We had a loft rep come to the boat today to measure up for new sails for Eximius.
He said that most sailors are moving towards Loose footed sails.
Then when he saw the reef blocks on the stbd side of the boom, he suggested that we should go with the bolt rope in boom sail.
Then I mentioned that we wanted the zipup type sail cover and he moved back to the idea of loose footed sail.
Loose or bolt in the boom?
Paul
Quote from: britinusa on November 01, 2015, 04:03:09 PM
We had a loft rep come to the boat today to measure up for new sails for Eximius.
He said that most sailors are moving towards Loose footed sails.
Then when he saw the reef blocks on the stbd side of the boom, he suggested that we should go with the bolt rope in boom sail.
Then I mentioned that we wanted the zipup type sail cover and he moved back to the idea of loose footed sail.
Loose or bolt in the boom?
Paul
LOOSE! The reef system is irrelevant - wonder if he actually knows his stuff?
Do you have the slugged in-boom slugged outhaul? Suggest looking at a track on the boom/block system.
kk
How is your outhaul workin' these days?
Ken- It seems by the all caps "LOOSE" that you have a strong opinion on the subject. Curious: what are the advantages of a loose-footed main over traditional/factory set-up on the C34?
Quote from: Noah on November 01, 2015, 05:53:23 PM
Ken- It seems by the all caps "LOOSE" that you have a strong opinion on the subject. Curious: what are the advantages of a loose-footed main over traditional/factory set-up on the C34?
Not as strong an opinion as for electrical and cooling pump issues. :rolling
Better sail shape at the foot.
There's more adjustability with proper control lines sewn into the sail to adjust the "shelf".
kk
Ken is absolutely right, a loose footed main gives you better sail shape and is easier to adjust the shape of the sail.
Quote from: Gary Brockman on November 01, 2015, 06:36:15 PM
Ken is absolutely right, a loose footed main gives you better sail shape and is easier to adjust the shape of the sail.
That's the kind of response I was looking for: Advantages
Any 'Cons' ?
Not sure if the reefing blocks are original, but there are a two matching pairs of blocks & tracks on the stbd side of the aft end of the boom. The current sail might be original! It has the Catalina badge (California) by the tack as well as the Catalina 34 Logo & Numbers on the sail. The edge of the leech is splitting open and is clearly stretched, other than a few holes that have bandaids over them the sail is in remarkable shape for 27 years old. It has 2 large metal cringles in the leach for reefing and a third smaller cringle higher up, that has reef ties locked in for a 3rd reef.
The company made a mistake in the quote, it was doubled, I pointed that out and the rep confirmed the mistake, but as they had not quoted for the new mainsail cover, it has to be redone entirely. I'll be calling them today to get the bottom line.
Paul
Jon,
I've experienced no negatives.
Make sure they install dog bones in the luff cringles. If they ask "what's that" find a different loft! LOL.
kk
Are you referring to 'Jack Lines' attached to the lower sail slugs that allows the cringle to be lower than the top of the mast gate Screw.
Never heard them to referred to as Dog Bones.
Seemingly unusual descriptive names never fails to cause a smile on my face :D
Recently on the local news, the reporter repeatedly referred to the high tide (Spring Tide) as 'King Tides' which I had never heard of before, the Irony is that the term appears to be common in the USA but I'm guessing it's used because the tide is 'above the rest'. However for the USA to use such an Imperial title over the more natural Springs and Neaps :? :?
Our existing main does not have 'Dog Bones' or 'Jack Lines' on the lower sail slugs. Our previous boat, Catalina 250, did!
Another pointer to the sails possibly being original (1987)
Paul
Hmmmmm
I thought I had covered that in a prev post. Maybe it was on the 30 forum.
Google mainsail dog bone and see what images pop up. A ss ring on either side with webbing in between, thru the cringle. Makes it a lot easier to hook a reef hook or downhaul or Cunningham.
If not I'll find my pics tonite.
Here's CD's mainsail jack line.
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/feature/34/mainsail-jack-line.cfm (http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/feature/34/mainsail-jack-line.cfm)
Paul
Jon,
http://mrbarth.com/webimages/cars-stacked.jpg
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/attachment.php?attachmentid=925&stc=1&d=1132338297
http://img.trailersailor.com/158/2014/140547088848.jpg
KK
Here's another alternative for dealing with slugs below the reef point: http://www.mastgates.com/ They also help when covering the sail. I put one of the fixed (with screws) mastgates on my Gloucester 19 and really like it. :thumb:
Decision made.
We ordered the new sails, including a loose footed main. Being made at a local loft 'Super sail Makers' of Fort Lauderdale. We visited their loft yesterday, they will make them in house, so local employees.
They should be ready in early / mid December.
If anyone here has a loose footed main, do you use the standard (original) outhaul on the main?
Paul
Paul,
I have in-mast furling so my main is loose footed. So don't know how your standard outhaul will work. My observation is that sailors that have switched use the outhaul more often trimming the main. Now may be a good time to get the outhaul working well and possibly lead the adjustment to the cockpit.
Jim
Catalina Direct has a replacement outhaul kit to increase the purchase to 20:1, or you can assemble the equivalent yourself. A very useful control to depower your sail quickly.
INMHO, the best "tool to depower" the main is the traveler. Outhaul is for fine tunning. 20:1 is a lot of purchase, maybe overkill.
I think the CD outhaul kit is 10:1.
I intend to take a close look at the current condition of the outhaul: Wire, Shackle, Boom internal lines & sheaves, and their bearing pins.
The clew will be held down to the boom with a webbing/velcro strap inside the Cradle Cover.
Paul
yes, my mistake, 10:1
It's definitely an improvement over the factory 3:1 outhaul. Yes, there are many ways to depower, move the traveler to leeward, loosen the vang, loosen the mainsheet, tighten the Cunningham and reef, whatever one prefers.
