Last time we filled the Midships tank, Peggy was below looking at the tank and I was up top managing the water flow into the fill cap. She called out to stop filling because the tank was 'blowing up'
So today we checked it out and found the problem.
The midships tank Vent line passed up on the aft side of the bulkhead at the front of the galley and disappears into the deck area right below the stanchion up top.
But the stanchion does not have a vent (unlike the vent hole in the Port Side stanchion for the holding tank vent)
I can feel the 3 nuts holding down the stbd stanchion and the vent hose in the middle of them.
This is one of those WTH moments!
I'm not prepared to remove and replace the stanchion and wondered if it would be acceptable to run a new vent hose from the tank under the galley into the space beneath the aft berth and then up to T into the existing vent for the Aft tank (the vent is visible in the cockpit on the stbd side just aft of the wheel.)
Paul
If the existing vent tube is just for water, i would not think that it would have to be vented outside. As long as the end of the tube was sigmificantly above the water level, venting to the interior should work fine.
Is there a gap at the end of the tube now, or is the end pressed against a structure to block the end? I would think that if you just backed the tube down a little to allow air to escape from the tube it should work fine.
it's secured to something with a hose clamp.
Paul
My C30 bow and starboard water tanks share the same vent (stanchion).
Craig
The lifeline stantion has a tube on the bottom that the vent hose from the starboard water tank attaches to. The stantion should have a hole in it that makes the vent. The stantion should be attached to the deck with 4 screws/bolts and nuts not 3. On my boat a couple of them were installed without washers so the nuts were buried into the fiberglass. Might be why you only feel 3?
Connecting to the aft tank vent would work as long as you stay high. Would be a lot of extra hose, why not just figure out what is wrong with the stantion vent it is supposed to attach to?
Paul
If you re run the vent hose it MUST remain without a kink or a dip -- i.e., run continuously uphill so any water in it flows back to the storage tank.
It begs the question - where does the vent run and why not just vent it where it's supposed to be?
My vent stanchion developed a crack at the base and I had my stainless guy repair it... The tube to which the vent line clamps to, extends up inside the outside stanchion to just below the lower lifeline. So water vented out goes up to the top of the tube before exiting the hole near the base.
-kk
Thanks guys,
The stanchion does not have the vent hole (unlike the port side stanchion that does have the vent hole)
I'm guessing that a PO replaced the stanchion with a regular instead of the vented type.
Not having a dip in the hose would be difficult - near impossible :?
When we top up the tank, the galley lower draw door is open and a flashlight is placed on top of the tank, then we fill the tank keeping an eye for the water level rise.
So if I just disconnect the hose from the tank and run a new hose, with an anti siphon fitting, into the bilge. Does that sound reasonable.
Paul
Paul, just to add more description to the stanchion vent that many of us have, it is not the same as the holding tank vent. The vent hole on mine is on the outboard side of the stanchion, just below the support arch on the base, and is only about 1/8". Verses the holding tank vent which is on the inboard side and is about 3/8". I only mention that since it originally took me a while to find it after tracing the vent hose up to the stanchion base below decks. You note that the hose is secured with a hose clamp. That sounds like the stanchion tube extension that goes thru the deck for the vent, so just wanted to be sure you were looking in the right place for the hole. It could be clogged, however, which could be why the tank expanded when filling. Others have noted it clogging.
Regards,
Ed
Good point Ed.
I did not inspect the outside of the stanchion, I was looking for the large vent hole on the inside similar to the port side holding tank vent.
If the hole is there (on the outside) it may be just a blockage issue - that I can deal with :santa
Probably won't get to the boat till Saturday - busy week - and then we plan on an overnight cruise locally. I'll check it out then.
Paul
The potable water vents pee overboard, the black water vents pee inboard, which makes sense if you think about it.
kk
Paul : I'll guess that the PO gravity filled the starboard tank by filling the aft tank (which is higher) and opened both gate valves under the galley sink.
That way the stbd tank vent hose just needs to be high as there will be no overflow.
I frequently (usually) used that method to fill my starboard tank as the aft tank has a larger fill hole! - making it easier to fill!!
A thought
Quote from: britinusa on September 04, 2016, 03:47:50 PM
Last time we filled the Midships tank, Peggy was below looking at the tank and I was up top managing the water flow into the fill cap. She called out to stop filling because the tank was 'blowing up'
I noticed my starboard water tank seems bulge too. I did not think it could be caused by water pressure during a refill since any air inside would be forced out the fill tube. I could see how the stanchion vent would be useful when the tank is being drained since the fill cap is closed and air would need to enter as the water is used.
