I plan to install a marine AC unit on my C34, I am a live aboard year round and need a unit that has both AC and heat. I had reviewed all the installations on this site, there are a number of location choices to include Nav locker, V berth and starboard side setee. I am looking at a single 16K BTU unit with ducting to V berth, salon and aft cabin.
I have reviewed the product offerings and feedback from a variety of companies to include:
Dometic
Merimaidl
Flagship
MarinAire
Webasto
Ocean Breeze
I am looking for some input on unit selection and installation location.
I installed the Dometic 16K unit in the V-Berth just a month ago.
Biggest challenge was routing duct. I installed the unit in the V-Berth, Ran the Raw Water from a T in the Head Cupboard and installed a new Thru hull with sea cock in the V-Berth. The Pump is also in the V-Berth.
I installed duct from the unit, down the stbd side into the back of the hanging locker, then up through the hanging locker shelf where I installed a triangular box (2 sides, the bulkhead making the 3rd) That box has a vent into the v-berth and there is a vent cut through the cabin-v-berth bulkhead.
It works really well, but does not pump any cool air into the aft berth. Choice is to figure out how to run duct from the V-berth back to the aft berth or (our plan) to have a pair of fans sucking cabin air into and blowing air out of the aft berth.
I had a Dometic in my previous boat for 10 years, worked flawlessly.
Oh, I installed the AC controller at the Nav Station and the Electronics box in the V-Berth.
I also made a return air grill that fits on the face of the V-Berth bulkhead beneath the v-Berth extension cushion.
Hope that helps.
Paul
Paul,
Which Dometic unit? Cruiseair or Marine Air Systems and which model?
I am looking at duct routing options and it does seem to be a challenge to get air to the aft cabin. I found the link that showed routing ductwork through the port side setee into the Nav locker through the head into the aft cabin. This allowed air not only to the aft cabin but the head as well. Do you think the blower has enough power to push air this route?
Do you have any pictures of your installation?
V/R
For your location, reverse cycle is useless in the winter. The electric coil heat Ocean Breeze sells works great. When I was living aboard in Pax River, I had to supplement with an oil filled radiator type heater that stayed on constantly. Kept the boat in the mid 50's. Home from work turn the OB on and the cabin was a toasty 68-70 in a few minutes. My boat has 2 units, 6K in the V berth and 12K for the rest of the boat. The small one is dieing, will be replaced this spring. It was several years old when I got the boat in 2000, can't complain about over 15 years of service. Ocean Breeze makes a good product and are very helpful on the phone. The Thermostat for the newer 12K unit failed. Called them up, they asked if it was digital or capiliary tube. When I said digital, they said they would be happy to sell me a new one for over $100, but if it was his boat he would replace it with any home digital thermostat. Found one at Walmart for about $40. Been working great ever since. Haven't been shopping in a while, but I think OB is slightly less $$ than the other units.
Ken,
I looked at the Ocean Breeze, very similar to Flagship. Both these units have electric heating element which has many pros for liveaboard in the MD area, although this year feels almost like we're skipping winter.
What is the noise level like and is the fan speed variable?
Do you think a single 16K unit could do the job?
From all the research I've done it seems moving air in the boat has a major impact on quality-of-life.
V/R
I installed an Ocean Breeze 16,500 four seasons ago. Works well enough, but it does take a while to cool the boat down. I installed it under the v-berth and ran duct to v-berth, forward salon bulkhead, under the nav table, head, and the aft berth. Also have fans mounted in the v-berth and main salon. Something that you should consider is your choice of sleeping cabins. I use the v-berth so sound proofing was necessary, took some sound proofing panels and fine tuning to get the sound level the way I wanted it. It's very quiet now. The v-berth and main salon cools well, takes much more time to cool if the aft duct is open and the aft cabin door is left open.
FWIW I think that shipping caused some issues namely a damaged coolant feed and out of balance compressor. Ocean Breeze handled the problems very much to my satisfaction.
Jim
I replaced the 12,000 BTU Reverse Cycle HVAC unit on my 1987 C34 when I purchased her three years ago with a 16,000 BTU Dometic unit. Apparently, a previous owner had removed the holding tank from under the port couch, installed a bladder type holding tank in the wet locker/nav table area and installed the HVAC unit.
There are pro and cons to this location, and I'm not sure I would have chosen it if I'd originally installed the system. But it works great and I have no regrets. Since the unit is centrally located I have two vents installed, also in this same locker. One points towards the galley/aft cabin, and the other services the main cabin and V-berth. Again, this was the original installation configuration. All I did was replace the old unit with a larger one.
How would I improve on this? Run a 4" duct to the Head/shower & on to the Aft Cabin for starters, and install an inline blower on this duct to help move the air. I'd also install add a duct headed to the V-berth. All this is easier said than done. There is good way to run duct in this boat without losing valuable storage space. I've read that running the duct under the floor in the bilge area might work. I haven't studied this, but this would certainly be a viable option to keep from losing storage lockers.
The bottom line for me is that I have an awesome AC unit in the summer and more than adequate heating in the winter. But most of the time we just use a small space heater in the winter. One thing to remember is that reverse cycle units will only work well if the water temp doesn't get too cold in the winter or too hot in the summer. I just happen to be in an area (coastal GA) where the water temps work well both ways.
A picture of my installation is attached.
It is very helpful to get performance info on 3-4 years of operation, the knowledge base of the people here is outstanding.
Hugh,
What brand by Dometic, Cruiseair or Marine Aire Systems?
I am leaning towards installing in the Nav locker or starboard side fwd setee, they seem to be a good locations for ducting the air both fwd and aft. I know it is giving up storage space but I'm inclined not to lose the holding tank. I've been told the V berth is also a good location but that is a long run for the duct to the head & aft berth. I think your idea of an inline blower makes good sense.
Jim,
I read the post on the V berth installation, seems like a long run to the aft cabin. What size duct are you using?
Do either of your installations have good ventilation for the unit or is the supply air vent work to get heat out of where it is installed?
I went with the Dometic ECD16K-HV A/C RETROFT.
http://www.go2marine.com/product/384864F/dometic-air-conditioning-kit-w-reverse-cycle-heat-ecd16k-hv-a-c-retrofit-kit-410a.html
Ed,
You also asked about the return or air intake. You can see from the picture I posted that that return is the large cutout in the center. Cleaning the filter is very easy. Just unscrew the grill cover and remove the filter. I think the negative to any installation of a large unit is going to be the sound. The unit itself doesn't make that much noise, but there's a lot of air moving and it can be a bit annoying. The fan on this unit has 3 or 4 speeds and I always run it on the lowest speed.
I knew an owner of another C34 and the AC was installed under the v-Berth. It was so noisy that he and his wife would not sleep there. Then the issue was moving the air to the main and aft cabins. His installation sacrificed a large part of the hanging locker on the starboard side in the V-berth.
Honestly, I don't know if there's a perfect answer to the installation of a HVAC unit in this earlier model C34. Any installation is going to sacrifice some storage space, which isn't ample to start with. BUT, any installation is better than no AC!!
Quote from: Hugh17 on January 03, 2016, 04:47:08 PM
I went with the Dometic ECD16K-HV A/C RETROFT.
http://www.go2marine.com/product/384864F/dometic-air-conditioning-kit-w-reverse-cycle-heat-ecd16k-hv-a-c-retrofit-kit-410a.html
Same here.
paul
You can put the unit under the head sink with the return grill coming from the aft cabin. Run a duct along port side to v-berth. Run duct to main salon, exit near nav station. Small ducts into head and aft cabin (aft cabin optional, as the air is sucked into aft cabin from return duct. Either keep aft cabin door open, or did what I did, cut out bottom panel and put louvers in that section for air flow.
Ed,
Yes, it is a long run to the aft cabin. Reason for the slower cool down back there. It's not that important to me, I use the v-berth. When I have over night guests. First cool down the rest of the boat, then open the door and ac-vent and cool the aft cabin. It works. The duct work is 4". Here is my invoice from when I bought the AC unit, sorry about the cut&paste. It does include every thing used except material to build a shelf to mount the AC, sound proofing, and the wiring and circuit breaker.
Quantity Item Description Unit Price Amount
1.00 OB16CH 16,700 BTU Self Contained Marine AC Unit 1,595.00 1,595.00
(HORIZONTAL)
1.00 Plenum include Plenum (CUSTOM), In addition to three
standard 4" Collars, ONE 2" (for head)
1.00 Heat Electric Heat 159.00 159.00
1.00 Kit Complete Installation Kit (DELUXE, all bronze parts) 548.00 548.00
1.00 Grill Teak Grill, include aluminum box, and 4" Collar 72.00 72.00
1.00 Rotaire include 2" Diameter Round Closable Grill
10.00 Ducting include 2" Diameter Fire Proof
warranty included 3 Year Limited Extended Warranty
It wasn't a straight forward job. Needed many decisions on where to mount things and what to give up (storage). All and all I'm pleased with the finished product.
Jim
using the on line tools available, 16K is about right for our size boat. The ocean breeze only has a one speed fan, I generally just let it run constantly to keep the air circulating.
Thanks everyone for your comments and feedback. I'm going with a 16K unit but am trying to decide between a flagship and ocean breeze unit, the reason for these making the short list is the Electric heating element. I'm also trying to decide where to locate the unit, I'd like to keep it centrally located so I'm trying to decide between under the starboard forward settee or the hanging locker aft of the Nav station. The challenge will be running the duct to the aft cabin. Any advice from members with current installations would be appreciated.
Ed,
I installed the 16K Flagship 3-4 summers ago. We enjoy the electric heat both in the spring and fall, but also when my boat is hauled for the winter. When doing small tasks on the hard the heat is a wlecome addition.
I built a shelf and installed under the V-berth. There is more vibration then I would like and I have tried numerous rubber type pads under the pan. We sleep in the V-berth from April thru Novenber unless we have a guests and we then retire to the aft cabin.
My original plan was to instll it unter the forward settee and glassed in a shelf for it. On my 5 time measuring I determined that the 16K unit would not fit in the settee opening. I needed less than 1/2". I could have cut back on lip holding the wood cover for the access, but went with the v-berth.
We use the locker by the nav table with roll out shelving and did not want to give up this valuable (to us) space.
I ran duct work to just above the shelf and under the galley sink. with a fan the aft berth is livable.
I have a total of three vents, the one by the galley sink and two into the main cabin. I originally had one into the v-berth, but found that while it got down to 55 degrees it did a better job in the main cabin and the v-berth also cooled down. With our selves or guests we normally never close off the v-berth.
Good luck,
Steve
Do you have a.left side discharge?
Regarding fwd settee; Is the height issue because of the box for the electric heat
Do you have any pictures of your installation?
Ed,
The issue I had with the forward settee was the width or the unit . I should have made a wood or cardboard box of the full size to begin with and I would have seen that the size was close , but 1/2" off. Who would have thought that there would be any issue on a boat.
All of my ducting is on the starboard side, my discharge is in the v-birth locker and is 7" above the water line. Isued my salt water foot pump
near the galley sink for my input.
For my v-birth install I made a shelf in glassed it in. I mounted the thermostat in the nave table area.
Steve
QuoteThere is more vibration then I would like and I have tried numerous rubber type pads under the pan.
Ed,
I had more vibration then I would like when I installed my Ocean Breeze AC. I called the excellent factory support and got instructions on rebalancing the unit. They said it got bumped in shipping. Don't remember the instructions exactly but it was simply loosen then retighten the compressor mounting screws when the unit was running. Made a real difference. Might be worth a call to Flagship.
Jim
Steve
I've been interested in the Flagship unit for the same reason as you. Electric heat when on the hard... What made you choose the Flagship over the similar Ocean Breeze unit? Also, does the Flagship have a quiet compressor? I've read the info on their website and it looks like a well made unit. But I would like to know what you have experienced as a real time user of the unit.
Thanks
Roc,
I have the same question regarding Ocean Breeze vs Flagship, both units have electric heat instead of reverse cycle. Seems that will be an advantage of not using the compressor in the heat mode and as you stated being able to use it while on the hard. I just got a recent quote for both, OC $2000 vs FS $2500, including install kit for both. FS website does made it sound like they focus on quality and EXPANSION VALVES VS. CAPILLARY TUBES, any AC experts out there have a comment?
It would seem a $500 price delta needs justification but when I talked to FS and asked he gave me attitude saying read the web site. Customer service is a very important aspect of any vendor I work with because I deal with customers each and every day.
Jim,
You seem happy with your OB unit, how long have you had it?
Steve,
The 16.7K OB unit is 13 in W vs 16.5K FS 14.6 W, this could make install in the fwd starboard settee possible per Jim's input.
Still going through analysis paralysis trying to decide. Also found a 3yr old 16K OB unit on EBay with an opening bid of $545. Very stingy with my boat bucks.
QuoteYou seem happy with your OB unit, how long have you had it?
Ed,
I've had the AC for 4 seasons. I am happy with the Ocean Breeze unit. Don't think I'd do anything different if I did it over again. I do like the electric heat. I did find it desirable to install companionway doors (Zorcor). Using the drop boards to keep the cool in was a pain.
Jim
Jim,
Thanks for the info, I think the Ocean Breeze units make good sense. I've been able to find a good deal of positive comments and the idea of real heat...
I found a post with a pic of companionway doors, looks nice.
http://images50.fotki.com/v1525/photos/3/31944/76563/Hatchdoors1-vi.jpg
Been out of the country, chiming in late. IIRC the OB units can be ordered with the output ducts fore/aft or on either side. I like the Zarcor doors, but didn't like the price. I got a half sheet of 1/4" plexiglass from lowes and made a drop in window for the companionway. Keeps heat/cool in the cabin, but if wanted lets light in also. I have a sunbrella flap that covers it if shade/privacy in needed.
Ken,
I appreciate the input on the OB unit, they were very responsive and helpful when I contacted them. I did see the unit was available in multiple configurations, the one I select will depend on where it is located..
The plexiglass sounds like a great idea, thanks for passing it along. Any chance of getting a picture?
I also had a solid Plexiglas insert for my companionway and I loved it. It was great to have light in the cabin when it was raining or cold and I used it as my full time hatch with a hasp on the top for a lock. Like Ken, we also had the sunbrella cover that we could even use at night at the dock for privacy without the Plexiglas in place then if you were going in and out of the cabin, you could just flip the cover out of the way. It worked out very well for us and we never used the wood hatch boards.
Mike
Sorry no pictures. If I remember will take one next month when I go to charge the batteries. Easy to make, lay the hatch boards down, trace around them and cut. Had a couple 'Sail" decals left from the boat show, put them on after a guest almost walked through it.
For what it's worth - I installed a Cruisair Turbo 16k BTU in the forward starboard settee. The unit has a sound-shield around the compressor, which significantly reduces compressor noise. This was an import issue for me since my wife would not put with running a noisy HVAC unit on in the boat. The only significant noise this system makes
I use the system mostly for cooling in the summer and works great and cools the boat down remarkably fast. We use it for heat only in the Spring / Fall.
I had intended to run duct work to the aft cabin, but have decided not to bother since the system cools the whole boat down, even in super hot days in Maryland. In the fall & spring when we run the heat, it also warms the aft cabin up nice as well.
Currently I only have 2 vents - which basically vent out of box on the top of the hanging locker in the V-berth where the duct work runs. The vent facing the main cabin is a larger rectangle vent and the v-berth is a small round vent. I am planning on putting in another smaller round vent below the drawer in the v-berth solely for heating purposes. Obviously heat rises - so having all the vents 5 feet above the cabin sole does not help to keep the floor warm. But the main issue is that the sensor for the thermostat is located at the return vent which is at the same level as the sole. Consequently, the thermostat does not get an accurate or adequate reading of the ambient temperature in the cabin and thinks the boat is colder than it really feels. I've compensated for this with finding the right set point, but the better solution is to have a vent closer to the sole.
If it isn't too late....
We have the Marinaire 16k. We mounted it in the V-berth. Ducting WAS an issue. As with most, I ran one 6" line through the hanging locker. I ran a T inside the locker vertically to vents for the main cabin and V-berth. That line continued into the stbd settee with a vent at the base that also blows into the main cabin.
I also ran, from a T in the V-berth, a line of 4" flex that ran under the portside dresser, into the port settee, into the top area over the holding tank, into the hanging locker, behind the head and into the aft cabin. It does get air back there. However, I am adding a 4" duct fan with an automatic sensor that detects air movement to turn it on. That will significantly INCREASE the amount of air getting back there.