Quote from: Craig Illman on November 05, 2015, 01:39:13 PM
yes, my mistake, 10:1
It's definitely an improvement over the factory 3:1 outhaul. Yes, there are many ways to depower, move the traveler to leeward, loosen the vang, loosen the mainsheet, tighten the Cunningham and reef, whatever one prefers.
Paul,
Although you can certainly use the current slugged car - I do w/ my loose footed main. But a bb car/track is nicer. Harken has a system, so does Garhauer. The GhM has purchase, so you leave the 3:1 add the car, and end up with 6:1. sweet.
I had been working with GhM (I'm a dealer) to come up with a system very much like the Harken outhaul car, but the customer went a different direction -- I could pursue if there's a need. I think it could be done to be ordered with or w/o purchase.
Ken
(//)
I'm not a sail trim/ sail power expert. but I'm not sure all the methods mentioned are the 'best" (or "proper") way to depower. Has anyone seen the sail trim charts that a C30 has brethren developed? They are very good.
http://www.sailtrimproducts.com/sail_trim_chart.html
Reefing is IMHO the proper way to depower a main, as less cloth is to the headsail -- depending of course pn how much depowering you need.
kk
Don't want to change this discussion to sail trim 101. Just want to second Ken's recommendation of Don Guillette's sail trim book and guides. I study the book every spring and keep the guides handy when sailing. It's the only book that I don't loan out.
Jim
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 05, 2015, 11:25:34 PM
Although you can certainly use the current slugged car - I do w/ my loose footed main. But a bb car/track is nicer. Harken has a system, so does Garhauer. The GhM has purchase, so you leave the 3:1 add the car, and end up with 6:1. sweet.
I had been working with GhM (I'm a dealer) to come up with a system very much like the Harken outhaul car, but the customer went a different direction -- I could pursue if there's a need. I think it could be done to be ordered with or w/o purchase.
That is a fine, fine way to do it. The internal arrangement has always been problematical, hence the repeated "fixes" needed to make it work.
I also agree with Jim, Don's Sail Trim book is the very best ever written on the subject. You can get it here: http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?51998/ (http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?51998/)
Thanks Stu! Just ordered the book and laminated chart. Maybe I can even get my partner to read it so she can make suggestions when she's at the helm. :thumb:
Quote from: Craig Illman on November 06, 2015, 09:23:42 AM
Thanks Stu! Just ordered the book and laminated chart. Maybe I can even get my partner to read it so she can make suggestions when she's at the helm. :thumb:
Thank's Ken for bringing this to our attention LOL! :rolling
No, seriously Craig -- Not to hijack this thread into one on sail trim, but Don G is also a regular contributor to SBO and he has many posts on sail trim and boat handling in general. Check out his threads when you get a chance -- it will take a long time to get thru them all!!
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index.php?search/28248/
kk
ps. IMHO, increasing depth is not the way to depower the main. Light wind = more belly; heavy weather = a flat sail.
Ken - sorry, yes, you identified Don's book and chart, but it was way easier to order via SBO, instead of directly from Don. I don't think I suggested loosening the outhaul to depower, but to tighten it?
I cruise in the San Juan islands, we try to sail, often motor. Often in the summer, the currents are more significant than the available wind and what wind there may be, dramatically changes every few hundred yards. There are lots of opportunities to fiddle with all available sail controls. I certainly will defer to the racing crowd.
I'm not familiar with Don's guide, but from years of racing I will say that loosening the outhaul is not a good way to depower the main. Slacking the outhaul increases the draft of the sail, which increases lift and drag. Increased drag means the boat will go slower, but increased lift means it will heel just as much.
The draft should be shallow in very light air, deepen as the wind picks up, then be pulled shallow again as the boat picks up speed in heavier air and starts to heel past 12-15 degrees. The reason the draft needs to be shallower in very light air is to maintain laminar flow (air sticks to the front and back of the sail, and stays at the same speed). There was a good thread somewhere about how a bigger jib isn't better in very light air – same principle with mainsail draft.
Unfortunately the outhaul is only effective at controlling the draft on the bottom third of the sail. Sail draft farther up the main is best controlled by bowing the mast forward (increasing backstay tension). Our masts don't bow, so this control is not available to us.
Dumping the traveler has the same effect on the main as heading up a few degrees, and letting out the mainsheet will open the sail and spill air... both effective in the short term, but I agree the correct answer is to reef. If there's more than 90% out front I would change headsails (reef... yayyy roller furling) before thinking about shrinking the main.
Quote from: Alex W on November 09, 2015, 07:08:02 AM
There was a good thread somewhere about how a bigger jib isn't better in very light air – same principle with mainsail draft.
It's a sticky topic right here on the forum.
Quote from: Alex W on November 09, 2015, 07:08:02 AMDumping the traveler has the same effect on the main as heading up a few degrees, and letting out the mainsheet will open the sail and spill air...
Correct. As Don discusses in his book, what this does is change the angle of attack, but using the traveler changes the angle, while letting out the mainsheet changes both the angle and the sail trim, not always a desired approach.
As a follow on, SBO shipped the book and charts the same day as ordered. Since they were local, I had them the next day.
I'm going to sleep with them under my pillow and through osmosis, it will be ingrained into my brain by next spring.
Craig
Quote from: Craig Illman on November 09, 2015, 08:57:39 AM
I'm going to sleep with them under my pillow and through osmosis, it will be ingrained into my brain by next spring.
Good technique, worked for me all through college. :D
So, back on track (no pun intended).
Any thing else I should look for when inspecting the outhaul ??
Paul
Paul, have you looked in the wiki?
http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Outhaul_Repair (http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Outhaul_Repair)