All : The bulge out of the starboard tank is an old phenomena that has been discussed many times.
I believe that it appears in all C34s with a starboard water tank.
A thought
Attached a picture of the starboard water tank vent in the lower part of the stanchion on the outboard side.
Thanks Jon,
If the hole is there, then I'll disconnect the hose from inside the cabin and clean out the stanchion.
Sure hope it's that easy!
Paul
Paul : When you overfilled your STBD tank you should have seen a stream of water coming/shooting out that hole in the stanchion!!
Agreed, but as the vent is definitely blocked, that would prevent it.
My 1990 has the same vented stanchion for waste and for starboard water. Attached is a photo of starboard water vent stanchion. BTW—many boat (even of the same year) are configured differently. My boat can't cross or gravity feed between the water tanks as the tanks are not connected. There is a Y-value to select source. I wouldn't recommend venting to inside the boat, even fresh water. One way I know my tanks are good and topped off is when water comes out the vent.
Speaking of using the filler with the larger opening......
The '84 C-30 had a deck fill that I used in an interesting way - C34 may or may not be the same.
I use a cheap, plastic, plain jane hose nozzle with a garden hose thread end (cheap enough so no one wants to "acquire it" for their one use, and if they do it's only 2-1/2 bucks down the drain.)
(https://ll-us-i5.wal.co/asr/bf85f490-eca1-4ed1-8af5-6686fed61d80_1.17518a2a9bd9d25f9046978d87243856.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF)
I warmed the end of a 6" length of poly tubing and forced it onto a GH female barb (no hose clamp needed)
(http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/images/products/tubing/63001p.jpg)
The poly tubing is a skinch smaller than the ID of the deck fill so the whole shebang slips into the deck fill hole -- the head (GH barb) also fits into the 'indent' below the deck cap. So, I don't need to stand there holding the hose -- just pop this onto my nozzle, slide it into the deck fill and let 'er rip. And go about whatever business is at hand until I hear the stanchion peeing. And it's all right there when I need it -- no "Dammit where did I put that last time?"
-kk
Good one Ken,
I have a Filter Cartridge with a piece of Nylon hose. I connect the Cartridge to the local hose (I have several different fittings) then shove the nylon tube down the fill hole.
The Filter Cartridge has a 3 position control - Filter - Off - ByPass which I use to control the flow.
The only issue we have experienced is with the Nylon hose being forced out of the hole when the pressure is turned up. Your concept might just avoid that one!
(But of course, it's vital that the tank vent works!)
Paul
Paul : I reread your post again.
If you only have 3 nuts holding that stanchion then it must have been replaced. The factory vented stanchion has 4 nuts/bolts that hold it in place.
A thought
I never fill the starboard tank from its own filler. I open both valves (which Noah can't do) and fill the aft tank, gravity fills the starboard tank.
Paul, venting to the aft vent is a great idea, or just drill a vent hole in the hull below the rub rail right there.
Stu, I have to disagree with drilling outboard below the rub rail. The reason is that it isn't unusual to put a rub rail in the water when on a good run or a storm. Imagine salt water being forced in the lower vent hole.....
Take your stanchion off, if the po replaced it or messed with it you may want to insure its bedded correctly and not leaking into your deck. I took all my stantions off last winter and rebedded... it is a headache and you need another person for some of it but wet decks are bad news. I also found the welding to be inadequate on both of my vented stanchions allowing water to leak into the deck. I welded them shut myself and hope that I got it fixed in time. A leak on the tube or at the base will put water right in the core.
Another thing I did was to add backer plates to all the stanchions, I make them at my shop and have about two dozen extra ...with and without the vent hole for vented stanchions. Need any?
Unable to get to the boat till this weekend to inspect the existing stanchion.
Paul
I agree on your advice that backing plates (I'd say stainless or thick aluminum) are the way to go. I don't have them on my boat so caution "guests" about pushing off on stanchions. Good luck with that! I hear Garhauer has them, but yours machined with a personal touch, would be welcome too. Meanwhile, you have a standing invite to come out to San Diego and install them on MY boat! The weather is great in the winter! 8) Unfortunately, my knees aren't, so I am delaying that deck-kneeling job until "a future date". It IS on my to-do list and luckily no signs of leaks (yet) that I know of. Backing plates on my through-hulls are also on my list, scheduled for my next haulout (Oct. 2017) as I have Catalina OEM forespar 1990 valves. Sailing is my main priority for now! For awhile I lost site of that goal--spending many hours and $ rehabbing for that "future cruise" which is still a couple of years off. It's all about balance, they tell me...
Catalina Direct sells the stanchion backing plates as well.
Hi Paul
This situation I had in 2013 may be relevant.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8262.msg57969.html#msg57969
The soft plugs that were pushed up in the stanchion tube were spun cotton or more likely synthetic (nylon/poly something). Don't know it they were to keep insects out or dust/dirt. They did restrict escaping air so much that water often bubbled up while filling, long before the tank was full. On reinstalling, I did NOT put in any filter material.
By the way, just look at the stanchion base on deck to see if you have three bolts or four. Very unlikely that it's three.
For inspecting from below, using a mirror is mandatory although figuring where is outboard and inboard takes a bit of getting used to. When I did mine (both sides in 2013) I removed the galley shelf in which the small white doors slide. A bit of a job, but the only way to get real access to the underside of the deck. That allowed me to sand the underside to take off any gobs of resin etc, then bed in a backing plate and get the four washers and nuts on, then the vent tube and hose clamp. The tube and clamp can actually be put on 'by feel' later if you wish after the shelf is back in place.
I would NOT run the vent tube to another place such as the stern of the boat, nor would I put an additional vent fitting in the side of the hull.
Thanks Roger et.al.
Went down to the boat, confirmed the stbd stanchion vent is as shown above (2 small holes, the higher one slightly larger)
Disconnected the vent hose from below, started to fill center tank, water dripped out of the hose, not a lot! And tank is humped!
poked around the inside of the stanchion tube, found a blockage of dry powdery material, dug that out. Ran a wire up the tube, went up about 1' reconnected hose and tried again, humping right away.
Could be that the actual hose is blocked and that the water was just a build up. So going to replace the hose.
The stanchion does have 4 bolts but only three of them are in view aft of the galley bulkhead.
Paul
Paul, ditto as I said before about running it aft:
No dips, no kinks = no errors.
CTY trained precision technicians were notorious for leaving too much vent hose on the C30s, and they form dips that collect water.
-kk
Looks like time to rebed the stanchion (and then I can check out the vent tube at the same time)
And ... yes, I have already replaced that hose clamp with a non-cutting version. :santa
Ugly site under there. Yes, IMO it's time to rebed (with backing plate while your in there) and check others for similar nasty rusty signs of leaking and corrosion. Not fun.
Hello Paul
Your picture suggests you may have some rot in the plywood in the deck. I had the same problem with the starboard vented stanchion over the galley. I removed the vented stanchions on both sides in 2012, repaired bad plywood on the starboard side, reinstalled with epoxy'd in aluminum backing plates, and took lots of pictures. Thought you might like to see some.
The stanchions came off easily but the job grew in complexity when we found we could not gain enough access to the deck underside (stbd side). We removed the galley shelf with the sliding doors. This is quite a hassle but don't give up; it will come out mostly in one piece but it was a pain (left a few scratches). We had removed the teak trim screwed to the vertical 'lip' of the deck 'head liner' which covers the wiring running fore and aft along the hull. Working with mirrors or lying on your back across the galley wasn't working so we gave up and cut out a piece of the lip of the deck liner. This greatly improved access for sanding the underside of the deck and removing any gobs or resin left by the factory. I don't believe this is a structural issue since it's only about three inches from the hull/deck joint. It could be glassed back in if necessary.
These are my pictures with comments. Some of these pics might be in separate posts.
3857: Galley stanchion and vent tube removed. Teak trim removed. Shelf still in. AC & DC wiring still in. Downward 'lip' of the deck head liner still in tact.
3858: All the above still in. Looking up through a mirror. Impossible to do the surgery we needed and bond in a plywood and a backing plate. We had already determined some plywood was bad. Not sure how far?
3864: Close up from below
3866: Now we're talking! AC & DC out. Big cut out made in the deck liner 'lip'. Probably did not have to go quite so far aft but be sure to leave the ~3/4 inch piece at the forward end as backing for reinstalling the teak trim. Note the shelf is still in.
0281: OK- Shelf finally out. Now using this multi tool/saw, we cut through the bottom layer (skin) of the deck sandwich to see how bad the plywood looked. We cut out the same size chunk of plywood. Go easy, don't cut into the top layer of deck. Not difficult since it's much harder.
0282: Mush a replacement square of plywood with thickened epoxy (with maybe some micro fibres and some anti sag), brace it firmly with a prop. I don't remember if we epoxy'd back in the the thin piece of bottom skin we had first cut out. Seems hardly necessary.
0283: Looking down on the deck at the epoxy'd in plywood. Use the end of a match stick take out some of the epoxy from the bolt holes if necessary so you have a good guiding hole for re drilling.
0584: Plate installed and drilled, holes potted a la Maine Sail, stanchion installed, bedded with Life Caulk. Some Life Caulk squeezed through around the vent tube.
0593: Port side stanchion over nav station. No plywood was rotten here so access must have been tolerable, even though we did NOT remove the shelf or cut out a piece of the 'lip' of the head liner. Nor did we remove the wiring (much more on port side).This pic shows what working through a mirror is like (the wide bolt holes are outboard). If you are using a mirror, make up a thin spacer (cardboard or real thin ply) to hold mirror in place (white piece at bottom of pic) or else you'll be picking up the mirror repeatedly after it falls down.
My recollection of the exact order of the steps we took to carry out this project is a bit fuzzy (2012) but I think it was something like this:
After bonding in the plywood and letting it cure, we lathered up the backing plate with epoxy (enough to fill the voids and seal around the outside edge of the plywood, then pushed it up into place ensuring all the deck holes were covered and that it extended out beyond all four edges of the plywood and would bond to some of the original bottom skin of the deck. We again propped up this plate tight in place, making sure it did not slip out of position while applying pressure with the prop. The plate had no holes drilled at this time. The exact size and shape of the plate was previously determined with lots of dry fitting.
After this cured, and with the prop still tightly in place and using the deck holes as guides, we carefully drilled the four bolt holes through the plywood and plate. Use a one inch (I think) hole saw for the vent tube. Pot and bevel the holes following Maine Sail's excellent instructions:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/sealing_the_deck
I bedded the stanchions with Boat Life Life Caulk. Two years later both stanchions had to be removed again. The port one was bent from a minor accident lifting our engine out and the starboard one leaked a few drops ever so slightly. I rebedded with Butyl and no leaks so far.
The second four pictures. Good luck
Opps, forgot pic 0593.
Thanks Roger,
now I'll have nightmares!
Will report back when I find out how bad it is.
Paul
I had the same issue, sometime the base of the stanchion get bended/arched from lateral pressure (my new slip neighbors hit the stanchion), broke the seal and water sipped in from the vent hole.
What I would also recommend;
1. Over drill the holes, tape the bottom of holes and refilled them with epoxy.
2. Wait 24h, redrill the holes and bevel the upper end of the hole (~45 degrees).
3. Cleanup with rubbing alcohol or Acetone
4. Generously applied butyl tape on the stanchion base. (make sure the bevel part of the hole get filled with the butyl tape)
Since you over drilled the hole, the epoxy will create a sleeve around the screw. Even if it leaks, it won't leak into your deck but simply inside the cabin and makes it easier to detect earlier. Also, *beveling* the holes will give you a greater amount of sealant around the screws and less opportunity to leak. If some of your core is damaged, just use a Dremel and clean it up. You can also use a drill with allen key as a drill bit, aim for the plywood core, not the fiberglass and while it spins it will take the rotten or wet core out. Clean up and now start with step #1. It will fill the void and give a solid and waterproof repair.
Let me know if you would like to see pictures.
Eric
Quote
1. Over drill the holes, tape the bottom of holes and refilled them with epoxy.
2. Wait 24h, redrill the holes and bevel the upper end of the hole (~45 degrees).
Just a comment on above -- I have some time doing this and recently did this with 46 thru-deck fasteners (winches, clutches, organizers, etc.) It's much stronger to create a captive epoxy plug than just overdrilling and creating a thru-deck plug. In other words, the top and bottom holes in the fiberglass skins need to remain as small as possible, preferable as close to the fasteners diameter as possible. Then remove the inside core to create the plug that surrounds the fastener. You use the method RC shows (5/16" dremel -- which means you need to over drill the 1/4" hole to 5/16",) or keep the hole at 1/4" and use the '90-degree, bent finishing-nail" drill bit technique.
RC's method: photo from mainesail's site--
(http://m1.i.pbase.com/g5/84/622984/2/105506491.RdyX2719.jpg)
versus a straight thru plug (again, RC's photos):
(http://m4.i.pbase.com/g1/84/622984/2/106039734.exhG9IAS.jpg)
anything is better than just drilling the deck, but a captive plug is the best method.
JTSO
-kk
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 15, 2016, 07:34:36 PM
Quote
1. Over drill the holes, tape the bottom of holes and refilled them with epoxy.
2. Wait 24h, redrill the holes and bevel the upper end of the hole (~45 degrees).
Just a comment on above -- I have some time doing this and recently did this with 46 thru-deck fasteners (winches, clutches, organizers, etc.) It's much stronger to create a captive epoxy plug than just overdrilling and creating a thru-deck plug. In other words, the top and bottom holes in the fiberglass skins need to remain as small as possible, preferable as close to the fasteners diameter as possible. Then remove the inside core to create the plug that surrounds the fastener. You use the method RC shows (5/16" dremel -- which means you need to over drill the 1/4" hole to 5/16",) or keep the hole at 1/4" and use the '90-degree, bent finishing-nail" drill bit technique.
RC's method: photo from mainesail's site--
(http://m1.i.pbase.com/g5/84/622984/2/105506491.RdyX2719.jpg)
versus a straight thru plug (again, RC's photos):
(http://m4.i.pbase.com/g1/84/622984/2/106039734.exhG9IAS.jpg)
anything is better than just drilling the deck, but a captive plug is the best method.
JTSO
-kk
Well, there is technically less "strong bonding" surface if you do that. If you over drill and after use the "90-degree, bent finishing-nail" drill bit technique. It gives you the best of the 2 worlds, more "strong bonding" surface and bigger distance in between the screw and the core of your deck.
Quote from: Rick Roberts on October 15, 2016, 08:25:00 PM
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 15, 2016, 07:34:36 PM
Quote
1. Over drill the holes, tape the bottom of holes and refilled them with epoxy.
2. Wait 24h, redrill the holes and bevel the upper end of the hole (~45 degrees).
Just a comment on above -- I have some time doing this and recently did this with 46 thru-deck fasteners (winches, clutches, organizers, etc.) It's much stronger to create a captive epoxy plug than just overdrilling and creating a thru-deck plug. In other words, the top and bottom holes in the fiberglass skins need to remain as small as possible, preferable as close to the fasteners diameter as possible. Then remove the inside core to create the plug that surrounds the fastener. You use the method RC shows (5/16" dremel -- which means you need to over drill the 1/4" hole to 5/16",) or keep the hole at 1/4" and use the '90-degree, bent finishing-nail" drill bit technique.
anything is better than just drilling the deck, but a captive plug is the best method.
JTSO
-kk
Well, there is technically less "strong bonding" surface if you do that. If you over drill and after use the "90-degree, bent finishing-nail" drill bit technique. It gives you the best of the 2 worlds, more "strong bonding" surface and bigger distance in between the screw and the core of your deck.
I'll disagree with that from 25-years practical experience doing this because, the "strong bonding surface" in pic #2, is actually replacing/overcoming the fact/needed because, the the skin was compromised in the first place, and are now relying on suspenders so that the plug doesn't pull thru the hole. It's best to keep as much of the original skins (top/bottom) intact as possible and not rely on the adhesion in shear, and remove more of the core if possible (reasonable so.) Removing 1/4" - 3/16" of (good) core all around it plenty. The only reason for overdrilling is to fit the 5/16" dremel reamer bit into the hole (easier than doing the bent nail routine, which fits a 1/4" hole.) Overdrilling considerably further than 5/16" could mean the fastener, etc., no longer covers all the epoxy, or it's more likely to be exposed to UV (degrades the epoxy). Plus, done correctly the balsa end grain becomes infused with epoxy and is waterproof (I use unthickened LOW-viscosity resin/slower hardener in all holes first, let infuse 10-15 minutes, then suck out remainder, and use it w/ microfibers to refill the holes. I get a complete infusion into the core/voids, and any other "barrier" (like drilling/filling an 1/8" or 1/4" larger hole or whatever,) adds no additional water transmission protection but has strength downsides.
That said, YBYC.
-ken
The method Ken shows has been my norm for quite a while.
When i do this, I will leave top and bottom skin in tact, remove core and fill as shown.
I'm actually about to purchase my 2nd roll of Butyl tape ever.
Will take lots-o-pics.
Paul