Long story - just trying to get all the facts on deck.
Went down to the boat to do an oil change, so needed to run the engine for a few minutes.
Here's my engine start routine:
. Check all Thru hulls are open
. Check Dipstick oil level.
. Engine in Neutral
. Throttle at minimum
. Engine Master switch on Electrical Panel in Closed position (6o-clock)
. Key switch On
. Hold Blower Switch down for 30 seconds
. Release Blower Switch
. Press in on Glow Plug button for 15 seconds.
. Release Glow Plug switch
. Press Start Switch - Normally Engine starts without fail.
But it did not start that day.
I had 50% tank of fuel according to my (newish) fuel guage, as I had just put in 5 gallons from a portable tank.
I have never had to hold the start button in for 5 seconds, let alone be concerned about back flooding the engine.
So I left the engine to sit quiet for a few minutes and tried again, no luck.
All of the reading I have done on this site lead me to believe that it was either a fuel issue or an air in the line issue.
Next I opened the drain screw at the bottom of the Racor fuel filter (yes, it's Filter - Pump - Engine Filter routing)
No fuel came out! Tightened the drain screw.
Ah ha! Is it the fuel pump?
I opened the bottom cover of the fuel pump and no fuel came out! Replaced the lower cover.
Getting somewhere.
Next I disconnected the fuel output line from the Pump and replaced it with a spare hose long enough to reach into a can on the head floor.
Turned off the Engine master switch and turned on the Engine key switch.
Back in the cabin, I turned on the Engine master and could hear the fuel pump clicking and after a few seconds, fuel came out into the can. Turned off Engine Master switch.
Removed temporary hose and replaced engine hose to the fuel pump.
Now I needed to bleed the engine, and this is something I have feared as previously mentioned, but from all I have read here, the engine is self bleeding!
So all I needed to do was let the fuel pump tick over for a while.
I let it tick over for 10 minutes, and it settled down to a rapid click.
Back into the cockpit and pressed down on the start button and Varoom! Started like there was never a problem.
Ok, now to think this through...
I'm wondering if the problem is in the fuel take up tube in the fuel tank.
If the take up tube is not near the bottom of the tank, then it will suck air at some point even though the tank has fuel.
So, perhaps on my last trip out, we were actually close to running out of fuel when we got back to the slip.
When I tried to start the engine, perhaps there was no fuel in the line!
But it gets complicated just a bit!
Next day, engine started right away as normal. And I added another 5 gallons of diesel to the tank.
But the next day, after a really cold spell (remember this is South Florida - Everything is relative) with the temps dropping down into the 50s, the engine would not start!
So, I let the fuel pump run for a while and tried again, no luck! Dang! We're scheduled to be the first boat to peel off from the 3 boat raft up.
Then I figured, perhaps the engine is really cold and 15 seconds of glow plug heating is not enough.
I held the glow plug switch in for about 45 seconds. Then start - Varooom! beautiful.
Perhaps the second event was due to nothing more than the unusually cold conditions.
Next step is to empty the aft berth, remove the bulkhead adjacent to the fuel tank and pull out the fuel take up line.
Thoughts?
Paul
Quote from: britinusa on February 12, 2016, 03:55:56 PM
Long story - just trying to get all the facts on deck.
Paul, refresh my memory -- an XP, correct?
Some thoughts - probably not complete though..........
Yep make sure that the fuel pickup has no screen in it (this is a Westerbeke Service Bulletin.)
Check to see that all your glow plugs are getting hot (try not to burn your finger tip.) Check resistance on them to see if they are the same or one is whacky.
Be aware that energizing the preheat for that long can burn out a glow plug (they are 10 volt and don't care for 12 volts that much.)
With your bleed screw closed, the pump should back pressure once the lines are full and start clicking slowly, not fast. Was the bleed close or partially open?
I have my bleed NOT connected to the fuel return line -- everyone asks why I don't connect it (it's so much easier, bla bla bla bla bla bla) -- For precisely the reason it would have helped you instantly - I can open the bleed, catch it in a plastic cup and tell if I'm expelling, air, foam, clean fuel, a strong steady stream, etc.
I also have an off / on / momentary on switch to install in the engine compartment to activate the fuel pump and/or starter for bleeding and troubleshooting (avoids the cockpit ups and downs and dang alarms.)
ken
Yep, M25XP
paul
Paul,
I assume the engine was cranking, just not starting?
Also, do you have a glow plug solenoid? If not, I don't think 15 seconds is enough time. If you do, it should be enough.
Maybe some air getting into the fuel line somewhere? With only a 15 sec glow plug time, might not be enough time to self prime.
Ed
PS: Really no need to activate the blower -- it's a diesel. Though it won't hurt anything.
kk
Ed : It could be your fuel pickup tube.
The tube itself only goes down in to the tank about 90% of the way and the end is about 2 inches above the bottom of the tank. There should be a piece of 3/8" fuel line (about 4" long) attached to the pickup tube.
The idea is that the fuel hose bends and lays horizontal on the bottom of the tank picking up fuel from the tank bottom. There should not be a piece of fine metal screen stuck in the end of that hose (that's what gets clogged!!) Remove that screen if it is there.
Sometimes that hose comes off if the fuel pickup tube is not carefully removed. You might want to check that!
BTW, 30 seconds ON for the glow plugs is what is recommended in your engine manual for an M25 and M25XP engine start.
If you look in WiKi and do the "glow plug solenoid modification", you only need 10 seconds of ON to heat them up for an engine start. Not that hard to do !! :thumb:
A few thoughts
Did you check your engine cut off handle! Is it in the down position? Scratched my head once or twice why the engine wouldn't start. :shock:
I have a m-25 engine an the glow plug time is a 50 count or she want start in cool weather wish I where in Florida , its 10 here today lake Erie. Charlie
"50 count"
Is that like linen sheets? :D
Let's be careful out there.
The reality is that the goal is to not burn out the glow plugs by having them engaged for too long as compared to the time needed to start the engine when cold. Cold varies by regions, since my 40F in winter can be "warm" compared to Chicago's 35F in springtime.
The amount of TIME required is based on whether or not one has installed the glow plug solenoid (whether new boats or old), so one needs to mention that.
And TIME needs to be based on actual seconds, not counts. I use the old method of (gasp! :shock:) a wristwatch or 1,000 - 1, 1,000 -2, etc. With my solenoid I never have to go beyond 12.
With no solenoid 30 seconds is recommended as a starting point.
Suggest one does the individual test I mentioned earlier to minimize the time, and also mentions whether or not a glow plug solenoid is installed and what methods one uses to "count."
As mentioned in the hundreds of glow plug topics on this forum & website, when the engine is warm, one usually does not need the glow plugs, just push start.
I had a similar problem a couple of years ago. Before explaining, here are some comments off the bat:
1) No need to run the blower
2) Without a doubt, if you do not have the solenoid modification for your glow plugs, drop everything you're doing and do that.
3) Also make sure you have the upgraded wiring harness in place too.
It sounds like you're doing the right things to solve the problem. One step I would recommend is that once you are sure you have the fuel system totally bled, close the bleed valve and then back off 1/4 turn or so. That will make your line self bleeding. I believe that is a Ron Hill posting from a bit ago.
If you add a slave relay for the glow plugs, read this and the caution:
http://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Faster,_More_Efficient_Glow_Plug_Heating_with_a_Solenoid#USING_A_RELAY_TO_FIRE_THE_GLOW_PLUGS:
kk
I'm glad that I waited a few days before addressing this.
I'll be on the boat in two days time. So I'll check the fuel pickup tube and see if the glow plug mod is in place.
paul
For what is worth, i have an 86, do not have a solenoid installed yet, and i do a 20 count on the glow plugs. (Solenoid to be added this spring.)
Quote from: SPembleton on February 20, 2016, 04:34:37 AM
For what is worth, i have an 86, do not have a solenoid installed yet, and i do a 20 count on the glow plugs. (Solenoid to be added this spring.)
My M25XP starts in 15-20 seconds without the solenoid but I'm in a milder climate than you mid westerners. When warm, no need for glow plugs at all. For me, it's not worth the effort and risk of burning out glow plugs to install a solenoid for a 5-10 second cold start advantage. That is the least time consuming part of preparing for an outing.
I took the fuel take up tube out. The end filter has been removed, and the tube reaches down pretty much to the bottom of the tank. The tube is a 2 part product. Top part is a metal tube, lower part is a rubber type hose that is pushed up on the metal tube for several inches and held in place with a metal spring clip. But the lower tube is so tight, I doubt it would ever budge unaided.
Also, there does not appear to be any splits in either tube through which air could get sucked in.
So I don't think it's a fuel takeup issue.
I dipped the tank and guestimate it to be really close to the fuel level indicated on the gauge (at 3/4 full)
So I don't think it's a gauge issue as the gauge matches the current fill and it appeared to follow the fill as I added fuel earlier.
My current suspect is simply that it's been so cool here recently (sorry for you folks that 50F is considered cool :santa ) so my prime suspect is not normally running the glow plugs long enough prior to hitting the start button.
Today we counted 20 seconds of glow plug and the engine started 1st time.
I'll start a new thread on another engine issue.
Paul
And.... I'm pretty sure the glowplug solenoid mod is NOT installed.
As far as I can see, the electrical wire from the aft end of the glow plug line runs around the back of the engine, across to port where it's wrapped in a curly earth wire that is connected to somewhere on the engine (out of sight, but below the back of the expansion tank) then the glow wire disappears into the harness that goes up to a chocolate block type connection that is inside an inverted plastic box screwed to the underside of the engine wood work. There is no sign of the glow wire going to a solenoid.
I'm curious about the reason for the solenoid mod. Is it's purpose to avoid having the total glow plug current flowing through the glow plug switch? (and possible switch resistance affecting the current going to the glow plugs) ???
Paul
Paul: Lots written on this:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8084.msg56366.html#msg56366
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8265.msg58008.html#msg58008
Paul : The reason for the glow plug mod is simple.
Originally the factory wired the glow plug current to go from the battery connection on the engine, all the way back to the glow plug switch on the engine panel, and then back to the glow plugs!!
The mod takes the current from the battery engine connection to a solenoid then to the glow plugs. The solenoid is "opened ON/closed OFF" by the glow plug switch on the engine panel. :clap
Clear as mud? A thought
Thanks Ron.
Quote from: Ron Hill on February 21, 2016, 01:36:34 PM
Paul : The reason for the glow plug mod is simple.
Originally the factory wired the glow plug current to go from the battery connection on the engine, all the way back to the glow plug switch on the engine panel, and then back to the glow plugs!!
That's pretty much what I expected.
Quote from: Ron Hill on February 21, 2016, 01:36:34 PM
The mod takes the current from the battery engine connection to a solenoid then to the glow plugs. The solenoid is "opened ON/closed OFF" by the glow plug switch on the engine panel. :clap
Clear as mud? A thought
You said it ' Clear as mud'
Surely the solenoid should be open (when the switch is open) or closed(when the switch is closed) ie. Opened/Off Closed/On
:?
Paul
Quote from: britinusa on February 21, 2016, 03:20:23 PM
You said it ' Clear as mud'
Surely the solenoid should be open (when the switch is open) or closed(when the switch is closed) ie. Opened/Off Closed/On
:?
Paul
This is THE glow plug resource: http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Faster%2C_More_Efficient_Glow_Plug_Heating_with_a_Solenoid (http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Faster%2C_More_Efficient_Glow_Plug_Heating_with_a_Solenoid)
The glow plug button, when depressed, closes the solenoid. When the button is released it opens the solenoid.
Quote
solenoid
Paul note that everyone keeps using the term glow plug solenoid. There's no reason (JTSO) to use a piece of equipment that is meant to switch 300 amps, for a 18-amp load. There's benefits to using a simple, available-everywhere relay, vs. a ford-type starter solenoid.
However there's drawbacks to doing the mod in the first place (cost, adds another failure point, needs another fuse, potential damage to glow plugs.) The benefit is it reduces how many seconds one's finger is on the preheat button. Weigh the pros/cons.
kk
I understand what you are saying KK that the potential for 300 amps is there. However, how will it generate 300amps? Is that available in our electrical system?
One of my biggest reasons for doing my modification is for safety. I either have been in, or have seen others is situations where a few seconds difference in starting an engine could mean the difference in being washed onto a lee shore or being rammed by some other vessel.
Quote from: Lance Jones on February 22, 2016, 09:57:08 AM
the potential for 300 amps is there. However, how will it generate 300amps?
One of my biggest reasons for doing my modification is for safety. I either have been in, or have seen others is situations where a few seconds difference in starting an engine could mean the difference in being washed onto a lee shore or being rammed
Apparently I missed my intended mark. I didn't mean the potential for 300 amps is anywhere. I'm saying the starter solenoid (with it's huge capacity) is overkill and a more expensive option than a $10 relay (capacity 40 amps.) You don't buy a front loader to move a shovelfull of soil -- you can do it it with a shovel.
And the relay is simpler, more available, cheap to carry a spare, more quickly swapped out (plug and play wire harness socket,) etc. Oftentimes we sailors choose a more difficult solution, when the simplest one meets the same end.
As to whether to do the mod or not, YBYC -- I wouldn't suggest a sailor not do it if s/he decides to. What I said was "Weigh the pros/cons." -- i.e. YBYC. An alternate approach might be, ignore the cons and just do it. One of the pros I forgot to mention was longer preheat switch life (not pumping 18 amps thru it.)
I can formulate scenarios where using a relay is "better" than using a starter solenoid. And the same for when OEM (same lee shore condition) would be better than doing the mod at all. e.g., one of the additional failure points kicking in - the additional fuse blew, fuse and terminal connections are corroded, slave relay/solenoid has failed -- or unknowingly burned out a 10-volt glow plug with the 14+ full volts. Or the guest crew member sensed the danger and so has been holding the preheat on for a minute to help you out just in case. Due to Murphy's Law kicking in, in that event I'd rather have the simpler system.
JTSO.
If we approach any situation where 10 seconds may mean life or death, a safer approach might be to start the engine and let it idle just in case. I've put ego aside and done that many times.
The mod has become accepted because it's been around so long -- but I suspect that the 1st-ever mod was not totally thought thru to the final result (no doubt thought that the glow plugs should receive 14+ volts?)
Let's approach this another way --
Suppose Universal built in a circuit that limits the voltage at the plugs to their design 10 volts. And that one of the forum came up with the idea, "Hey, I'm going to eliminate the circuit so I can shoot 14 volts at my glow plugs and save 5-10 seconds of finger time."
How many would jump on the bandwagon with, "Hey that's a GREAT idea! Go for it. I'm going to do that also."?
Or would the consensus be, "I wouldn't, but YBYC."?
Again, weigh the pros/cons of the mod vs OEM.
As to the other, I don't immediately see any benefit to the starter solenoid over a relay -- but am listening for some.
Cheers
Ken
Not to further muddy the waters, but I don't know why everyone is saying that the mod will result in the glow plugs being subjected to 14 volts (and might fail prematurely as a result). That might be the case if the engine was running and spinning the alternator, but it's not. A battery bank with an 18 amp load on it will put out on the order of 12.6 - 12.8v. The actual voltage at the glow plug will be slightly less. Even if I am off by a few-tenths of a volt, I fail to see how the glow plugs will be exposed to 14v.
Just a thought
Quote from: Lance Jones on February 22, 2016, 09:57:08 AM
One of my biggest reasons for doing my modification is for safety. I either have been in, or have seen others is situations where a few seconds difference in starting an engine could mean the difference in being washed onto a lee shore or being rammed by some other vessel.
Lance, the solenoid mod is only of benefit when the engine is COLD. For me, that means when I arrive at my slip or wake up in the morning to start the engine. The engine stays warm for several hours after motoring to sail. What is the likelihood of being in a critical situation with a cold engine and only 5-10 seconds to spare vs. the likelihood of the solenoid circuit failing regardless of engine temperature?
Quote from: J_Sail on February 22, 2016, 11:38:43 AM
Not to further muddy the waters, but I don't know why everyone is saying that the mod will result in the glow plugs being subjected to 14 volts (and might fail prematurely as a result). That might be the case if the engine was running and spinning the alternator, but it's not. A battery bank with an 18 amp load on it will put out on the order of 12.6 - 12.8v. The actual voltage at the glow plug will be slightly less. Even if I am off by a few-tenths of a volt, I fail to see how the glow plugs will be exposed to 14v.
Has anyone with the mod ever experienced premature glow plug failure? Unless the problem has occurred, we may be worrying about something that is more theoretical than real.
Just a thought
Could you see a scenario where 14v could happen being tied to the dock and a shore charger (when it's most needed)?
Ok, say 12.8v on the reserve battery, nearly 30% over voltage-ing the plugs -- a good idea? Maybe a chart taped to the cockpit of finger time versus battery voltage (just to make it more difficult and add in another factor? It is an issue - Kubota actually has a time limiter in the tractor preheat circuit (- unsure how many seconds it's set for.)
kk
Quote from: J_Sail on February 22, 2016, 11:38:43 AM
Not to further muddy the waters, but I don't know why everyone is saying that the mod will result in the glow plugs being subjected to 14 volts (and might fail prematurely as a result). That might be the case if the engine was running and spinning the alternator, but it's not. A battery bank with an 18 amp load on it will put out on the order of 12.6 - 12.8v. The actual voltage at the glow plug will be slightly less. Even if I am off by a few-tenths of a volt, I fail to see how the glow plugs will be exposed to 14v.
Has anyone with the mod ever experienced premature glow plug failure? Unless the problem has occurred, we may be worrying about something that is more theoretical than real.
Just a thought
J_Sail, you are probably correct, I'll leave it to others to debate the technical issues, but it does introduce more complexity for very little, if any benefit.
Great responses. Surprising amount to consider.
My preference is to keep it simple.
So I'm going to hold off doing the mod and, assuming that the existing glow switch & starter switch are original, I have just ordered a spare start/glow button from CD (and the Red & Black Boots)
Thanks for the input guys.
Paul
Quote from: mark_53 on February 22, 2016, 12:30:04 PM
J_Sail, you are probably correct, I'll leave it to others to debate the technical issues, but it does introduce more complexity for very little, if any benefit.
I've had the solenoid in since I sketched that wiring diagram, IIRC, 1999. My plugs are just fine.
One thing I may have missed in this back and forth: The WIRING. The amps going up to the cockpit panel and back. Big amps in small wires. That's the main reason I put the solenoid on my boat.
Heck, kids, if you can run a sailboat with its complicated rigging and stuff, one would think a skipper could count to
ten and let the button out. Our Mark I cockpits are so small, one person has an issue getting back there to push the button, a real stretch to say a crew member would do it to "help out." Truly stretching it.
What's been very GOOD about this thread is that it points out the advantages and (potential but I believe imagined) disadvantages of doing it.
Your boat, your choice. :D
Guys : Sorry about all the confusion.
With the solenoid modification, when the switch on the engine instrument panel is turned ON the solenoid allow the current to pass to the glow plugs. When the switch on the engine panel is turned OFF the flow of current thru the solenoid stops!!
As far as any increased voltage problems goes :
1. I used # 6 marine grade wire in the new solenoid circuit in my M25XP engine
2. I usually engaged the glow plugs for 10-12 seconds
3. I installed that mod when the engine had about 1000hrs
4. When the engine was replaced (for other reasons) the original glow plugs were still installed
5. The mod was used for about 4000 hrs - that's a bunch of starts!!!!
The solenoid modification was a GREAT mod for the M25 and M25XP engine
On my boat the glow plug circuit ran through the start keyswitch. Before I installed the solenoid my keyswitch had failed. I'm not positive but I would wager that the reason it failed was the large amperage it was forced to carry for the glow plugs.
Caio: I doubt that the amperage was the reason for your key switch to fail. That's the reason for the solenoid mod, because all that length (16ft?) of only #10 or #12 wire hardily delivered any amperage when it finally arrived at the glow plugs!!
My factory key switch failed within the first year I had the boat and the engine only had 75 hrs!
I found that that plastic housed switch had a weep hole, but it was installed so the hole was up. Don't know if that was the problem or just a poor grade switch. The new replacement metal housed switch is still going strong and is on the second engine (first engine wore out @5000 hrs)
A thought
The current for 3 glow plugs has been estimated at 18amp, which sounds right. 18 amps is on the high side for either a ignition key switch or a low-grade pushbutton, so it would not surprise me if it contributed to early contact failure, particularly when you add the corrosive marine environment. The two factors can be synergistic in a bad way, so it's reasonably likely that the addition of a properly rated quality relay (or continuous duty starter solenoid) would result in overall higher reliability.
Not meaning to beat this to death, but there's facts and opinions being thrown out that I can't pass up on. :D
[\quote]
because all that length (16ft?) of only #10 or #12 wire hardily delivered any amperage when it finally arrived at the glow plugs
[/quote]
Q.? Were the C34 harnesses 12 ga for the preheat circuit? Maybe I'm off here, but the 1984 M-25 has a 10 ga for the #5 panel feed, #1 panel ground, and #2 preheat wires. The remainder were 16 ga., including the #3 solenoid "S wire" (not good at all.) I wouldn't think CTY/Seaward would decrease the size of the #2 harness wire for M-25s or XPS installed in a C34.
Nevertheless, fact-based and not opinion-based -- the preheat wire run itself isn't the culprit. It's 0.6v drop, so it can be additive to something else that's wrong. Yes a crappy preheat switch can be an issue.
Opinion:
It should be replaced with a quality watertight switch, like a 30-amp or 60-amp diesel equip switch with weather cover, such as: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_21065_21065
I'm open to hearing dissention/corrections about the below facts re: the glow plug discussion.
Fact:
A 16' harness (I believe the OEMs were a bit shorter) is 32' round trip. Amperage is constant -- it doesn't drop, voltage drops. 3 plugs at ~6 amps each -- so the voltage loss is 0.59 volts, say 0.6 volts. If your reserve battery is properly up to turn the starter, let's say 80% state of charge or, for sake of a starting point, maybe 12.6v (loaded,) the glow plugs (theoretically) receive about 12 volts (2v ABOVE their design of 10 volts.)
Fact:
But, adding in some losses for "a few" connections -- the starter solenoid "B" terminal, key switch terminals and contact, preheat switch terminals and contact, glo plug nut, glo plug ground to block, (4) gummy bear bullet terminals, engine ground, selector switch, battery posts -- that's say 20? connections. My count could be off -- Amazing how many isn't it? Even at 0.1v drop per each connection (probably high) - that's 10.0v -- still at the glow plug design voltage. But one does need to preheat for more than what seems to be the desirable 5-10 seconds.
Opinion:
Of course the gummy bear connections V drops SHOULD be removed from this discussion anyway, otherwise the preheat mod is bizarre. JTSO - some may disagree and that's ok.
Fact:
Adding the mod, eliminates the wire V drop (0.6v) and 6 connection voltage drops -- But adds 8 more connections (2 solenoid terminals, solenoid switch itself, 2 fuse terminals, 2 fuse plug-in blades.) It also potentially makes troubleshooting just slightly more complicated (an additional circuit added, an electric switch, additional fuse -- e.g., what's faulty? the preheat switch and harness wire circuit?; the solenoid/relay circuit?; which fuse?)
Fact:
Solenoids do very very occasionally fail -- I recently went 'round with a customer with a no-start XPB with about 300 hrs on it. I "pleaded" with him to test the preheat/fuel pump solenoid. "Naw, it isn't that....," and so he tried troubleshooting/replacing about everything else. Well it was and so wasted 3 days and 5 trips to the boat and NAPA, and bought an unnecessary fuel pump before he replaced the solenoid and..... Vroooooom.
Fact:
KISS eliminates unnecessary failure (even unlikely failure) points.
Aside (and Opinion):
The stock XPB preheat/fuel pump solenoid is crap (OEM from Kubota) and the coil is easily burned out.
Replace it with a quality solenoid before it's too late you have an XPB. JTSO - others may disagree and that's ok.
Opinion:
If there's an issue, the OEM is more-easily traced thu and troubleshot? at each point in the sequence. JTSO - others may disagree and that's ok.
Opinion:
The preheat mod is in some ways a bandaid -- it does allow owners to ignore other upgrades and maintenance -- eliminating the gummy bear plugs, moving the engine negative cable, properly terminating the harness wires, and maintaining the harness (corrosion, etc.) I bet there may be more than one boat out there with the glow plug mod that still has the panel gummy bear plug? Or even the engine gummy bear plug?
Opinion:
:donno: maybe my finger isn't as tender as others'. Is it irony that sailors appreciate the SLO LIFE and simplicity, but want to add a more-complicated system in the quest to save 20-30 seconds time? We're talking seconds here, not minutes! :lol:
But YBYC of course, and if you want to do that (JTSO) a $10 40-amp plug-in, easily replaced in emergency, continuous-duty relay beats out a @20 hard-wired, continuous-duty, starter solenoid. JTSO - others may disagree and that's ok.
Fact:
Start problems are oftentimes more related to no starter spin, than they are to no preheat.
Opinion:
Everything related to that should be corrected first.
Opinion:
Better and best -- are loaded words when it comes to boats because it's all personal preference, but -- maybe I'll call it a more "logical"? mod -- would be to install a slave relay (or solenoid if you must) tripped by the start switch "S wire," to energize the starter solenoid. I'd be more concerned with getting full voltage at my starter motor solenoid, than the desire to over-voltage the glow plugs to save a few seconds at the dock or mooring. And doing the 101 mods to the harness/gummy bears will get you more mileage in the long run than the glow plug mod, and will eliminate the need for the mod. JTSO - another may disagree and that's ok.
Cheers,
Ken
Ken- just thought i'd let you know that the Forum doesn't pay writers by the word. :rolling :idea:
LOL. Ok, so sometimes I've been accused of verbosity. Not this time tho - someone mentioned appreciation of "rich content" - just thought I'd top off the coffers! LOL
Oh would it be that I could convey complete facts in a 30 second piece like the media gives us to (es)chew on. They know we can't comprehend anything more in depth than that. d:-[
kk
I'l ask today's dumb one: JTSO ??? WDTM?
Joint Technical Standard Order
paul
Quote from: britinusa on February 27, 2016, 04:35:22 AM
I'l ask today's dumb one...
This may help in translation:
http://www.netlingo.com/acronyms.php][url]http://www.netlingo.com/acronyms.php (http://[url)[/url]
Sorry Paul-- nope. "Just This Sailor's Opinion"
Quote from: Noah on February 27, 2016, 08:53:44 AM
Sorry Paul-- nope. "Just This Sailor's Opinion"
Cousin to "JOSO"
Ken : I read your epistle and agree with Noah.
For your data base - Seaward didn't get involved with the Catalina electrical panels until late 1990 or 1991. By that time there were over 1000 C34 hulls produced (and an equal number of C30s & C36s). The company that produced the original engine and main electrical panel was "Bristol Marine". I had numerous conversations with their engineer Dave Weller over Hi- Temp alarms. (and the lack of !!)
In the spring of 1996 I finally installed the "Glow plug solenoid modification" and wrote it up for the Mainsheet tech notes. I had already installed the "wiring harness upgrade" in about 1992.
I do recall trying to start the engine with 10 seconds of glow plug ON or slightly more and the engine not starting (on the first turn). If I kept cranking for a couple of more seconds - of course most any diesel will start (if it has decent compression).
I surmised that glow plugs were cheaper than a new starter so I welcomed the addition of the solenoid and not keeping the glow plugs engaged for 30 seconds.
I immediately noted that with the solenoid and the glow plug #6 wire length of less than 2 feet, 10 seconds was more than enough pre heat time to start the engine with only a "tap" on the starter.
A few thoughts
Ron,
Thanks for clarifying when Seaward got involved -- YES! mine was actually a Bristol panel (with a Hi temp alarm.)
But my point was merely that in 1894 the preheat was 10 awg, so I doubt that anyone (Bristol, CTY, Seaward or XYZ) would reduce it to 12 awg for the C-34s.
I wholeheartedly agree with you that if someone can't deal with 30 seconds preheat time then the mod works around that. That's a personal choice that one has to make, but it's unnecessary to operate our engines (i.e., following the Operator's Manual,)
(//)
But "glow plugs versus a new starter" is a false choice. Let's ignore that the plugs are 10 volt. So that others decide based on facts, the choice is "a new starter versus following the manual." Is that a decision most owners need to weigh? What's wrong with just following instructions? :donno:
The parallel choice is -- to follow instructions, or shortcutting them with a more complicated system and potential failure points. If saving a half minute is more important than KISS, then again the mod is probably the way to go.
Tongue in cheek:
How about other mods and fixes for those who want to work around instructions? A system to 'dump' the muffler in case we crank more than 30 seconds? That would save the time opening and closing a petcock - a lot more than a half minute. Or a fail-safe fuel cut off to shut 'er down down if she overheats? Or an over-RPM watcher? Then we'd need to follow even fewer operating instructions.
(another) Fact:
The capacity of 10 awg is 51 amps vs. the 18 amp load. The drop is 0.04 v -- irrelevant when using a 10-volt glow plug and equates to 10.02 seconds finger time, versus 10 seconds using 6 awg or 8 awg. Not a problem using larger than 10 awg -- but like the mod itself -- just not necessary.
Cheers,
kk
Quote from: Noah on February 27, 2016, 08:53:44 AM
Sorry Paul-- nope. "Just This Sailor's Opinion"
IMHO, that's OK.
:D
Paul