Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: Bill Shreeves on January 28, 2019, 07:17:38 PM

Title: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Bill Shreeves on January 28, 2019, 07:17:38 PM
The fuel shutoff in my '87 34 has a "T" handle and is located to the right of the Admiral gauge panel in the port coaming.  See attached pic.  Jib sheets etc. often get caught on it and its a PITA.  The cable has failed and I'm planning on going with a knob and moving it lower between the aft and port seats.  I'd appreciate input from others if they too experienced this problem and have resolved it.

-Thanks
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: KWKloeber on January 28, 2019, 08:42:06 PM
Bill

IIWMB I'd go with a shallow knob first — that may do it.
Drill/patch holes if it's still a pita.

-k
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: scgunner on January 29, 2019, 08:35:26 AM
    Bill,

      I don't think anyone would have experienced the same problem because that doesn't look like a stock instrument panel, at least I hope it's not. My boat is an '87 and isn't that far from yours(#0273)and came with a recessed instrument panel that encompasses all gauges and switches. It looks like you have the room to build and install a recessed box to mount the kill switch.
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Bill Shreeves on January 29, 2019, 10:20:15 AM
Quote from: scgunner on January 29, 2019, 08:35:26 AM
    Bill,

      I don't think anyone would have experienced the same problem because that doesn't look like a stock instrument panel, at least I hope it's not. My boat is an '87 and isn't that far from yours(#0273)and came with a recessed instrument panel that encompasses all gauges and switches. It looks like you have the room to build and install a recessed box to mount the kill switch.

Kevin,
Good info.  My boat was re-powered in 2005, long before I bought her, and I was pretty sure the PO also installed Westerbeke\Universal Admiral panel at that time.  It's mounted on a large piece of textured starboard that covers a good sized rectangular hole in the coaming.  So, I have no idea what it looked like previously and sounds like was originally recessed.  Just out of curiosity, any chance you could share a pic of what yours looks like? As you said, ours builds aren't that far apart and a good chance yours is what mine originally looked like.

Thanks,
-Bill

Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Dave Spencer on January 29, 2019, 11:03:39 AM
Bill,
My boat is a later model but here is a pic of my instrument panel.  There is a transparent  cover over the instruments with access at the bottom for the key, the start button and engine shutdown T-handle.  As scgunner pointed out, there is almost certainly room behind your panel to recess it if you wish but this would be a non-trivial project... certainly doable but possibly more than you'd like to take on at this time.  The T-handle as it's installed in your boat does look like it's begging to snag lines or clothing.  Ken's thought to replace it with a smaller, maybe spherical handle sounds like a good and simple approach that would reduce but not totally eliminate snags. 
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Stu Jackson on January 29, 2019, 11:05:01 AM
Bill,

Cockpit panel photo
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: KWKloeber on January 29, 2019, 02:00:48 PM
Quote from: Bill Shreeves on January 29, 2019, 10:20:15 AM

Westerbeke\Universal Admiral panel at that time.  It's mounted on a large piece of textured starboard that covers a good sized rectangular hole. 


Bill

No doubt jackleg marine installed a very nautical looking panel (covering the (whole) hole as it were) from the removed so-called "panel tray."

AFAIK, the fiberglass panel trays (at least on the 30s) were simply gooped in, not fiberglassed in place -- so removal was relatively harmless to the coming.  Knowing "how you are" (and your attic :D ) you could install a panel tray and recess the whole westerbeke shebang / stop cable handle. There were different trays made for different panels/years (my 84 tray doesn't have a flat for the cable; it exits through the panel itself (pic.)  Which is a PITA -- it's possible for a well-meaning behemoth "assistant" (I mean guest) to forcibly extract the screws from the thin lip of the tray that the panel sits against (Don't ask.)  Hey, if 1 lb force is good, 100 must be better.

CTY parts (at least used to?) fabricate trays in-house (the molds were shipped to Fl) and would make it to size (less than the CD $$.)  I know this because in 2011 I asked for a price on a new tray and had to supply exact dimensions and a pic.  I wanted one with the full back intact (pic) to retard moisture/dirt/critters from taking up residence -- mine had the back hacked out by the precision factory techs (who also supplied a selfie.)  Well, the next week I got an email that my new tray was ready to ship (which of course I was only enquiring about because I was contemplating enlarging my panel for another gauge.)  AnyHEW, if you are interested I can dig out the info on the trays.  Maybe they can make one that has a full front on which you can mount the smaller Wb panel yet cover the whole (hole).

cheers
-k

Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Bill Shreeves on January 29, 2019, 03:10:23 PM
Great info guys and thanks for sharing all the pics.  Its all very helpful, as always, when asking a question on this site!   I really like the recessed panel and wonder why the PO changed it.  Frankly, a question I often ask is "why did the PO do that?"

Anyway, I think I'll take a few measurements this weekend and look in to the possibility of recessing, as Ken says, the whole shebang.  Fortunately, all the holes for the panel, the fuel gauge and the fuel shutoff are in the starboard panel.

Any more thoughts or pics are greatly appreciated!
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: KWKloeber on January 29, 2019, 03:42:54 PM
<<why>>

The Admiral panel being odd-shaped and not fitting the pre-existing recess in the panel tray (for the Seaward panel) the PO, rather than simply refurbing/reusing the Seaward panel (as Ron did) or doing it correctly, PO jacklegged it up using the easier, and I might add, much more nautical-looking method!  "PO could have," but noooooooo!

-k
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Stu Jackson on January 29, 2019, 04:32:18 PM
Quote from: Bill Shreeves on January 29, 2019, 03:10:23 PM>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Any more thoughts or pics are greatly appreciated!

Bill,

A recent 2017 tech note that I did has more pictures and a detailed discussion of how it works:

http://c34.org/Ignition-Key-Switch-Replacement/
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Noah on January 29, 2019, 06:20:15 PM
My 1990 panel with a Catalina Direct faceplace, (annoyingly branded by them).
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: KWKloeber on January 30, 2019, 08:18:13 AM
Bill

Just had another thought - a few years ago I got a quote from a Wb dealer for the stop solenoid and its bracket that fits on the D850 block.  I think it was ~90.
I contemplated adding a push button and trashing the cable when I re-do my panel.  Some other applications for Kubota engines have solenoids instead of a cable and the marine/industrial dealer was able to supply one to fit, maybe an option for the XPB block also?

-k
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Stu Jackson on January 30, 2019, 01:47:34 PM
Bill, before you even consider a solenoid, envision first how it will work.  The M25 and M25XP engines stop function is mechanical.  The cable pulls a lever on the starboard forward top side of the engine which shuts off the fuel to the injectors.  One would have to know how the solenoid would work, since the shutoff on those engines is not electrical/electronic, as it is on some Yanmar engines.  I do not know how it is done on the M25XPB engines, although I would imagine (i.e., guess :D) that it is similar.  Good luck searching for alternatives. 
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: KWKloeber on January 30, 2019, 04:59:51 PM
Bill, I should have been more explicit ... the solenoid I referred to for my M25 is OEM Kubota; used on many non-marine applications. 
The OEM solenoid does operate the mechanical stop lever that Stu described.

Below is my pic of one on a Bobcat w/a V1200 block (e.g., M-35.) 
A solenoid was also used on some non-marine D850/950 (e.g., M-25/XP) applications as well.

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/crl9zVvbuq0/maxresdefault.jpg)

There's pros and cons to a stop solenoid, but it's OEM Kubota for our blocks.

My Kubota manual shows there's two OEM solenoids for the "B" engines.  One operates the stop lever, the other (appears to) operate the fuel rail directly?
I haven't seen a pic of them installed so the above/below is not "gospel."

(https://www.messicks.com/services/imageview.ashx?seq=0&ven=&img=&id=17961&w=400)

(https://www.messicks.com/services/imageview.ashx?seq=0&ven=&img=&id=38902&w=400)

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRoayu4x5PoO5nLXruGenM0l4pGk_lnlLuxR3xmVaCDRan2XAbHbYUcwLfq)

A buddy was going to install one on his XPB but sold the boat (and moved to HI!! 8) )

-k
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Bill Shreeves on January 30, 2019, 06:12:10 PM
I have to admit that the possibility of a solenoid instead of the cable is really intriguing.  Knowing I've never really been fond of pulling a cable to stop the engine coupled with a final cost not being a tremendous amount more than a good Teleflex cable makes it even more enticing.

That said, I also can't help think that a cable is very reliable and if it fails as mine has a quick trip below with a pair of pliers easily shuts it down.   So, I'm thinking the KISS principle might be the better approach for me on this one and I'll likely stay with a cable.  I'm definitely going to look further at recessing the panel which would also help keep it out of harms way.

As always Ken, we can count on you to bring great suggestions, information and thinking outside the box.  Just look at the pics and the exploded ISO, damn!  Thanks again and keep it coming!

Stu - great tech notes and pics, thanks
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Noah on January 30, 2019, 06:53:54 PM
A story- Even with my "protected panel", a month or so ago, while under sail, an errant foot or sliding cockpit seat cushion resulted in my ignition key being broken off flush with the switch. This I noticed when going to start the engine for docking. Granted, I had an unheeded warning, months ago when key #1 of the 2 cheap keys that came with the retro switch bent and became worthless on a previous outing. I replaced that key with a stronger one, that was tough to source, but found at a local Ace hardware store. Unfortunately, that spare one was in the chart table not the ignition when key 2 broke off. After a bit of "what now" panic, I managed to push in the broken key stub into the ignition with the broken piece still in the switch and turned with friction against it and managed to start the engine. The next day I after trying a bunch of picking tools to no avail, I suceeded in removing the key stub by epoxing the broken piece to it and gently exacted the stuck end nub of key. I learned my lesson and now remove the key after shutting off engine while under sail.
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Bill Shreeves on January 30, 2019, 07:04:47 PM
Noah - Your story gives me one reason to appreciate my panel that currently has the key very well protected.  I think the fairly thin chain would snap before the key broke if the float was pulled too hard
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Noah on January 30, 2019, 07:08:45 PM
Bill-  8) however, I would be worried about your toggle switch hanging out there.
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Bill Shreeves on January 30, 2019, 07:29:21 PM
Quote from: Noah on January 30, 2019, 07:08:45 PM
Bill-  8) however, I would be worried about your toggle switch hanging out there.

Absolutely right about that one.   It's for the blower and it busted early last season. It'll work if i jiggle it enough and needs replacement this off-season.  Whoever located the items on the board gave no thought to it.  I'll refrain from sharing my usual exclamation when something gets caught on the toggle or the "T" handle.  I definitely need to change it.

Of course, this brings to mind another question.  I still consider myself a newbie or greenhorn knowing I only have 3 seasons under my belt.   So, how many of you actually use the blower after refueling?

-Thanks
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: KWKloeber on January 30, 2019, 07:55:10 PM
Bill

I'm not trying to bias your thought waves, just passing fact based info.  Since you got into the weeds a little, a failure was also one of my concerns.  That said, with the 2nd type, the stop lever is still open and operational (without a pliers.)  In my case, the lever is VERY accessible thru the side engine door.  I believe that type to be "free-floating" -- that is to mean that there's no heavy return spring to zero, so if the coil failed I could still flip the stop lever.  I will corroborate that w/ a dealer before (IF I decide to) installing it.

Noah:  I introduced one of my keys to my bench grinder and gave it a haircut so that it doesn't protrude past the plexiglas cover.

Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: KWKloeber on January 30, 2019, 08:24:08 PM
Bill

If you are defo pursuing recessing, here's some more info,

Wb has (had?) a recessed version, below - maybe that will give you an idea.

(https://www.westerbeke.com/assets/partbooks/034/034_elect5.gif)

Below are pix from a panel refurb on a CS36; you can see how CS handled the recess (in the end of the stbd seat) for the Wb panel. 
I could foresee you foreseeing strips of G10, epoxied behind the coming to form a recessed lip around the hole, to mount your Wb panel onto -- the G10 and exposed edge of the coming could be gel-coated or painted. 

If the (whole) hole is excessively large, it might need a solid panel across the back (G10? aluminum?) to mount your panel thru.

Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Noah on January 30, 2019, 08:28:45 PM
Bill- maybe overkill but I use the blower when motoring most of the time. Keeps air space and cabin cooler and moves some air. Doesn't cost anything.

Ken- good thought on cutting key head. The new keys I had made at Ace are much thicker/stronger than the ones that came with my CD replacement switch (which may be a knock-off Cole Hersey or Sea Dog(?) can't remember if it was branded. I just remove and pocket the key now.
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: KWKloeber on January 30, 2019, 09:16:25 PM
Quote from: Noah on January 30, 2019, 08:28:45 PM

I just remove and pocket the key now.


I used to, but the concern is anticipating a Murphy visit.
If I go overboard :shock: I want it to be right there in the panel :thumb: not in my pocket on a float :cry4`
The deheaded key is adding one more little drip into my safety bucket.

Jus sayin'




The J/120 I am sometimes on has a plexi with a hole large enough to stuff in the key/float, or in the shower door right underneath (plexi broken on this sister pic.) Neat/clean.
(something Bill could build in!)
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Noah on January 30, 2019, 10:03:43 PM
My or my crew's back-up is a second key in the chart table.
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Stu Jackson on January 31, 2019, 09:15:29 AM
We replaced the mini-chain between the key and the float with a small thin line, almost like flag halyard line.  Those mini-chains belong nowhere near a boat; other examples are the fuel, water and waste deck caps.  We take the key out when the engine stops and use the line to hang the key on the kill switch handle, it's right there.

From my 2017 Tech Note on replacing the key switch:

I went to the hardware store and got two additional replacement keys. Based on reports from other skippers and our own experiences, we've found the brass keys tend to get bent due to their location in the panel, so I got replacement keys made while the new ones were still straight. The replacement keys are silver, similar to our companionway and locker locks, so I painted them for identification.
Title: Re: Move Fuel Shut Off
Post by: Noah on January 31, 2019, 09:53:16 AM
 :thumb: