Catalina 34

General Activities => Main Message Board => Topic started by: kh3412 on October 26, 2018, 11:16:34 AM

Title: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on October 26, 2018, 11:16:34 AM
Well the next winter project is here. A little something I picked up at the boat show.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Ron Hill on October 26, 2018, 03:01:26 PM
kh34 : Depending on which engine you have and which transmission it is - is directly proportional to how difficult your winter project is!!!!

A Big Thought
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on October 26, 2018, 05:06:04 PM
Ron that's not nice ruining my day. How hard could it be to pull the engine, take the bellhousing off, disconnect the transmission. Then find the motor stringers are wet, the motor mounts are worn, the prop shaft has a groove by the seal, what could go wrong. Oh yeah I forgot about getting grease all over the Admirals galley.
It looks like it will be a big project, but it is a long winter and will make me trust taking the boat out of the dock without hitting my dockmates.
With this site and all the help that has gone down this path already it WILL be ok. (I Hope)

But feel free to Rain on My Parade I got a new transmission today.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Jim Hardesty on October 27, 2018, 05:41:46 AM
Quote
How hard could it be to pull the engine, take the bellhousing off, disconnect the transmission. Then find the motor stringers are wet, the motor mounts are worn, the prop shaft has a groove by the seal, what could go wrong


Kudos on you excellent attitude. 
Jim
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Phil Spicer on October 27, 2018, 05:55:39 AM
I’m still at Deep Water if you ever need an extra hand.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Stu Jackson on October 27, 2018, 10:56:03 AM
Congratulations on your "find."  You most like have an M25XP in your boat.  Care to share the make and model number of your new "toy?"

All the best during your installation.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Ron Hill on October 27, 2018, 01:11:52 PM
kh34 : I'm not trying to "rain on anybody's parade".  I would point out that if you mentioned your Hull # or your engine model and the transmission model - the readers of this message board could give you some tips!! 
You mentioned some of the things that you will run into.  Just mentioning that you have to remove the "Bell housing"  tells me that you probably have an M25 or a M25XP engine?? 
I might add to your list of things - that if your new transmission is a ZF 10 (Hurth 100) you are going to have to shorten your drive shaft.  You might also want a new damper plate and with the engine removed you might also consider some new sound insolation.
 
I hope you read some of my Mainsheet articles, as I removed the old engine twice for repair and then removed it for a M25XPB replacement.

A few thoughts
 
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Bill Shreeves on October 27, 2018, 02:39:57 PM
Congrats!  Nothing like new equipment.  I replaced my ZF5 with a ZF10 Spring of 2017 on my '87 C34.  Make sure you compare the new gearbox length and shaft offset to know what you might be up against regarding the geometry.  BTW, I didn't need to remove the engine or the bell housing.  Be sure to replace your damper plate while in there.  Its removable with the bell housing in place.  Still have the ZF5 in my basement of anyone else is interested, needs a rebuild....
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on October 27, 2018, 04:28:58 PM
Ok
First, Ron take no offense at my warped sense of humor.
Second, yes I have a M25XP
Third, boat is a 1988 hull#618
Forth, the new trans is a TwinDisc TMC 40p, 2.00-1 ratio the ratio was picked by working from the prop back so the ratio fits the prop to desired engine speed, with an eye to boat weight.
Fifth, new damper plate is in the box as well as a flex coupler who's name I can't recall at this time.
Finally, I appreciate all the knowledge from this site. This is the greatest asset in having a c34

Just got back from tenting it up for the winter not sure if I will start this year or wait for spring.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on April 07, 2019, 06:00:32 PM
Well the weather is getting better so I started the process of replacing the transmission. Pulled the floor out of the galley so I would have someplace to set the motor. Disconnected hoses and wires removed exhaust and cables. Set a beam across the companionway and pulled the motor forward into the galley. Shaft was already disconnected so as to size for replacement. Removed bell housing from engine, transmission from bell housing and used bell housing with new transmission to fit where I would need to trim engine stringer. Had to trim about 3/4 of an inch about 3 inch from rear port stringer.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Bobg on April 08, 2019, 06:58:41 AM
Going to love following your project, Just curious, but why did you feel like you had to change your transmission, was it slipping? or clunking or leaking?
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on April 08, 2019, 08:34:20 AM
The reason was:
1. Peace of mind. The hurth transmission has a history of failure
2. Starting to slip in forward
3. Unknown hours or maintenance on this unit.
4. The price vs repair favored the twin disk, and we use twin disk PTO's at work and have few problems.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: pablosgirl on April 12, 2019, 04:55:22 PM
KH3412,
I have an 88 with the M25XP also, where did you buy the flex plate from?  I have a noisy output shaft bearing and this is in my future.  I suspect when the PO had the cutlass bearing replaced that they used a slide hammer to take the prop and shaft out and hence damaged the bearing.  No slippage in forward though just a little noisy.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on April 12, 2019, 05:31:29 PM
The flex plate came from beta marine Stanley over there is super to work with. Don't have a number as it all came together with tranny and flexible coupling.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on April 12, 2019, 06:13:17 PM
Cleaned up the bell housing and drilled a new hole for the Port rear motor mount. This is the mount that is right by the shifter and cut out I made in the engine support stringer. As my supports are narrow and the outside holes on the bell housing are to far out I added a hole in between them. This still put the mount over the center part of the support but moves it forward a few inches. Also started working through the shift linkage. The linkage will be pointing down so as the shifter on the pedestal operates as it has in the past. Did not want to go through a learning curve over which way a move the lever to go forward or reverse.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on April 16, 2019, 04:31:57 PM
Update on the work. Cleaned the engine compartment, Glassed the area that was cut for clearance of the relocated shifter. Started Insulating engine compartment with 1" insulation. Removed the small pieces of wood that hold the steps and added some epoxy behind to help tighten up them up. Had to stop the insulation due to the wood on the port side being rotted. So waiting for some teak to arrive. Made a bracket for the shift cable and will get it to the boat to make sure it will fit.
Has anybody replaced their strut, and have any hints? Thinking i should consider this as it is looking rather poor.   
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Jon W on April 16, 2019, 04:46:11 PM
If you’re asking about the prop strut, Noah recently replaced his.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on April 16, 2019, 04:55:07 PM
Thanks Jon that's it.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Noah on April 16, 2019, 05:13:12 PM
Yep, I (with boatyard experts) did it in Oct. Not a project to be taken lightly. I would avoid it unless absolutely warranted.  Big/expensive; grinding, cutting, fiberglassing job. PM or email me and we can discuss details. “Someday” I will do a tech wiki write-up with pics.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on April 16, 2019, 05:46:22 PM
Very nice.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Breakin Away on April 16, 2019, 06:59:38 PM
Thanks for posting these pics! Your timing is perfect. I sent a link to my boatyard to see an example of how it's done with the Catalina strut.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Noah on April 16, 2019, 07:06:13 PM
PM or email me if you need more info/pics/video/etc. Good luck. There also also a factory spec. pdf doc. sheet/install drawing instructions on the CD website, I believe. BTW- mine was installed with micro balloons and vinyl ester resin. Not epoxy resin.
-Noah
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Breakin Away on April 16, 2019, 07:11:36 PM
PM on the way.

I also sent my boatyard a link to the CatalinaDirect website, and mentioned the downloadable instructions that are contained there. I'll forward any other info that you have as well. Thanks!
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: KWKloeber on April 17, 2019, 06:18:35 AM
Noah

Really nice work. Are you really positive about the adoption thing?  It’s only a 30-footer after all.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Roc on April 18, 2019, 10:02:03 AM
Noah
How were they sure the strut installation was aligned perfectly, and not skewed?  Boat's on the hard and the hull is flexed.  Just curious.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Noah on April 18, 2019, 10:51:25 AM
Measure, eyeball, align centered so shaft is centered in stern tube. Then fingers crossed. My hull was not deformed. Had to slightly adjust/lower front motor mounts when all said and done but it was almost 100% spot on.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Stu Jackson on April 18, 2019, 11:26:07 AM
Noah
How were they sure the strut installation was aligned perfectly, and not skewed?  Boat's on the hard and the hull is flexed.  Just curious.

A not unreasonable expectation.

However, it appears to me that the folks who do this work for as living would know a lot better than us average DIY-ers just how to do so. 

The strut is in very close proximity to the stern tube, so hull flex could well be "similar" in that particular area.  Certainly close enough to not have a material effect on lining the two up properly.  And the strut is made specifically for this boat.

We must also remember that there are tolerances and clearances for these alignments, even between the strut, the cutlass bearing and stern tube.

Probably just a longer-winded way of saying what Noah did!  :D
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on May 07, 2019, 05:23:40 PM
Little update :(
Decided to replace my strut, it was getting very thin on the bottom and pitting very much, but the deciding factor was a small drip coming down it.
As you know there is a small bilge under the rear water tank that has no way to drain. This area is right behind the area that the strut is mounted.
since I was on the fence as to replacing the strut this pushed me over. I had to find this leak incase it was something serious. I cut out the strut and
removed the filler against hull in front of this rear bilge on the outside and water would seep out of that area. Did not see any missing or broken
fiberglass, in fact the gel coat is still there in most places. From inside with the sun out the area looks a little thin in the layup as the area was letting
a lot of light through. the repair I am thinking would be lay up additional glass in the bilge and then fill it up with epoxy foam then glass over the whole area to prevent
water from sitting there.So since I have just received a new rear water tank thanks to this board's for sale area I started the take the tank out.
You need to remove the fuel tank panel before taking the water tank panel off and surprise guess what's starting to leak. The fuel tank is wet at the rear bottom :cry4`
Well just add it to the list  Still love my boat
First pic: strut wear
Second pic: glass and filler removed
Third pic: strut bed
Fourth pic:Water in rear most bilge with water tank removed
 
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Jon W on May 07, 2019, 05:33:22 PM
Regarding your aft tank leak, is the tank leaking or is the fill hose leaking?
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on May 07, 2019, 05:37:36 PM
Jon to be honest I don't know. Filled it last year for first time and rear berth was full of water. Saw a tank in the "for sale area" and grabbed it. Was one of those projects you get to someday.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Jon W on May 07, 2019, 05:52:05 PM
Sorry I should have been more clear, I was asking about the fuel tank leak.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on May 07, 2019, 06:19:47 PM
Will know more when tank is out. Don't think it's the hose as all new two years ago.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on May 19, 2019, 03:22:02 PM
Ok little update. Fuel tank out, leaks at seam :cry4`. New tank being made, not worth trying to fix when a new tank can be had for so little. Tank leak softened the sealant for the tru-hulls in the head sink cabinet. So thru-hulls removed and seacocks installed. Made the epoxy bed for the strut, was easier than I had imagined. Removed old strut and prepared the surface for epoxy. Drilled and tapped holes in each corner for 5/16 bolts. installed nylon 5/16 bolts in each corner of strut. Hang strut from 3/8 rods through existing holes. Install 1 inch dummy shaft in strut with extra cutlass bearing in shaft log, this is to ensure shaft is centered in shaft log. Now tighten 3/8 threaded rod while turning shaft. Use the nylon bolts to maintain the position of the strut. When shaft is alined ensure nylon bolts are snug and remove 3/8 nuts a few inches to allow you room to apply thickened epoxy on strut (pva, wax on strut face), tighten the 3/8 rods till the nylon bolts contact the hull. This gets you in the ballpark a slight adjustment while spinning the shaft. Let dry.
When set, removed the threaded rods and supporting the strut so it won't fall run the nylon bolts in slowly pushing the strut from the hull. You are left with a bed for your strut. I thought this would be the hardest job but was not bad. Now for the leaks guess i should start a new tread for that.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on May 30, 2019, 04:19:14 PM
Well new tank arrived and shaft should be done tomorrow. Could be a busy day at the boat this weekend.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on June 01, 2019, 01:14:26 PM
Well shaft is here :clap.
Promised some pictures of the cracks and after grinding gelcoat off the area here is a picture from the inside.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on June 01, 2019, 01:22:56 PM
And a shot from the outside. It appears that the skeg was a rounded area and a finish piece was applied over with voids at the edges. So most of the repair will be from the inside.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on June 09, 2019, 03:42:39 PM
Well time for an update. Strut mounted :clap Fuel tank installed  :thumb: New shaft in the log :abd:
 Had a good weekend at the boat. Strut installed with new shaft in place. Got the new fuel tank mounted and plumbed. Filled the voids that held water in the rear of the boat. Next weekend have a plan for filling the area around the strut and can get back to installing my new transmission.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: glennd3 on June 09, 2019, 05:17:00 PM
Just a suggestion, if it is possible to align the fuel shut of handle directly under the opening in the cockpit locker it makes getting to it a lot easier. Nice work you do!
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 10, 2019, 04:17:16 PM
Just a suggestion, if it is possible to align the fuel shut of handle directly under the opening in the cockpit locker it makes getting to it a lot easier. ........................

That's the way mine is.  I used to be able to exercise it, i.e., make it work.  Last time I tried, after emptying out what I call "My Toxic Waste Dump" port locker which holds all my cleaning stuff (yeah, like I ever use any of it! :shock:)  Maybe it's 'cuz I finally changed my primary fuel filter after 900 hours.  Not a typo.  2613 to 3505 hours.

So I guess my recommendation is to change the filter more often so the valve works.  Otherwise, you'll end up having to pull "The Ron Hill Trick" of vise clamps with sacrificial material around the hose.  Always nice to have a backup method.

Of course, I have "The" second fuel filter cutoff valve just willin' & able to be put into into the filter body and hose under the head sink, sitting in my "To Do" box.  Since 2003...

That valve does work.  :D
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on June 10, 2019, 04:40:33 PM
I actually can reach it from through the head sink.
Would Rather fight to get it that way then to have to empty the locker. thanks
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: glennd3 on June 10, 2019, 06:15:28 PM
I will have to check mine, thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: jmcdonald on June 10, 2019, 11:01:16 PM
I put a bomar type hatch in the bulkhead between the aft cabin and the fuel tank.
Pop it open and you get access to the shut off , the fuel gage wiring, the fuel hose 
and the fuel gage sending unit. Way easier than trying to go thru the cockpit lazarette.

Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: Stu Jackson on June 11, 2019, 10:37:18 AM
jm, thanks for that reminder.  I recall removing the screws holding the teak wall up about, oh, 10 years ago, and never replaced them since the wall stays up all by itself and friction.  All I'd have to have done was pull the wall off to get to the valve.  Doh!  Maybe next time...:D  At my pace, that'd be in 2025...
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on July 10, 2019, 05:26:16 PM
Small update strut in and area around filled. No easy trick as gravity was working against me the whole time.
New shaft in with new coupling.
Engine out of the galley and back where it belongs with new mounts.
Heat exchanger moved from back of engine to bulkhead to allow access to trans and back of engine.
So the transmission part of the job is coming to a close, still have cables and wires and hoses to route but a see a light.
Unfortunately the light is not bright, as I need a rudder, big crack and delamination around the shaft and overall poor condition.
Owners that don't go through the freeze/thaw cycle are very lucky.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on July 10, 2019, 05:29:37 PM
Picture of the strut
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: dfloeter on July 11, 2019, 08:29:12 AM
Our rudder had that same crack this year and I was able to repair it.   After grinding out the crack to metal the area was ground back to a good taper I laid in layers of glass starting narrow and ending up wrapping the full length of the taper.   The results looked good and I hope strong.
Title: Re: Transmission replacement
Post by: kh3412 on July 11, 2019, 05:40:54 PM
Had thought about repairing but have the old style rudder and think I can take care of two issues at once.
Hope your repair stands the test of time :thumb: