Just a heads up - If you haven't serviced your winches recently - then consider it's time.
We've owned Eximius for 20 months and done a lot of work on her while trying to get out and enjoy the fruits of our labor.
Just over a week ago, I decided to bite the bullet and get down to service the Jib Sheet Winches.
They were pretty horrid inside, but no obvious wear and tear. So after a good cleaning and lubrication as per Lewmar's instructions, they're back in service and no longer squeak, grate, grind, or growl when we're using them.
Next I set to on the Main Halyard Winch (Stbd Cabin top) - not quite so lucky here. The Stainless Steel inner shaft had warped to the point that it took an hour to remove it from the winch.
After cleaning everything, it would not reinsert! Inspecting it with a mag glass, I realized that the splines had deformed and so left vertical grooves inside the brass (or is it bronze) winch mounting.
I realized that I was probably going to have to replace the winch and so risked taking a dremel to the stainless steel splines. It worked a treat, but I'll be looking out for a replacement winch when the budget allows.
I may have been able to avoid this excessive service by servicing them sooner. I have no idea when they were last serviced.
They are now in my Seasonal Service list.
Paul
Paul
What model is that winch?
Paul
I had a similar problem but on my port side cabin top winch. The spines were galled. Not sure how that happens. I had a friend turn it in his lathe and reassembled and have been using it for several years without problems. It does get very light used however. It raises the jib at the beginning of the season and it gets used to adjust halyard tension, but not as much as a secondary gets used. Before replacing it keep in mind that these get used at low speed, compared to an engine, and a relatively small irregularity will cause minimal wear over a years time at these loads and speeds.
Paul : Look on the Lewmar web site, they have an instruction booklet on servicing your winches.
A thought
We have tested the winch after servicing and it works fine.
I did get the servicing instructions from the Lewmar Website. The same instructions are used for several of the winch models.
http://www.lewmar.com/sites/default/files/winch%20service%20manual%20b2304%20iss6.pdf (http://www.lewmar.com/sites/default/files/winch%20service%20manual%20b2304%20iss6.pdf)
Peggy has never been able to raise the main, so while at the Miami Strictly Sail Boat Show last week, I purchased a Winchrite Cordless Winch Handle.
She loves it! It's not as fast as when I grind the regular handle, but plenty fast enough. The main was fully raised a couple of times with just a firm grip on the Winchrite.
Paul
Paul, although it sounds like you solved your problem with your fancy powered winch handle, some other things to consider for you and/or others: It should not require heroic strength to raise the main:
1. If you are sufficiently head to wind.
3. Winch is operating properly
2. You have done your best to eliminate "friction points"-- which can be many on the C34 Mk1.
Friction points are: poorly turning sheaves (replace with ballbearings model and lube), friction on slides in sail track (lube with dry sailcoat spray) I solved sail friction "problem" by installing Tides Marine Strong track system (works great). Also, check/replace masthead sheaves with new ballbearing model and make sure halyard is correct size. All things to consider.
Paul,
One last input in addition to Noah's great points, and repeated regularly, usually around springtime when folks ask about raising the main:
Raise it 90% at the mast, grind the last 10% with the winch. This avoids a lot of the friction points.
Thanks Noah, Stu, et.al.
Raising the main at the cabin top is a lot easier for the 1st heave ho. Although with the serviced winch, new halyard and now the Winchrite, it's no big deal for Peggy to raise it.
I've replaced the Cabin top deck organizers and the mast base sheave and the Line Clutches.
The mast head sheave is probably original = 30 years old and well weathered, that's next on the list.
Not sure if it's possible to replace that with the stick up or if I have to wait till we pull the mast out - not looking forward to that!
I have been up the mast a few times, no big deal to go up/down, but couldn't see how to replace that sheave.
Paul
Paul- unfortunately on our boats the masthead sheaves cannot be changed with the mast steppped. Unless someone has a magic solution I am not aware of? Also you mentioned raising the main from the cabintop. I do that frequently (called jumping the halyard) goes up really quick and easy, then I/we crank the last couple of feet. Gotta be careful with managing the halyard tailing aft when solo, or you can have a tangle. Sometimes I have cleated it at a the mast then cleaned it up, put it on the winch then uncleated at mast and then cranked it up. Kinda clumsy... but whatever works. LOL!
Quote from: Noah on February 24, 2017, 11:07:40 AM
Paul- unfortunately on our boats the masthead sheaves cannot be changed with the mast steppped. Unless someone has a magic solution I am not aware of? Also you mentioned raising the main from the cabintop. I do that frequently (called jumping the halyard) goes up really quick and easy, then I/we crank the last couple of feet. Gotta be careful with managing the halyard tailing aft when solo, or you can have a tangle. Sometimes I have cleated it at a the mast then cleaned it up, put it on the winch then uncleated at mast and then cranked it up. Kinda clumsy... but whatever works. LOL!
Noah's right, gotta pull the stick to do the halyard sheaves. Garhauer has them.
Agree about the halyard jumping, too. I have a small cleat on the mast and o that, even singlehanding. Rick Allen did one much better: put a cam cleat on the mast, raise it, go aft and pull (after clearing the line on the deck). Done. He posted a picture some time back, I forget if I put it in the 101 Topics, I'll go look. PS - Nope, not there. I have a flick somewhere, just give me time.
I like that simple idea of a jamb cleat on the mast. If positioned just right, then tensioning the halyard when back at the cockpit would snap the halyard out of the cleat.
Very simple and very neat.
Will take a close look at that.
Thanks Stu.
Paul
Me too!
Jams, clam(shell), and cams..... lotsa bastardization of those terms by manufacturers.
(http://ep.yimg.com/ay/landfallnav/schaefer-cleat-jam-6-152mm-black-20.jpg)
(http://www.go2marine.com/docs/3/8/7/7/387726F-p.jpg)
(http://ep.yimg.com/ay/landfallnav/schaefer-fast-entry-cam-cleat-assembly-small-20.jpg)
A lateral clam cleat might work nicely.... lower profile against the stick than a cam and if the edge of the shell was just on center of the pull it wouldn't tend to grab the line once released. Kinda depends on how the down haul blocks are located.
(http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-140735411364524_2459_249514235)
If the blocks tend to pull away from the stick a vertical open i.e. "V" clam just off center might work better.
Ha, Stu. Sitting here with scotch in hand...I beat you to it. See pic in thread. Ken- it is truly a cam cleat!
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6055.msg39027.html#msg39027
I have a cleat on the mast, have always used ii to raise the main. My cleat is not in the lineal path of the halyard.(it was there when I bought the boat, not sure of it's original function) Like most of you, it requires a couple of trips to the cabin top to raise the main. It works, but the idea of a cam cleat is a better solution. Would you off set this cam cleat? (so it is not in the lineal path of the halyard)
Paul
I think the idea is to have it inline with the halyard deck collar turning block path so that when you pull out the slack (from in the cockpit) it pops the halyard out of the cam cleat.
Quote from: Noah on February 25, 2017, 09:32:11 AM
I think the idea is to have it inline with the halyard deck collar turning block path so that when you pull out the slack (from in the cockpit) it pops the halyard out of the cam cleat.
Egzactly!
Paul
Thanks,
It then needs to be down from the spot were the halyard exits the mast.
Paul
Paul
On whether in line or offset depends on the kind of cleat and angle the line makes to the mast.
First, as to your cleat, I have one also, which was for a poor man's/woman's Cunningham. A line a fixed to the stick on port passed up through the cringle, through the center of the cleat horn (a poor pulley) and you tweak luff the using that line, and bend it on the cleat. Naturally the mechanical advantage is 2x and with the horn friction it. well, sucks. As I said a poor attempt at a downhaul/Cunningham, similar to comparing a garhauer block and tackle backstay adjuster, to a haarstik hydraulic adjuster. :-)
So for the cam/clam. It depends on the angle of pull to the downhaul block -- I don't know what that angle is on a 34, before Stu jumps on my butt :-)
. Imagine the halyard's fair lead angle to the lift block is parallel to the mast - the line would tend to seat back into the cams if it were directly in line. In that case I'd offset it maybe the width of one cam, so it pops free, but doesn't engage when taught.
If the angle is such that the halyard can't reengage then it can be installed "in line."
With a vertical (vee) clam cleat the same is true.
With a lateral cam cleat, putting it exactly in line doesn't work well because you'll be putting a lot of stress on one of the clam "shell" halves. You need to pull slightly sideways, so the line pops out of the clam's mouth so to speak. So with that type I'd probably place the open edge of the clam at, or just slightly off from, "in line."
If there's a wide angle between the stick and the halyard to the lift block, then the lateral cam isn't the best, and a cam or vertical clam (sometimes called a vee block) would be better. I think you guys have a vee block on your main sheet? Or at least I've seen that was oem on many CTYs.
You could actually use a jam cleat, with the jam facing down. The tension will lock it if the remaining line to the cockpit is untensioned. Tension it, and it will pop out of the jam "jaw."
In any event it should be only very temporary, unloaded main. Any of those types aren't meant to take high halyard loads. Sometimes clutches aren't enough. I did a job on a J/120 (40') and with its huge main and higher tech lighter lines these days, it had to be double double clutched to prevent slippage. Before that the pit person had to keep the halyard on the winch, or it would slip over time.
kk
Ken- Impressive long dissertation, but IMO, TMI -- over the complicating issue. Intent of the cam cleat is to hold the main halyard temporarily while head to wind, long enough to go back to cockpit, pull out the slack, wrap it on the winch, then tension the halyard--thus popping the halyard out of the cam, and then winching the last foot or so taught. Easy-peasy!
Quote from: Paulus on February 25, 2017, 11:01:03 AM
Thanks,
It then needs to be down from the spot were the halyard exits the mast.
Paul
Absolutely, you have the picture :-) Paul.
The halyard has to run so it can't re-snag into the cleat, no matter the type you use.
Noah If it was so absolutely easypeasy, there would be NO questions from ANYONE on it, correct? i.e. "Intuitively obvious so the solution is left to the student as an excercise." LOL
Not everyone wants to be told what to do - some like to understand WHY.
Although, YPYC MPMC.
k
Noah, thanks for the link with the pic.(worth a thousand words) It had never crossed my mind to solve this little issue, just kept on using the cleat and making two trips to the cabin top. 8)
Paul
PS: I intend to use a cam cleat?
I like this idea of a clam cleat on the mast. I changed the mast head sheave , mast base sheave, deck sheaves to Garhauer roller bearing. I wasted my money, I got a small improvement . It's like hauling a grand piano up the mast to many friction points. Charlie
Thinking thru the "what if's" of main halyard would be worth a few minutes to me. Sure wouldn't want the camcleat to re-engage when I'm putting in the 1st or 2nd reef in the main from the cockpit.
Charlie- the Tides Strong mast track system, although a bit pricey at approx $1,200, was well worth it to me. My main hoists up super easy and drops like a rock.
Jon-- I don't think the cam cleat would engage during reefing as you would have to pull halyard straight down against mast to engage. The angle of the turning blocks on the mast collar leading to deck organizers should keep it away from the cleat and accidently re-engaging. I would guess? All theory for me as I still haven't run my reefing lines aft. It's on my list as soon as I free up two clutches, add another stack to one of my deck organizer and get some time away from work. I would like to stop by and see how yours worked out some upcoming weekend.
Here's the definition:
CAM cleats have two movable jaws.
CLAM cleats are fixed usually plastic line holders under pressure from the standing end.
JAM cleats are offset regular cleats, usually used in Europe that have absolutely NO place on a boat - I think they're dangerous, because if improperly used, with the standing or bitter end on the lower edge, they will not release without unusual pressure, which "ain't good."
For Ken: The mast base block connections make the halyards stand proud of the base. So cam cleats without "keepers", in line with the halyard, work perfectly.
Since this thread has been somewhat hijacked (my bad) from "winch service" to include "Main halyard hoisting issues" perhaps it should be retitled or split into two? Lots of good info here.
Quote from: sailaway on February 25, 2017, 02:54:03 PM
I like this idea of a clam cleat on the mast. I changed the mast head sheave , mast base sheave, deck sheaves to Garhauer roller bearing. I wasted my money, I got a small improvement . It's like hauling a grand piano up the mast to many friction points. Charlie
Charlie,
Wondering your thinking why you prefer a clam? Vertical mount, I presume?
I've done the same as you and no big difference in the work needed to rise the main on my 30. Something ain't right....... but I can't locate what it is.
Interestingly though, I used the Garhauer BB masthead sheaves, but when you talk to the big boys they won't use BB sheaves (with good reasoning I believe after I heard the explanation.) For high static loads like halyards, a high surface sleeve bearing or roller bearing is much better than a tiny surface ball bearing.
I had custom masthead sheaves manufactured for a Beneteau race boat and the shop wouldn't make bb ones -- only delrin, or as we decided on, custom-machined aluminum sheaves with (the better than delrin) oil-impregnated polished bronze bearings.
ken
Hi Noah, I have 2 reef lines led back to the cockpit. Both are a single line system external to the boom. I'm booked Saturday but available otherwise just let me know.
The rigger that re-did my standing rigging said the same thing. So I left the OEM bronze bearing sheaves, but he recommended that the groove be opened up for a better fit with 1/2" halyard.
Jon, did you have wire halyards before?
kk
"Different strokes" as they say. I'm not an engineer nor a rigger but, been around boats all my life, and IMO our boats have pretty small mainsails and the consequent loading forces...? I would think Garhauer would have engineered their replacement BB sheaves to handle the load. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong! :? 8)
I purchased the boat with rope halyards. They have some age, but in good shape. I don't know what it had before. I recall him saying something about wire halyards, but don't remember the details.
Quote from: Noah on February 25, 2017, 09:29:22 PM
"Different strokes" as they say. I'm not an engineer nor a rigger but, been around boats all my life, and IMO our boats have pretty small mainsails and the consequent loading forces...? I would think Garhauer would have engineered their replacement BB sheaves to handle the load. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong! :? 8)
Yeah, I'm not qualified either to form an opinion on the veracity of the big boys' concern, just that the reasoning made sense (my common sense rule) at face value. Whether in this case a bb sheaves is marginal enough to make a difference, I dunno.
It's the headsail sheaves that control, not the main. most always the highest load if carrying a #1. The concern on the main was slippage/creep, not re: the sheaves.
(in sqft)
FSA 100% - B-36.7 =302; C-34 =297, same difference, same concern. J/120 =366
FSA #1 - B-36.7 =453; C-34 =446; close. J/120 =459 still in the ballpark
MSA - B-36.7 =354; C-34 =226; J/120 =414 yowsa. (common practice is to double clutch it or sheath or recore the haly extended a bit on either side of where it falls on the line clutch.)
The Gh bb single block that is closest to the masthead sheave, is rated 2000-lb plus. I would think the masthead sheave would be rated similar (no rating provided in the catalog.) Maybe "much ado about nothing"? Who knows.
"all I ever wanted to do, is drive a train. and look where I ended up."
kk
kk
Still off subject. Another option other than Catalina Direct: http://www.zephyrwerks.com/ This is where I got masthead replacement sheaves for my C30, a recommendation from my rigger in Anacortes. I need to investigate whether I can replace the turning block sheaves for the jib sheets.
Craig
Guys : I know of a couple of C34 owners that have taken an extra Lewmar #30 and mounted it on the starboard side of the mast.
They use it to not only raise the main but also crank someone up the mast. They say it really reduces the effort needed as compared to using the #30 on the coach top.
I went to all BB sheaves (top and base of mast) and even moved the 90 degree turning blocks (BB) aft so that angle was only about 30/40 degrees. It did some good.
A thought
I was out to the boat today and did a few maintenance jobs. Spoke with the rigger at Torresen and he recommended #150 harken cam cleat.(they sell harken products). He thought it was a good idea to mount the cam cleat one line width away from were the halyard exits and goes to the turning block, about 2' down from the exit hole.
Paul
Paul,
Good to see that the "professionals" mirror my thinking., Even if it is easypeazy stuff.
Again I don't know exactly what angle your halyard to the lift the block makes at the exit, but 2 feet might be the minimum.
I think it's something you just have to ihold it in place and see how it lines up it could be 2 foot might not quite be enough Far enough from the exit.
You want to make sure it pulls away from the cleat so that it "pops off" and around the clamshell
kk
"Clam" :?:or "Cam"? :D
Ken-- if you look at the link in Reply #13 first page of this thread it points to a thread whete you will see where Rick Allen placed his cam cleat that WORKS according to all reports.
Yes, but the Harken 150 his rigger recommended is a "Cam" not "Clam".
Quote from: Noah on February 27, 2017, 02:45:27 PM
Yes, but the Harken 150 his rigger recommended is a "Cam" not "Clam".
OK. I take back the term "
professionals."
And he sells them? sheesh.
Quote from: Noah on February 27, 2017, 01:55:30 PM
Ken-- if you look at the link in Reply #13 first page of this thread it points to a thread whete you will see where Rick Allen placed his cam cleat that WORKS according to all reports.
Yep, I saw that before, but not having any frame of reference, hard to tell since my stick is different.
Looks to be more than 2' below the exit - is it? How far would you say?
k
This should tell the story. Only photo I had readily available.
noah
yeah that photos shows the angle nicely. but (continuing to hijack) if Rick's is below the boom, as just a not so wild ass guess, it's more than 2'. Like I said, 2' from the exit doesn't seem right. If Paul's exit is as yours, I'd probably stick it 1/2 way down, and if it's a CAM (not a CLAM as the professional said), no way, with the angle shown, would I place it off center -- but would put it in-line. So much for agreeing with the 'professionals." LOL.
Think that location is about right?
kk
Sorry about the typing error. Since this was not etched in stone Ken, I did say about. One should use their own judgement. Take a look at your own boat and make the calculations. Maybe we don't always agree with "professional" but at least this rigger at Torresen knows his Catalina 34's.
Thanks for the pic Noah. I have a few pics of my boat in my office and the exit hole appears similar. On my recent post, I was hoping for a few comments on the placement of the cam cleat(one line width away from the halyard). I was concerned with the lateral pull once you took up the slack with the winch.
Paul
Installed #150 Harken cam cleat on my mast for the halyard. Placed it precisely 5'7" from the exit hole. This gave me one and one half inch clearance. Put the cleat in-line. Marked, drilled and taped for a stainless steel bolt. Place a little butyl tape from the bolt to outer edges on each side as the mast is rounded and this gave it a nice finished look. (the distance from the exit hole on the mast to the swivel block is 7'2")
Paul
Ahh ha! "About half-way" appears closer than the expert's "about 2'".
Did he tell you to use neverseize on the fastener? If not, to avoid action/galling between the bi metals. back them out one at a time (just leave the cam in place,) apply neverseize, reinstall.
ken
Ken,
I collected info from various sources, thought about it and made the decision to install. I installed based on info I had and will live with my own decision. This way I never have to blame anyone but myself. This has served me well.
The cleat is staying put.
Happy senior,
Paul
Exactly!
My point was, (obviously not clear) redemption is sweet. We need to evaluate the plusses and minuses similar to those I had posted and of course whatever you find on our own situations -- and it ain't as easy peazy as some say to just slap something on and be done, and torreson didn't know jack about were to place it. -- It's a "what works for you" kinda thing.
As far as the corrosion, YBYC thing also, but remember all the times folks try to get stainless boom end-cap screws out of aluminum.. It ain't pretty w/o neverseize.
kk
Quote from: Paulus on March 07, 2017, 06:10:04 AM
Ken,
I collected info from various sources, thought about it and made the decision to install. I installed based on info I had and will live with my own decision. This way I never have to blame anyone but myself. This has served me well.
The cleat is staying put.
Happy senior,
Paul
Ken, try being a little positive. Torresen is a good outfit. They didn't place it, only made a suggestion.
Paul
I didn't say anything about Torreson as a whole, or that they are not a good outfit. Just about the rigger who didn't know jack about placing the cleat (both laterally and height.) As my MIL says, "Just cuz you do it for a living, doesn't mean you know what you're talking about." Maybe he had an off day.
k
Ken, give it a break!! Don't criticize people you don't know.
This is the end of this thread for me. Getting older by the minute.
Paul :!: