with a diesel engine. I used my blower before starting the engine, if I had had the Propane ON. Probably not necessary, but it was there so why not use it?
A few thoughts
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 03, 2019, 05:34:35 PM
Panel negative:
On the (oem) m-25/XP, it terminates on one of the exhaust manifold studs (terrible place) [with a ring terminal under the nut] so it uses the engine and battery negative cable on (oem) a bell housing bolt (poor location.)
Chris
Here are pix of where the harness negative might typically terminate:
(http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/attachment.php?attachmentid=13578)
(http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/attachment.php?attachmentid=13577)
Here's the gummy bear plug to look for (also behind the panel.) Notice the OEM location of the harness negative ring terminal underneath the manifold stud nut.
(http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9567.0;attach=8773;image)
And why you want to eliminate them:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8580.msg60715.html#msg60715
This thread and the forensics might help you a little with finding your way around the engine/wiring/other:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9567.msg72137.html#msg72137
It looks like my last post didn't go through. I tried to upload some pictures.
I tried shorting the B to the I and the gauges do work when I do this. So does this mean it's probably not a ground problem after all?
It seems strange to me that it would be a bad switch seeing as it is new and I had the same problem with the old one.
[edit]. Repost ur pix. There's an auto resize extension that is supposed to blow down large attachments but sometimes it chooches out.
You could still have other issues.
Back up (actually down) to my 2nd post.
What brand key switch did you use?
It could be, but unlikely, that you have more electrocical type current going thru that switch than intended and is burning the I contacts. Disconnect the leads, power the gauges directly and count the electrons passing that way. Maybe there's a partial short that's pulling current but not enough (yet) to fry a wire insulation or burn up the harness/panel/boat. Gauges pull inconsequential current.
As I've hollered about too many times THE OEM HARNESS IS NON COMPLIANT AND A FIRE HAZARD and **must** be fixed by adding a fuse.
Hopefully your issue is just a bad switch. Use a skookum one (nuttin but Cole Hersee.)
k
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 09, 2019, 11:01:24 AM
[edit]. Repost ur pix. There's an auto resize extension that is supposed to blow down large attachments but sometimes it chooches out.
You could still have other issues.
Back up (actually down) to my 2nd post.
What brand key switch did you use?
It could be, but unlikely, that you have more electrocical type current going thru that switch than intended and is burning the I contacts. Disconnect the leads, power the gauges directly and count the electrons passing that way. Maybe there's a partial short that's pulling current but not enough (yet) to fry a wire insulation or burn up the harness/panel/boat. Gauges pull inconsequential current.
As I've hollered about too many times THE OEM HARNESS IS NON COMPLIANT AND A FIRE HAZARD and **must** be fixed by adding a fuse.
Hopefully your issue is just a bad switch. Use a skookum one (nuttin but Cole Hersee.)
k
This is the key switch I have:
https://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/1303_748/3-position-ignition-switch.cfm
It's a Sea Dog.
I measured 10 milliamps for the gauges. The engine wasn't running when I checked. I had a little trouble gatting the current to flow through my multimeter for some reason. I'll try to post pictures again.
The file sizes are too big for me to upload the pictures. After multiple retries I finally get an error message. I am going to have to find a way to make them smaller or open an account somewhere that will let me upload them and then link them here.
If you haven't. Try one at a time.
Otherwise search on the subject on the home page (not here) search box.
It's been well discussed before b
Quote from: ChrisW on February 09, 2019, 12:48:17 PM
The file sizes are too big for me to upload the pictures. After multiple retries I finally get an error message. I am going to have to find a way to make them smaller or open an account somewhere that will let me upload them and then link them here.
Chris,
From the 101 Topics:
Posting and RESIZING Photos 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3701.0.html
Ken's right, just do a few at a time. I find medium works just fine, even small, when you resize.
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 09, 2019, 11:01:24 AM
[edit]. Repost ur pix. There's an auto resize extension that is supposed to blow down large attachments but sometimes it chooches out.
You could still have other issues.
Back up (actually down) to my 2nd post.
What brand key switch did you use?
It could be, but unlikely, that you have more electrocical type current going thru that switch than intended and is burning the I contacts. Disconnect the leads, power the gauges directly and count the electrons passing that way. Maybe there's a partial short that's pulling current but not enough (yet) to fry a wire insulation or burn up the harness/panel/boat. Gauges pull inconsequential current.
As I've hollered about too many times THE OEM HARNESS IS NON COMPLIANT AND A FIRE HAZARD and **must** be fixed by adding a fuse.
Hopefully your issue is just a bad switch. Use a skookum one (nuttin but Cole Hersee.)
k
The wire in the picture was attached to the I terminal of the key switch. I have no idea where it goes to. It's 12 gauge duplex cable. Only the red wire was connected to the I. When I remove it the engine starts just fine. This was the wire that I replaced a connecter on last week. But the plastic around the edges look just a little bit burnt.
First image is of the harness behind the panel.
Second is the side of exhaust manifold where I now know the panel negative is connected. It's a black wire under the green one.
Third is back of the panel.
Can't see all the sw, need another angle (<<<Lotsa pix, many angles. The panel also.>>> !!)
Is that a BARE BLACK wire on another switch terminal? B or S terminal?
What wires are on
the S terminal?
the B terminal?
The black box in the engine compartment is the preheat relay modification, which energizes your glow plugs.
FYI (JTSO) a really stupid and over-hyped mod that adds multiple failure points and failure modes to your electrical and starting, with the benefit of saving you 15 seconds in preheat time. whoopie.
The purple wire powers your gauges and likely the alternator field excite.
The red wire is likely your fuel pump.
PO's duplex wire could be ?????? who knows.
In summary, you need a good go thru on the wiring at the engine end and suggest the improvements I previously posted for there.
Chris
The green wire underneath the harness negative (manifold stud) is the negative side of the coil of the added-on relay that powers the glow plugs.
It appers that you still have the gummy bear plug on the harness behind the panel. How about on the engine end?
That plug HAS TO GO.
The panel should be rewired with marine grade heat-shrink terminals and lose the automobile Sta-Kon terminals.
Same for ALL the engine component terminals on the other end. Replace the yellow/red stripe "S" wire if it is not 10 gauge.
Plus the stuff prev posted.
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 09, 2019, 02:25:39 PM
Can't see all the sw, need another angle (<<<Lotsa pix, many angles. The panel also.>>> !!)
Is that a BARE BLACK wire on another switch terminal? B or S terminal?
What wires are on
the S terminal?
the B terminal?
The black box in the engine compartment is the preheat relay modification, which energizes your glow plugs.
FYI (JTSO) a really stupid and over-hyped mod that adds multiple failure points and failure modes to your electrical and starting, with the benefit of saving you 15 seconds in preheat time. whoopie.
The purple wire powers your gauges and likely the alternator field excite.
The red wire is likely your fuel pump.
PO's duplex wire could be ?????? who knows.
In summary, you need a good go thru on the wiring at the engine end and suggest the improvements I previously posted for there.
Sorry, that bare black wire was what I put in temporarily today to short the I to the B on the key switch. It's gone now.
Which red wire are you referring to in regards to the fuel pump? Where should it be attached? In the wiring diagram for the engine, on the key switch there are only two terminals: B and A, and it says the fuel pump should be attached to A. But I only have B, S, and I.
The red wire is on the B. A white wire is connected to S. Purple and the red wire from the duplex cable is on I. The red wire is from the battery. Nowhere in the wiring diagram is there mention of a white wire. In fact, the whole wiring diagram does not seem to make any sense. It shows the purple wire going to and from the key switch but I only have it going out of it.
It looks like I am just going to have to start from scratch and rewire the whole damn thing.
Use the file I had w/ the descriptions, I SAID, colors can change. They are not consistent between ALL years/panels/engines. They can even change between what Seaward and Universal used, and the harness CTY ran between those two.
The RED wire on I is likely your fuel pump, powered whenever the key is on.
OK, now I see the #10 WHT wire on S now - that powers the coil on the preheat relay down below. It used to run to the glow plugs (might be called out as gray?)
The #10 RED on B is the power feed from the starter solenoid B terminal (UNFUSED!!!!)
The yellow wire from the Start PB is the "S" wire circuit to the starter solenoid. It's light, needs to be #10 gauge.
The #10 orange wire from the harness -- where does that terminate on the panel (just unused and hanging)? After you remove the gummy bear plug, you can substitute that #10 orange wire for the "S" circuit.
On the schematic basically, A is I. The start and preheat were separate push buttons -- BUT REMEMBER the M-25/XP schematic is for the Universal panel, NOT your (or my) Seaward panel that CTY installed. There were 3-4 different Seaward panels produced for the M25 and XP. I have a key start and separate preheat toggle sw. So no single schematic covers all the permutations.
PO obviously powered something else from I - have no clue. Trace it?
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 09, 2019, 05:08:41 PM
Use the file I had w/ the descriptions, I SAID, colors can change. They are not consistent between ALL years/panels/engines. They can even change between what Seaward and Universal used, and the harness CTY ran between those two.
The RED wire on I is likely your fuel pump, powered whenever the key is on.
OK, now I see the #10 WHT wire on S now - that powers the coil on the preheat relay down below. It used to run to the glow plugs (might be called out as gray?)
The #10 RED on B is the power feed from the starter solenoid B terminal (UNFUSED!!!!)
The yellow wire from the Start PB is the "S" wire circuit to the starter solenoid. It's light, needs to be #10 gauge.
The #10 orange wire from the harness -- where does that terminate on the panel (just unused and hanging)? After you remove the gummy bear plug, you can substitute that #10 orange wire for the "S" circuit.
On the schematic basically, A is I. The start and preheat were separate push buttons -- BUT REMEMBER the M-25/XP schematic is for the Universal panel, NOT your (or my) Seaward panel that CTY installed. There were 3-4 different Seaward panels produced for the M25 and XP. I have a key start and separate preheat toggle sw. So no single schematic covers all the permutations.
PO obviously powered something else from I - have no clue. Trace it?
I apologize for this, but the picture I uploaded made it look like an additional red wire is attached to the I terminal. It is actually just dangling and it was for a cigarette lighter that does not work anymore. I removed it from the B terminal. So there are only two wires connected to the I terminal: purple, and the red from the duplex.
I traced that duplex wire to the fuel pump. But if the I terminal on the key switch was not getting power, how was the fuel pump getting power? Would the engine start without a working fuel pump? Well, I am not sure, but it looks like it could be getting power from a different source. In the attached picture you can see where the connection is made from the duplex wire and a separate set of red and black wires. Now it may be that that other wire is not powering the fuel pump. I haven't figured it out yet where it goes.
The orange wire is just dangling there behind the panel and near the engine.
I am going to post some better pictures in a little while including the panel and engine harness.
Panel and engine harness
Another view of engine showing alternator.
Additional views from behind panel.
If it was my boat I would quit trying to chase etc. as you have enough old/bad wire and parts that could use replacing. I would (and have done) the following:
1. Remove the panel and clean-up rewire/recrimp all gauge connections,
2. Update the old panel faceplate to new version and remove the alarm circuit board, and replace any "sketchy" parts, add the dual alarm temp and pressure modification to engine.
3. Remove and replace the wiring harness with new tinned wire harness, directly wiring it to panel and engine—eliminating all plugs. All parts are available from www.CatalinaDirect.com or you can make your own harness or perhaps buy harness from Ken K.
Quote from: Noah on February 10, 2019, 10:03:29 AM
If it was my boat I would quit trying to chase etc. as you have enough old/bad wire and parts that could use replacing. I would (and have done) the following:
1. Remove the panel and clean-up rewire/recrimp all gauge connections,
2. Update the old panel faceplate to new version and remove the alarm circuit board, and replace any "sketchy" parts, add the dual alarm temp and pressure modification to engine.
3. Remove and replace the wiring harness with new tinned wire harness, directly wiring it to panel and engine—eliminating all plugs. All parts are available from www.CatalinaDirect.com or you can make your own harness or perhaps buy harness from Ken K.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :thumb: :thumb:
Quote from: Noah on February 10, 2019, 10:03:29 AM
If it was my boat I would quit trying to chase etc. as you have enough old/bad wire and parts that could use replacing. I would (and have done) the following:
1. Remove the panel and clean-up rewire/recrimp all gauge connections,
2. Update the old panel faceplate to new version and remove the alarm circuit board, and replace any "sketchy" parts, add the dual alarm temp and pressure modification to engine.
3. Remove and replace the wiring harness with new tinned wire harness, directly wiring it to panel and engine—eliminating all plugs. All parts are available from www.CatalinaDirect.com or you can make your own harness or perhaps buy harness from Ken K.
This is what I'll do then, as well as the other suggestions made by Ken. Thanks everybody for your help.
On the C34 I understand that the fuel can flow w/o the pump being on (if the tank is half full?)
C34 owners can speak better to that.
If you have the cash to spend, then replace the whole shebang as Noah suggests.
Whether you NEED to, depends on the condition of the copper conductors. For instance, if they have chased corrosion along the untinned copper, replace em. But if the conductors are ok, then once you use adhesive heat shrink terminals (step 3/4 below) the harness will be 99% as good as a new one - You've prevented moisture from getting to the copper. OMB, I clipped the harness back a foot, added new, longer pigtails w/AHS terminals, and voila saved a ton of cash and have a "marine grade" harness.
If not then IIWMB I'd do these steps to get away at least expense:
1 - replace the key sw. Do all sws if they are old.
2 - lose the gummy bear plug(s) - butt splice end together. (If you need more length to do that then do #3)
3 - refurb the wiring terminals (new short jumpers?) on the panel, if needed add longer pigtails to make it easy to pull the panel.
4 - refurb the engine end of the harness, new heat shrink terminals, substituting the ORG for the YEL/RED. Fuse the red power wire on the B solenoid terminal.
5 - Do the other alt out and alt ground, and battery neg cable (and other negatives) improvements posted previously
6. Substitute the ORG for the YEL wire (see *** below).
***Use the #10 ORG in place of the lighter gauge YEL. Put yellow heat shrink tubing on each end and add a red stripe w/ Sharpie(tm) to identify that. A different color isn't fatal, it's just that YEL/RED stripe is the standard for the starter solenoid circuit. Or mark the ORG w/ a label gun and cover w/ clear HST (Or do both!) Keep the yellow wire handy. The alarm circuit board on the back of the panel is prone to failure, no replacement. Then you can use the YEL to add a hi-temp switch on the engine thermostat housing. There's other ways to do that, but having the unused YEL wire just makes it easy.
I have posted before about "strongly" disagreeing with buying a substandard harness from CD, but that's YBYC. I feel the same about the CD panel. (can't do a thumbs down)
Quote from: ChrisW on February 10, 2019, 11:39:03 AM
This is what I'll do then
Chris just do homework before buying...
Believe it or not, there's folks out there who can rip you off on inferior products.
You want to install a "marine" ABYC compliant harness and panel :thumb: Not a (IMO) junk one that has cheaper, non-marine terminals. :shock:
jus sayin'
(http://c34.org/wiki/images/3/3c/Cs36_harness.JPG)
(https://www.catalinadirect.com/images/products/Z2950_S01.jpg)
(http://c34.org/wiki/images/f/f2/Z2644_S03_849.jpg)
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 10, 2019, 11:52:59 AM
On the C34 I understand that the fuel can flow w/o the pump being on (if the tank is half full?)
C34 owners can speak better to that.
If you have the cash to spend, then replace the whole shebang as Noah suggests.
Whether you NEED to, depends on the condition of the copper conductors. For instance, if they have chased corrosion along the untinned copper, replace em. But if the conductors are ok, then once you use adhesive heat shrink terminals (step 3/4 below) the harness will be 99% as good as a new one - You've prevented moisture from getting to the copper. OMB, I clipped the harness back a foot, added new, longer pigtails w/AHS terminals, and voila saved a ton of cash and have a "marine grade" harness.
If not then IIWMB I'd do these steps to get away at least expense:
1 - replace the key sw. Do all sws if they are old.
2 - lose the gummy bear plug(s) - butt splice end together. (If you need more length to do that then do #3)
3 - refurb the wiring terminals (new short jumpers?) on the panel, if needed add longer pigtails to make it easy to pull the panel.
4 - refurb the engine end of the harness, new heat shrink terminals, substituting the ORG for the YEL/RED. Fuse the red power wire on the B solenoid terminal.
5 - Do the other alt out and alt ground, and battery neg cable (and other negatives) improvements posted previously
6. Substitute the ORG for the YEL wire (see *** below).
***Use the #10 ORG in place of the lighter gauge YEL. Put yellow heat shrink tubing on each end and add a red stripe w/ Sharpie(tm) to identify that. A different color isn't fatal, it's just that YEL/RED stripe is the standard for the starter solenoid circuit. Or mark the ORG w/ a label gun and cover w/ clear HST (Or do both!) Keep the yellow wire handy. The alarm circuit board on the back of the panel is prone to failure, no replacement. Then you can use the YEL to add a hi-temp switch on the engine thermostat housing. There's other ways to do that, but having the unused YEL wire just makes it easy.
I have posted before about "strongly" disagreeing with buying a substandard harness from CD, but that's YBYC. I feel the same about the CD panel. (can't do a thumbs down)
What size fuse should be on the red power wire? Would it also be a good idea to put two fuses on each wire coming from the I terminal as well? How much current would you think it would take to ruin that connection to the I terminal of the key switch?
I see nothing wrong with buying the wiring harness from Catalina Direct. It is good, properly sized, color-coded, tinned wire. Just use your own heat shrink ring terminals instead of their Euro connector strips and wire directly to panel and engine. Sure, you will end up paying a bit more for it than the sum of the parts, but for me it was way less hassel than searching out and buying various cut wires alone.
Quote from: ChrisW on February 10, 2019, 01:56:39 PM
What size fuse should be on the red power wire? Would it also be a good idea to put two fuses on each wire coming from the I terminal as well? How much current would you think it would take to ruin that connection to the I terminal of the key switch?
Chris, I have told peeps to use one step above the smallest that will not blow with everything on (blower, preheat, starter engaged) That depends on whether you get rid of the unnecessary glow plug relay and power the glow plugs directly (more amps.) No more than a 30a.
Unfortunately, I haven't taken a pic how to do/or the completed the fuse. Next time I WILL.
You basically need an M8 x #8 tinned starter lug, #10-12 butt connector, a #10 gauge tinned wire AGC fuse holder w/a weather cap. The hardest part is getting your hands on a crimper for a #8 lug.
The only things that pass thru the I terminal contacts are gauges, fuel pump, alt field excite and blower. All of those together won't burn the contacts if you use a GOOD switch. I don't know how many ways to say this -- be cautious of what you buy and from what source.
Chris : BAD news - In the #28 reply picture it looks to me like you still have (at least) one of the "Gummy Bear" trailer connectors. Look in Critical Updates and please change out that/those fire hazard connectors!!!
Good news - In picture 3 of reply #29 - you have the "dog house" Hi temp alarm. Changes analog movement of the temp needle to digital and sound a low buzzing sound!!
A few thoughts
Quote from: Ron Hill on February 10, 2019, 04:01:31 PM
Chris : BAD news - In the #28 reply picture it looks to me like you still have (at least) one of the "Gummy Bear" trailer connectors. Lokk in Updates and pleases change out that/those fire hazards!!!
Good news - In picture 3 of reply #29 - you have the "dog house" Hi temp alarm. Changes analog movement of the temp needle to digital and sound a low buzzing sound!!
A few thoughts
The high temp alarm I know works. It went off after I wasn't paying attention and the impeller died on me.
Quote from: Noah on February 10, 2019, 02:32:23 PM
I see nothing wrong with buying the wiring harness from Catalina Direct. It is good, properly sized, color-coded, tinned wire. Just use your own heat shrink ring terminals instead of their Euro connector strips and wire directly to panel and engine. Sure, you will end up paying a bit more for it than the sum of the parts, but for me it was way less hassel than searching out and buying various cut wires alone.
Noah, Don't get me wrong, buying wire from wherever, at whatever cost, is a personal decision.
Chris, in my brevity I didn't make my point well - CD markets a "harness" but it's
NOT a harness - it's an 18-foot hunk of copper. Very expensive copper at that. A bottom paint job is not the yard handing me a can of VC-17 and then needing to buy my own pan and roller. (IMO) CD should be honest about it, or sell a complete plug 'n play harness.
Noah,
For a comparison, I looked back and the last harness (just wire cost) was $66; CD is $148 (2-1/4 times more.) That's retail (not wholesale) cost. Additionally, that included these circuits:
- fuel gauge (not in CD)
- oil pressure gauge (not in CD)
- Hx, fuel tank and deck fill bond wires (not in CD)
- fuel tank sender negative wire (not in CD)
Also, that was 100% Ancor wire, not cheaper Pacer or whatever CD sells. So if owners want to pay 225% for convenience that's their biz, but then it's (IMO) kinda disingenuous if they complain about West Marine, etc., prices. CD does provide a valuable service to owners but (IMO) this is not one of those instances.
I do take a minor issue w/ CD being "correctly" sized, but if owners want to buy more than needed, again that's their decision. I call it "right-sizing" and CD doesn't "right size" its hunk of copper. (IMO) It's pointless to run 14 ga for gauges - they are not current carrying circuits.
The (IMO) correct harness for an M-25/XP is:
- #10 power, preheat (DON'T do the preheat mod,) and negative (actually only #14 is needed.)
- #14 fuel pump/alt excite, and tach signal.
- #16 temp gauge, oil switch, and temp switch.
I have used #8 for power/neutral for low V loss if an owner wants a high-current outlet in the cockpit (say for a halogen spotlight.)
Tinned marine wire is available with a couple clicks of the mouse -- the same place owners buy the terminals to add to the CD hunk of copper.
As far as CD's pre-fab panel, the fact is using Sta-Kon terminals on a marine panel is unconscionable, no less the euro strip CD uses (using it as intended is non-ABYC compliant.)
Quote from: ChrisW on February 10, 2019, 04:21:06 PM
The high temp alarm I know works. It went off after I wasn't paying attention and the impeller died on me.
Chris, understand that when that circuit board fails (those are prone to that) there's no way of knowing it (unless if you overheat and notice the gauge or the engine seizes.) The alarm that sounds with the key on (I hope it sounds) does not verify the temp alarm, only the low-oil-pressure alarm. Some have added a small push button to check the temp alarm.
When you replace your harness and want to add the hi-temp alarm, there's a whole lot cheaper way than CD's $270 cost.
The wire harness purchase was a personal cost/benefit equation that worked for me.
RE THEIR PANEL; TO CLARIFY:
I never suggested buying their panel, ONLY the replacement faceplate—which I did buy—but I also complained to them, and on this Forum, that I didn't appreciate their shameless advertising (logo and telephone #) branding on that faceplate. Unfortunately theirs is the only (semi) affordable faceplate option available that I knoW of.
I have reason to believe, but have not verified lately, that unbranded panels are still supplied by Dennis I.
At least they were a few yrs ago when he/I discussed options.
digarashi@earthlink.net
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 10, 2019, 08:24:11 PM
I have reason to believe, but have not verified lately, that unbranded panels are still supplied by Dennis I.
At least they were a few yrs ago when he/I discussed options.
digarashi@earthlink.net
Hey Chris I just remembered
MMES had "Catalina//Yachts" branded AC/DC panels (and plain as well) when I last spoke w/ Mark. I'm sure they can or have done CTY branded engine panels. I believe that they will also sell you just a face plate.
"Mark" at
www.wewireboats.com
Depending on what you decide w/your exist harness, if you do decide to keep it and want a fuse setup, I'll be glad to throw one into the mail n/c the next time I make one up. It's a pain cus you need a special crimper for the solenoid lug.
-k
Chris : To make sure that that circuit board Hi Temp alarm was worked here's what I did:
On the panel I mounted a momentary toggle switch which connected ground to sender on the Temperature Gage. This opened the circuit so the hi temp alarm went off. So I had a "press to test" that I could check the hi temp alarm!! Easy to do.
A thought
Just want to say thanks again to everybody for their help. There is a lot of good information here, and I have enough stuff to keep me busy for a while. I am a little bit unclear on a few things at the moment, but I'm sure if I reread all the information posted here I will find it or figure it out.
"Please do not hesitate to" ask for clarifications! We've got your back. :D
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 12, 2019, 05:25:15 PM
"Please do not hesitate to" ask for clarifications! We've got your back. :D
The key switch you recommended says it is rated for 10 amps run and 5 amps start. I don't have a DC ammeter that can handle over 10 amps. So I had an extra inline fuse holder and wired it into the power wire to the key switch. I put a 15 amp fuse in it. Turning the key to preheat blew the fuse in one second. You recommended putting in a 30 amp fuse, but can that key switch handle 30 amps?
I think I want to get rid of that engine mod you were talking about and power the glow plugs directly. I don't trust it. Do I just hook that grey wire that goes into the engine near where the fuel line goes in to the S terminal of the key switch?
Quote from: ChrisW on February 16, 2019, 04:39:37 PM
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 12, 2019, 05:25:15 PM
"Please do not hesitate to" ask for clarifications! We've got your back. :D
The key switch you recommended says it is rated for 10 amps run and 5 amps start. I don't have a DC ammeter that can handle over 10 amps. So I had an extra inline fuse holder and wired it into the power wire to the key switch. I put a 15 amp fuse in it. Turning the key to preheat blew the fuse in one second. You recommended putting in a 30 amp fuse, but can that key switch handle 30 amps?
I think I want to get rid of that engine mod you were talking about and power the glow plugs directly. I don't trust it. Do I just hook that grey wire that goes into the engine near where the fuel line goes in to the S terminal of the key switch?
Chris you ID'd one of the issues with the way CTY had Seaward configure some panels. My M-25 panel is key off-->ON-->start (low amps) and preheat (higher amps) is a push-button. Some M-25/XP panels were key off-->on, and PB preheat and PB start. But, per Seaward, it changed the configuration over years because owners complained about start sequences -- took two hands instead of one. I don't gettit, but that's why there are different configurations.
There's PB sws rated for 35 amps, but not a key sw that high. That said, the start position is start+ignition. so 10+5=15a.
rated. The glow plugs draw 6a x 3 = 18 amps (give or take.) You might want to use the plastic case CH #850 sw, rated 15+5=20a in the start position.
All that said, the preheat relay mod should draw low amps and *should** not blow a 15a fuse. I'm guessing maybe 2-3a for the coil on that relay? So if you are pulling 15+, there's something wrong, either in the relay itself or in the wiring.
Yes. To power the preheat w/o the relay, the white #10 wire goes directly to the #3 glow plug. Besides being simpler, KISS, that way is a little easier on your glow plugs so they last longer (slightly less voltage than 13-14v direct from the battery.) The "downside" (if you consider it one) is that longer preheat time (+10-15 seconds) is needed.
Chris
I found specs on the seadog switches and, interestingly, it's claimed to be 15a ignition and 30a ignition/start. I never thought of seadog as the gold standard, as Cole Hersee is, but.....
When you replaced your switch did the gauges work, or was there an issue from the get-go? I wonder if the rating on the CH may be conservative or if the seadog overstated?
Manufacturers play all sorts of games (figures lie and liars figure.) So I also wonder if the stated ratings are "contact make", "contact break" or "contact made" ..... we know it ought to be the lowest one, but........
If you use a "magneto" type ignition switch the I and S are not tied together, so when preheating ('start) the only current thru the contacts is the glow plugs (other loads are disconnected until the key goes back to the 'run' position.) Both SD and CH should have that type.
ChrisW : You need to look in Critical Updates, WiKi & Mainsheet tech notes --- LOOK FOR Glow Plug Solenoid upgrade.
That way all the Hi amps needed to heat the glow plugs stay down at the engine and do not flow to the key switch thru its marginally sized wiring!!
Great articles in those Mainsheet tech notes in WiKi and Critical Upgrades!!!
A few thoughts
Quote from: KWKloeber on February 17, 2019, 10:54:28 AM
Chris
I found specs on the seadog switches and, interestingly, it's claimed to be 15a ignition and 30a ignition/start. I never thought of seadog as the gold standard, as Cole Hersee is, but.....
When you replaced your switch did the gauges work, or was there an issue from the get-go? I wonder if the rating on the CH may be conservative or if the seadog overstated?
Manufacturers play all sorts of games (figures lie and liars figure.) So I also wonder if the stated ratings are "contact make", "contact break" or "contact made" ..... we know it ought to be the lowest one, but........
If you use a "magneto" type ignition switch the I and S are not tied together, so when preheating ('start) the only current thru the contacts is the glow plugs (other loads are disconnected until the key goes back to the 'run' position.) Both SD and CH should have that type.
Yes, after replacing the switch the gauges do work. I wonder if the problem could have just been corrosion in the key switch? I will admit that I probably did not seal the panel well when I replaced the switch about six months ago. In fact, I did not use any sealant, just screwed the panel back in. I know better now.
I verified that the key switch is already hooked up directly to glow plugs. That relay box is actually hooked up to the engine start button. I wonder why that is. It's also burned out where the connection for the wire to the alternator is. I don't know if I should replace it or not.
Also, I have an ammeter now and I measured the current for the glow plugs. It was 30 amps (for 3 glow plugs). Is that normal?
[edit follows]
What wire is burned? Pictures please!
PS, I am in the minority but consistently recommend against the preheat relay/solenoid mod. It's unnecessary. It also adds several potential failures points that are not a good idea to add when the only reason to install it is to "save" 10-15 seconds of preheat time (and then sit at the dock for 10 minutes for the engine to warm up, readying lines, chilling the beer, etc.) Buy a powerboat if 15 seconds is critical.
My OEM panel is:
HD (25 amp) PB switch --> preheat
Key --> start
Chis
Some owners installed a relay (or solenoid switch) to energize the starter solenoid directly, rather than thru the key switch. It is uncommon but not unheard of. The reason is that the original harnesses had an undersized "S wire" that energizes the starter solenoid. A work or sticky solenoid, low battery voltage, excessive loss in the"S" circuit and you can see why there could be an issue getting the solenoid to pull in. The "S" wire should be 10 gauge and all the connections/terminals in good shape -- then there isn't a need for that relay (which adds complexity and additional failure points. i.e., KISS is better.)
The OEM glowplugs are listed at 6 amp each.
Are you saying that you have an ammeter on the panel (it *must* go)?
Or you used a V-O-M to measure the preheat amp draw?
I would look for a partial short somewhere in the circuit (chafed insulation?) that could be drawing excessive amps when turning the key switch. And check for a short to ground (it could be intermittent). Possibly there's a bad (shorted) glow plug check them individually -- the resistance thru each one should be about equal.
-k
What's a VOM? I used a clamp on meter that I bought recently; no ammeter on panel.
I decided to take out all the wires and redo everything (except for the cables to and from the battery). I bought the wire each individually instead of the harness from CD. With shipping it was about $75. So if there is a short somewhere I am not worried about it, as it will all be replaced. And I don't need the relay any more I guess since I have #10 yellow wire for starter.
I'll check the glow plugs. I don't know how to remove them but I'm sure I can find out how with a google search.
Thanks
muliti meter, volt-ohm-meter
Clamp-ons are a little plus/minus for lower amps, in-line ammeter is the most accurate (checking one at a time.)
You don't need to remove the GPs, remove the wire and test the resistance (terminal to engine block) or the amp draw of each one separately.
If you need to replace any, do the set - they are cheap enough aftermarket (not westerbeke prices)
Use FTZ brand terminals on your new harness.
Quote from: ChrisW on March 05, 2019, 11:37:56 AM
And I don't need the relay any more I guess since I have #10 yellow wire for starter.
Colors matter and a yellow wire signifies DC negative. What you should have is a yellow wire with a red tracer.
Chris
per the ABYC coding that Rod caught I'm unsure if I mentioned b4 to use a permanent red marker to run a stripe down the S Wire (fancy CD spiral not needed.)
You can also clear heat shrink tubing at each end so the stripe stays put, and/or put a label on it and clear HST. Obviously it's the gold standard to take the time to label/HST them all.
You may have discovered (or not) that 10 ga ignition wire is about impossible to find except by special bulk order. 14 is readily avail but not 10.
Also there's other options but I like this stuff cuz it's very slippery when pulling the new assembly:
http://amazon.com/Expandable-Braided-Sleeving-Polyester-Retardant/dp/B01ETWAW70
Need to melt and zip-tie the ends otherwise they'll badly ravel.
Did you locate a tinned 10 gauge atc fuse holder for the power - if not I'll send you one.
The S wire goes onto what I call the (heat vibrate stretch corrode and) quick-fall-off terminal. I have a couple different fixes for that if interested, but ybyc on how you handle that circuit.
Will you run an extra (#16 brown) wire for a future hi temp switch?
I ran a #16 dkblue for my belt/suspenders oil pressure gauge. Can't ever have too many spare conductors when running new cables :D. I even ran one to add a sw to temporarily silence the depth alarm (gauge isn't mounted @ the helm.)
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 06, 2019, 09:46:43 AM
You may have discovered (or not) that 10 ga ignition wire is about impossible to find except by special bulk order. 14 is readily avail but not 10.
I have a spool of 10GA yellow w/red stripe here (if I can find it shop is a disaster zone). If anyone needs some just let me know...
Just looking over this subject again and noticed the last reply I made over a week ago is not showing up. Not sure why.
I did use a permanent marker to put a red streak on the yellow wire and did find an inline fuse holder. I did the rewiring and everything seems to be working OK. The engine starts, gauges work, and the alternator works.
But, I haven't fused the battery wire yet because I am still getting 30 amps for preheat. I did not check each glow plug individually because I ran out of time but I did remove one glow plug and I got 20 amps. The one I removed was the one furthest from where the wire enters the set. Now it is possible that one of the remaining glow plugs is using 6 amps and the other one is 14, but to me it looks like they are all probably using 10 amps each. Maybe the glow plugs aren't the original. I am going to check each glow plug individually to be sure, but it looks like I need to do one of the following A) get new lower amp glow plugs, B) get a bigger fuse, or C) install a solenoid for the glow plugs.
I said below no need to remove plugs.
Loosen the thumbscrew in each w/a thin tip screwdriver, remove the common wire.
Measure and record the resistance from each tip to the engine block to see if any are shorted or drawing more than spec.
OEM glow plugs are cheap. Inexpensive insurance.
Sorry, when I said I removed glow plugs I didn't mean that I removed the actual glow plug from the engine, just removed it from the circuit by disconnecting the wire on top. Yes, I understand what you mean now and will try that.
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 19, 2019, 04:15:57 PM
I said below no need to remove plugs.
Loosen the thumbscrew in each w/a thin tip screwdriver, remove the common wire.
Measure and record the resistance from each tip to the engine block to see if any are shorted or drawing more than spec.
OEM glow plugs are cheap. Inexpensive insurance.
For each glow plug, doing the above, I measured 1 ohm. To me that's not great, but I'm no electrician.
Also I lost lost one of those thumbscrews. Whoever designed this engine had tiny hands and delicate little fingers or is a sadist. Can I buy replacements for those?
Chris
ok that's a problem. Unsure how accurate your meter is, but....
1 ohm is why you're blowing a fuse.
The spec is 1.6 ohms (+/-) cold.
You probably get ~11 volts at the plug so 11/1.6=6.8 x 3 = 20.4 amp.
That's per Kubota's shop manual, not per NGK. I'm not sure that I have ever seen a resistance spec from the plug mfgr. The Universal wiring schematic says 6a each.
I don't recall (~15 yrs ago) but I'm sure my new plugs probably came complete (maybe w/ a hex nut.)
If you stop by a diesel shop they probably have a few nuts laying in a trash basket, or get an M4 metric nut at the hardware store.
A new set (NGK Y-103V) is 15 bucks at Rock Auto. Don't effaround w/ them.
I will repeat myself deja vous all over again - you DON'T want to ('er, I mean shouldn't) install that dumb relay or worse, a starting solenoid. NGK Y-103V are 10.5v glow plugs. Not meant to have 12v 0r 13.5v or maybe 14+ v (if your shore charger is on) applied to them. Wire resistance to the panel and back is a GOOD thing.
Or "save" 10 seconds preheating, and add 3 more unnecessary connections and a relay that can fail, to the starting circuit. I haven't heard (read from) anyone who can defend installing that damn thing, other than they can let go of the button 10 seconds sooner. If you do install a relay, get a socket side that can be mounted, and the relay itself a plug-in that isn't mounted (so you can quickly pop it out/in if it burns out.)
-k
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 19, 2019, 08:47:40 PM
Chris
ok that's a problem. Unsure how accurate your meter is, but....
1 ohm is why you're blowing a fuse.
The spec is 1.6 ohms (+/-) cold.
You probably get ~11 volts at the plug so 11/1.6=6.8 x 3 = 20.4 amp.
That's per Kubota's shop manual, not per NGK. I'm not sure that I have ever seen a resistance spec from the plug mfgr. The Universal wiring schematic says 6a each.
I don't recall (~15 yrs ago) but I'm sure my new plugs probably came complete (maybe w/ a hex nut.)
If you stop by a diesel shop they probably have a few nuts laying in a trash basket, or get an M4 metric nut at the hardware store.
A new set (NGK Y-103V) is 15 bucks at Rock Auto. Don't effaround w/ them.
I will repeat myself deja vous all over again - you DON'T want to ('er, I mean shouldn't) install that dumb relay or worse, a starting solenoid. NGK Y-103V are 10.5v glow plugs. Not meant to have 12v 0r 13.5v or maybe 14+ v (if your shore charger is on) applied to them. Wire resistance to the panel and back is a GOOD thing.
Or "save" 10 seconds preheating, and add 3 more unnecessary connections and a relay that can fail, to the starting circuit. I haven't heard (read from) anyone who can defend installing that damn thing, other than they can let go of the button 10 seconds sooner. If you do install a relay, get a socket side that can be mounted, and the relay itself a plug-in that isn't mounted (so you can quickly pop it out/in if it burns out.)
-k
I got the glow plugs in the mail yesterday. Part number "NGK 2031". It has "Y-103V" on the box. I tested the resistance of one of them with three different multi-meters and am getting about 1 ohm.
I don't know if I should take the time to install them in the engine to see what happens or not.
I see in the engine manual the 30 amp fuse, just like you said, so I don't understand. If the volts are only 10.5 with 1ohm, with 3 glow plugs shouldn't that be 31.5 amps? And like you said, it could be more since the voltage drop probably isn't enough to bring it down to 10.5V.
What do you think?
Chris,
As I said the spec is 1.6 ohms (+/-) cold.
Maybe NGK has changed their plugs????
Try a 35a fuse. ANY fuse is better than no fuse - it's not so much that you're going to melt the cable, it's in case there's a short and even a 40a will pop in that case.
W/ the preheat circuit with terminals, switch, etc is probably like 1/10 ohm. Test it and see how close my guess is?
-k
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 29, 2019, 08:33:42 PM
Chris,
As I said the spec is 1.6 ohms (+/-) cold.
Maybe NGK has changed their plugs????
Try a 35a fuse. ANY fuse is better than no fuse - it's not so much that you're going to melt the cable, it's in case there's a short and even a 40a will pop in that case.
W/ the preheat circuit with terminals, switch, etc is probably like 1/10 ohm. Test it and see how close my guess is?
-k
I installed one of the new glow plugs, disconnected the power to the other two and turned the preheat on. I measured about 11 amps. I think what I will do is just use a bigger fuse.
Thanks so much for the help.