I purchased my '89 C34 knowing full on that I'd have to replace the water heater, as it was rusted and icky... but little did i know how bad it was... oh and the big hole is NOT part of my deconstruction of the outer shell. that's how i found it once i took the insulation off...
Hmmm? Somebody please correct me if I am wrong, but that doesn't look like the original '89 OEM water heater?
Guys : That's what the inside of the "square" water heater looks like.
I suspect that at some time there was a freeze that did in that water heater!!
A thought
Quote from: Noah on May 02, 2018, 02:10:49 PM
Hmmm? Somebody please correct me if I am wrong, but that doesn't look like the original '89 OEM water heater?
Yep, a Seaward 5 gal.
MD, the case wasn't around it, or did you scrap that pulling it out of the cabinet?
-k
Quote from: KWKloeber on May 02, 2018, 02:40:07 PM
MD, the case wasn't around it, or did you scrap that pulling it out of the cabinet?
yes, it was an old seaward unit, with insulation and a squared off housing around it. here pics of the unit back from the survey
Ah ha! Now I get it! It was the round peg in square hole that threw me!
It looks pretty dangerous indeed! :cry4`
mdid,
Thanks for that fine photographic presentation.
A question: Before you removed it, did you still have the heating loop from the engine functional?
A friend is experiencing no hw when he runs his engine, a new-to-him issue. I just learned about it tonight, so we haven't had any time to actually troubleshoot. But he has no water in his bilge and his engine doesn't overheat, so that coolant part of his circuit seems to be intact. Just wondering what your experience was.
Thanks.
Stu
The problem is on an M-25//xp with the same WH hose setup?
The WH loop could have a blockage (or air lock) and the engine wouldn't necessarily overheat. Hot coolant just wouldn't get to the WH. What could occur, though, is the block could be damaged if it develops a hot spot(s) because the coolant isn't flowing before the Tstat opens.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9868.msg75253.html#msg75253
Verify that there's coolant flow in the return hose back to the coolant pump (most think the coolant pump "pumps" to the Hx, but it actually "sucks" from the Hx and pushes coolant back thru the engine block.)
This is why you drain then bypass a water heater and don't try to winterize it with propylene glycol.... That one looks like it froze, I see this with some regularity up here in the Great white North... That said I would urge anyone to consider something better in quality, such as an IsoTemp, rather than these beer can water heaters, when it will fit.. :thumb:
mdid,
That's what mine looked like(2nd set of pics)before I junked it. Do yourself a favor go tankless, you'll never be sorry. You'll have as much hot water(not warm)as you can use and you won't have to run the motor to get it.
Quote from: KWKloeber on May 02, 2018, 10:40:55 PM
Stu
The problem is on an M-25//xp with the same WH hose setup?
The WH loop could have a blockage (or air lock) and the engine wouldn't necessarily overheat. Hot coolant just wouldn't get to the WH. What could occur, though, is the block could be damaged if it develops a hot spot(s) because the coolant isn't flowing before the Tstat opens.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,9868.msg75253.html#msg75253
Verify that there's coolant flow in the return hose back to the coolant pump (most think the coolant pump "pumps" to the Hx, but it actually "sucks" from the Hx and pushes coolant back thru the engine block.)
Ken,
I started that link. Perhaps I misunderstand your point. My friend had run his M25 engine all day. No overheating.
Page 33, Figure 13 in the M25 manual shows that the water heater would be in SERIES with the coolant circuit. If so, would not a blockage in that "leg" of the circuit cause engine overheating if was blocked with thermostat open? Are you indirectly saying the thermostat may not be opening?
Stu
The link was direct to MY post, explaining to Noah what that hose is, and how the WH loop works. Take a read thru it.
On all y'alls boats the bypass hose was removed from the OEM M-25//xp engines and the WH put into a parallel loop, BASICALLY replacing the OEM KB loop created by the short bypass hose. It's just a MUCH LONGER loop and has a WH coil in the middle of the loop. See my pics showing the hose that your WH loop replaces.
Even on the early C30 M-25s, the Hx was never in series with that bypass hose. The short hose existed OEM Kubota on the early engines and at some year? CTY changed to the setup the MkII C30 and your boats have. (I made that mod to my Mk-I / M-25).
I'm not sure which manual you're referring to? Parts? Owner/Ops? Service?
The pic I pasted (parts manual) in my post shows no Hx in series. The pic SHOWS the bypass hose which is CORRECT. That's OEM Univeral and Wb.
CTY is the one who scraps the bypass hose when they plumb to the WH.
That WH loop replacing the bypass hose is WHY we get H W so quickly. Circulating coolant is heating the water because it's NOT in series w/ the Hx, and H W doesn't depend on the thermostat opening.
In effect one can disconnect the WH and plug both hoses (not have to connect them together) and won't overheat. BUT it's dangerous because of the "hot spots" I explain in my other post.
Make sense or did I muck it up further?
-K
Stu
Ok I see —. In the OPS manual.
The FIG 13 is wrong, it has a couple flaws in it.
When I get time I will 'adjust' it and post the correct flow pattern.
It doesn't show a WH so one can't infer anything about the loop from that fig.
K
Quote from: Stu Jackson on May 02, 2018, 09:04:55 PM
A question: Before you removed it, did you still have the heating loop from the engine functional?
presumably the loop itself was still intact. i was able to run the engine during survey and winterization without a loss of coolant or anything.
i did pull the hoses between the water heater and the engine. they were in really rough shape, but still "intact" enough
i never did fill the fresh water side of the plumbing stuff, figured there wasn't any point since all the hoses and tanks needed to be replaced or cleaned
Quote from: scgunner on May 03, 2018, 07:34:29 AM
That's what mine looked like(2nd set of pics)before I junked it. Do yourself a favor go tankless, you'll never be sorry. You'll have as much hot water(not warm)as you can use and you won't have to run the motor to get it.
tankless on a boat? that's the first i've heard of that. who makes such device?
Guys : Eliminating the water heater (loop) has been mentioned on this site a few times. Simply run a short hose from the water pump to the thermostat housing (replacing the existing hoses that go to the water heater)!
I first heard about that when I met a Erickson owner in Florida that did that to his M25 engine. Even in Fl. warm waters he had no problem!
However, I wrote a Mainsheet article Tip that stated - "If you ever get into a situation where you have an overheating engine and MUST run the engine for a short time (emergency) - turn on the hot water in the galley and head fausets fully. Then the WH will help act as another heat exchanger".
A thought
Quote from: mdidomenico on May 03, 2018, 09:24:43 AM
Quote from: Stu Jackson on May 02, 2018, 09:04:55 PM
A question: Before you removed it, did you still have the heating loop from the engine functional?
presumably the loop itself was still intact. i was able to run the engine during survey and winterization without a loss of coolant or anything.
i did pull the hoses between the water heater and the engine. they were in really rough shape, but still "intact" enough
i never did fill the fresh water side of the plumbing stuff, figured there wasn't any point since all the hoses and tanks needed to be replaced or cleaned
md-
Thanks so much for your reply. Understood.
For feedback from me, my friend investigated further at his engine.
He just explained it to me this way:
"We've had this boat for about 2 1/2 years now, and here in the PNW we're sailing only half the year. Kinda like folks back east who have to pull their boats, but we stay in the water. I looked at the engine and the hose between the thermostat housing and the top of the water coolant pump (M25 engine, 1983 C36). There was NEVER a connection to our water heater, which only heats by electricity!!! [There IS a hose between the T housing and the the top of the coolant pump. Just like the diagrams in the manuals and the TOAD website show, and that Ron has told us, repeatedly about.] Oddly enough, my wife simply never told me about it, and she's the one in charge of the galley - without being a galley slave." :D:D:D
So folks, the "big problem" for my friend has been solved completely. Heck, if it ain't connected... :cry4` :shock: :clap :D
He thanks you all for your help. :thumb:
It was 1986 when the factory removed the bypass hose and connected the WH. The c-30!Mk-II was the switch.
ALL pre 86 came with the hose still in place.
K
mdid,
I got mine from Seaward Marine, there are a couple of other companies that also supply marine quality tankless heaters. You probably haven't heard of them on boats because they don't seem to be very popular with the boating community in general. I think boaters are afraid they will explode or catch fire or something. I've had mine for about 15 years, like any other piece of equipment that's properly installed and maintained it's performed flawlessly. Comparing it to a typical 6gal water heater is like comparing a Ferrari to a Yugo.
Quote from: KWKloeber on May 03, 2018, 08:33:00 AM
Stu
The link was direct to MY post, explaining to Noah what that hose is, and how the WH loop works. Take a read thru it.
On all y'alls boats the bypass hose was removed from the OEM M-25//xp engines and the WH put into a parallel loop, BASICALLY replacing the OEM KB loop created by the short bypass hose. It's just a MUCH LONGER loop and has a WH coil in the middle of the loop. See my pics showing the hose that your WH loop replaces.
Even on the early C30 M-25s, the Hx was never in series with that bypass hose. The short hose existed OEM Kubota on the early engines and at some year? CTY changed to the setup the MkII C30 and your boats have. (I made that mod to my Mk-I / M-25).
I'm not sure which manual you're referring to? Parts? Owner/Ops? Service?
The pic I pasted (parts manual) in my post shows no Hx in series. The pic SHOWS the bypass hose which is CORRECT. That's OEM Univeral and Wb.
CTY is the one who scraps the bypass hose when they plumb to the WH.
That WH loop replacing the bypass hose is WHY we get H W so quickly. Circulating coolant is heating the water because it's NOT in series w/ the Hx, and H W doesn't depend on the thermostat opening.
In effect one can disconnect the WH and plug both hoses (not have to connect them together) and won't overheat. BUT it's dangerous because of the "hot spots" I explain in my other post.
Make sense or did I muck it up further?
-K
Ken,
I have read it. I started that thread.
No muck, it's just that I think there may be a "disconnect" between the application of the words series and parallel.
The short 3/8 inch "bypass" hose, between the coolant pump and the thermostat housing provides a pathway for the coolant to circulate as shown on the referenced flow diagram from the engine manual. When the water heater replaces that short hose, it is in series with the entire coolant flow circuit, not parallel.
The parallel circuit you keep mentioning may well be the internal thermostat bypass which operates before the thermostat opens. Could this be your parallel item?
If one examines Bob Kuba's excellent tech wiki article about adding a bus heater core & fan, it clearly shows that the "exterior" loop HAS TO BE in series through both the water and bus heaters for the coolant system to continue to work.
http://c34.org/wikiwp/?rdp_we_resource=http%3A%2F%2Fc34.org%2Fwiki%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DCabin_Heater
Quote from: KWKloeber on May 03, 2018, 08:33:00 AM
Stu
Ok I see —. In the OPS manual.
The FIG 13 is wrong, it has a couple flaws in it.
When I get time I will 'adjust' it and post the correct flow pattern.
It doesn't show a WH so one can't infer anything about the loop from that fig.
Sure, one can simply "show" the water heater: between the coolant pump and the thermostat. Bob Kuba's diagram is pretty clear on that, as is the plumbing diagram in the C34 boat manual, which is the basis for Bob's diagram.
Ken, if you don't have time to correct and show the flow pattern you mention, perhaps you can just describe where it is wrong. That may help to clarify this parallel vs. series issue.
Stu
You wrote
""Page 33, Figure 13 in the M25 manual shows that the water heater would be in SERIES with the coolant circuit. ""
That is incorrect. The WH loop PARALLELS the coolant (ie, Hx) circuit.
As I said below. Fig 13 is WRONG.
K
Ken, I know you said it was wrong. All I asked was to explain why.
From Science Digest:
"Pipes are said to be in series if different lengths of pipes of different diameters are joined end to end with the entire flow passing through all pipes. Sometimes two or more pipes are connected so that the fluid flow splits among the branch pipes and eventually combine downstream into a single pipe. Such a piping system is referred to as parallel pipes."
In series piping, if ALL OF THE WATER goes through all of the pipes without any parallel branches, it is a series piping system. We have ONE pump, which circulates all the coolant water through the entire system: pump >> water heater >> thermostat >> manifold >> HX >> back to pump.
It is one continuous "pipe" and the water flows through the whole system equally. There appear to be no branches.
At least that I can see.
That is why I'm asking. That's all.
I will correct the figure. That will be easier and quicker than trying to describe the coupke errors in the figure, and the back and fourth trying to further clarify it.
I know the effin difference between series and parallel, Stu. That's not the "disconnect". The disconnect is that Universal couldn't publish an accurate flow schematic of its own effin engine!! You know yourself that the Hx doesn't connect back to the engine block. The 7/8" hose connects to the 1" hose nipple on the coolant pump.
That's only ONE of the couple errors.
K
Thank you. No need to be rude.
In a random attempt to lighten the mood...(and bring it back to me) I RETIRED TODAY!!! Lots 'O sailing ahead! 8)
Congratulations, Noah. Well deserved. Now, as I've learned, is when you really get busy. :D
Stu
I don't know what's rude.
Maybe continuing to insist that when I say parallell, I really mean series? Or that when in the first answer I explained you can't rely on that figure to understand what's going on, but need to be scooped on how water flows they pipes?
you asked what's wrong with the fig and I gave you one example of several errors. There's more than I can explain. I'm on the road and have 12 hours ahead of me otherwise I'd pull over and revise the figure to solve this emergency. What I am trying to tell you is I know Universal engines and when I state something is correct or is wrong, its not on a whim or without thought. Just go with what i am saying for now.
Oh, yeah- the cabin heater article has nothing to do with the engine cooling loop. There's no Hx in his schematic, correct? Only the WH loop, which parallels the engine cooling circuit. The cooling circuit isn't shown in his diagram.
Ken, you seem to be an intelligent person and have provided us with lots of things to consider. But, I wish you would get out of bed on the right side. Reading through a few posts this morning, i came across the following; criticism of CTY(rather lengthy), POs, "Engineer guys" and "Jesus H. Christ guy".
"if you can't say something positive about someone, then don't say it at all". This was one of the rules my parents raised me by(among many others).
Have a good day.
Paul
Welcome aboard Noah! This will be my second summer of retirement and I'm looking forward to 8-10 weeks aboard cruising Georgian Bay and the North Channel. :thumb:
Ken,
I echo Paul's eloquent comments. I value the knowledge you share but...
That's great Noah, I'm happy for you!!!! :D
The simple short answer, which I've spent some time figuring out here at the Catalina Rendezvous in Roche Harbor between visiting with great new friends, appears to be that the water heater loop is, in itself, THE parallel loop. This appears to be the case because the coolant pump as shown on the linked diagram pulls the water through the block and then outputs it to the HX. Yes, the short 3/8" hose IS the "bypass" hose, replaced by the heater loop, which is in parallel with the main circuit of the coolant system. Bypass = parallel.
I was wrong earlier.
Dave, maybe we will cross paths in the North Channel.
Paul
Paul,
Hopefully so. We met up only briefly at Killarney last season.
Ok, here's the corrected coolant flow schematic for the M-25, etc. This is just the schematic itself, PDF page info is below.
(http://c34.org/wiki/images/9/92/M25_cooling.jpg)
There were several fubars on Universal's Fig 13, including coolant going to the wrong locations and in the wrong direction (what's a few reversed flow arrows among friends?) No bypass hose wasn't an "error" per se, because IT IS removed for CTYs (but not necessarily removed on engines installed in other boats.)
The corrected page 33 will be inserted in the PDF on the Wiki (Manuals page) if anyone wants to download a corrected copy. Or print the revised page attached hereto to insert in your manual.
Note for those who have WHs connected up, you can see why the bypass hose WAS (past tense) necessary, but is no longer, to keep coolant circulating in the engine block while the TStat (depicted as a butterfly valve) is closed. The thermostat also blocks flow to the exhaust manifold, so that's why the TStat flange needs a couple 1/8" holes. If flow isn't maintained before the TStat opens, the exh manifold will develop hot spots (and can go wappy jawed.)
Any questions on why what goes where -- just fire away questions!
Cheers,
-ken
Thank you, Ken. Nice work. Hope your 12 hour trip went well and was successful.
Quote from: scgunner on May 04, 2018, 08:56:01 AM
mdid,
I got mine from Seaward Marine, there are a couple of other companies that also supply marine quality tankless heaters. You probably haven't heard of them on boats because they don't seem to be very popular with the boating community in general. I think boaters are afraid they will explode or catch fire or something. I've had mine for about 15 years, like any other piece of equipment that's properly installed and maintained it's performed flawlessly. Comparing it to a typical 6gal water heater is like comparing a Ferrari to a Yugo.
Your posts about a on demand water heater on a C34 piqued my interest. Is it electric and/or propane?
Bill,
It has electrical controls and connections so you can run it from the main panel. The Seaward unit normally runs on propane, however since I still have the stock CNG system(which I prefer over propane for safety reasons)I asked them to convert it to CNG which they did at no extra charge. It made the combination of 6gal water heater and H2O sun shower obsolete.
Guys,
Electric On-Demand = Be sure you're shore power service can handle it, most 30A services can't handle even the smallest electric on-demand heaters without exceeding a safe loading range of the service... You're likely looking at increasing the shore service to a 50A service 125V/250V service.
LPG On-Demand = There are no on-demand LPG water heaters I know of that meet the ABYC safety standards. After the Paloma LPG on-demand deaths a number of years ago the insurers have become pretty strict on LPG safety and what they will underwrite. I have had to physically remove on-demand LPG units due to insurance surveys.
Those who have been turning blue waiting with bated breath for the corrected M-25, et al, Owner's Manual to be posted, you can breathe again.
it's online.
THANKS David Sanner!!
Ken
Quote from: KWKloeber on May 10, 2018, 12:01:17 PM
Those who have been turning blue waiting with bated breath for the corrected M-25, et al, Owner's Manual to be posted, you can breathe again.
it's online.
I'll keep holding my breath, though, waiting patiently for the
link. :thumb: :D:D:D
Bill,
As you see whenever you mention tankless water heater it stirs up a bit of controversy. I do recall there being problems with the Paloma TWHs when boaters tried to install them. The problem was the Paloma was a household not a marine application. The unit I chose to install is a Precision Temp(not Seaward) marine tankless water heater. All I can do is relate my experience with my TWH. It's basically been 16 years of trouble free operation since I installed it.
Concerning shore power, until recently(marina rebuild) I've had a 30amp service, a couple of years ago it was upgraded to 50amp, I haven't noticed any difference. Also, it's a 12v system that runs off of the boat batteries so I'm not sure what difference the shore power would make.
I'm not up on all the details but the install manual says it's Coast Guard and ABYC compliant. I had an insurance survey done 4or5 years ago and of course they found a few problems but the water heater wasn't one of them.
Kevin,
Eh, a little controversy can be a good thing sometimes. Is your tankless water heater located under the galley sink and how did you handle the power vent?
Quote from: Stu Jackson on May 10, 2018, 03:18:52 PM
I'll keep holding my breath, though, waiting patiently for the link. :thumb: :D:D:D
Ok, I'm
busted. That was by DESIGN.
it's not a bad thing for owners to become familiar with clicking around the wiki !!
Especially manuals, ALL of which are linked right off the
wiki home pagehttp://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Catalina_34
It's the one
UPDATED 5/10/18
Bill,
I had originally considered installation under the sink but it presented some problems; first you'd have to remove the existing water heater, second the compartment isn't well vented, third the vent piping would have to make a fairly long run ending with a new hole in the boat and some kind of vent cover.
I finally settled on the aft lazeret as the best location. The compartment is big and well vented, the run on the vent piping is only about 3 feet and I was able to use the existing vent on the rear starboard side. I have a stern shower on the transom so I was able to tie into the water lines right there, however if you had to run water lines to the galley it wouldn't be a be deal.
The bottom line, PrecisionTemp builds a safe, high quality, marine grade tankless water heater. Mine has been providing hot water for 16 years, so far. If you want water hot water all the time it's the way to go, if you're good with a little warm water occasionally, stick with the crowd.
Quote from: scgunner on May 10, 2018, 05:53:07 PM
I'm not up on all the details but the install manual says it's Coast Guard and ABYC compliant. I had an insurance survey done 4or5 years ago and of course they found a few problems but the water heater wasn't one of them.
In order to be ABYC compliant the unit would need to be
sealed-combustion meaning the intake air for combustion and exhaust are sealed from the interior of the vessel and directly sourcing the combustion air from outside the vessel. Examples of sealed combustion appliances would be the Dickinson P9000 and P12000 wall mounted furnaces where it uses a two pipe system where by intake air come in through the outer pipe and exhaust air vents through the inner pipe.
The Precision Temp units are, IMHO, very well designed & much better than the cheap Chinese junk that is out there, but without sealed combustion they don't
technically meet the ABYC standards.
Some surveyors are sharper than others on noting non-sealed combustion units, so I believe fair warning is in order when we discuss LPG appliances such as on-demand water heaters.
Like anything it is your boat and you can do what ever you want on it, unless your insurer demands otherwise.
If anyone knows of a sealed-combustion on-demand water heater please let me know about it.
The instructions state:
• All combustion air must be supplied from outside the
Boat, and all products of combustion must be vented to
outside the Boat.
I take it that doing that, it would presumably be ABYC compliant.
The installation instructions and pics show a 2" flue, but don't show a source duct or how/where to bring outside combustion air to the unit.
Kevin, how would that be done with that unit since you're familiar with it?
ken
ken,
I chose the aft lazeret because it's big and breathes so well, probably why the reefer compressor was located there. To vent the flue I used the existing vent on the aft starboard deck and connected them with about 3' of metal ducting. As for the intake, I just draw the air from the compartment, I imagine if you were so inclined you could rig an intake duct with a new vent on the transom but I haven't found this to be necessary.
The exhaust duct never gets to hot to touch, I imagine you could even run the unit without the exhaust duct. Wouldn't be a very smart thing to do though, you'd be recycling warm air which would cut down unit efficiency and down the road could overheat the compartment. Removing warm air from the boat is always a good thing.
K-
NIce. Sounds like the way/where you installed would be the only reasonable way to be compliant.
Although I suppose some sort of covering/hood and supply hose could be fashioned to supply outside air "directly" the unit, ducting fresh air to other than the lazarette would not be viable.
-k