I went to the boat yesterday to check on her and refinish the exterior teak. I did my usual bilge inspection and was very surprised to see the bilge filled with about 3-5” of diesel (maybe 2+ gallons?). Yikes! The oil rag/pad I keep in the pan under the engine was also saturated with fuel. I did a quick look around and didn’t notice any obvious sources for the leak. I looked at/felt the fuel filters, bottom of the engine, most of the fuel lines and the bilge area under the head sink. Nothing noticeable. Maybe the leak only occurs while the engine is running?
The boat has been sitting in the slip for the last 2.5 weeks since I’ve been busy with life. The last time I was out (2.5 weeks ago) I changed the fuel filters and went out for a 3 hour sail. I peeked at the filters while sailing and didn’t notice any leaking at the time. However, I did see a clear wet streak on the inside of the hull coming down from behind the fuel tank shelf. I didn’t think much of it at the time and figured it might actually be a water leak from a stanchion or the hull/deck joint since we had had a lot of rain. The streak was gone and/or dried when I looked at that area after discovering fuel in the bilge yesterday. Now I plan to pull the panel in the aft cabin and closely inspect the fuel tank, shelf and fill/vent lines. I wonder if the tank itself could be leaking or perhaps one of the hoses going to the deck/transom.
Per my research here, I’ll do a more methodical search and inspection on Friday including looking at all fittings, fuels lines, fuel pump, fuel filters, etc. I also might try to unscrew the fuel filters and put them back on to be certain I have a good seal and proper fit. Just to be clear – Is it ok to start the engine to look for the leak? I noticed several threads on here suggesting an inspection with the engine running, but this wasn’t intuitive for me.
I soaked up as much of the fuel as I could with oil rags and then pumped the remaining leaked fuel and water out of the bilge with my manual dinghy pump and put it in a container for proper disposal later. I also shut off the fuel via the petcock on top of the fuel tank. I’m not sure what to make of it if there’s more fuel in the bilge when I return on Friday. I suppose it means either something on the engine is leaking or the tank itself is leaking since the petcock is closed.
I realize y’all can’t diagnose a leak from my description above, but I thought I’d post anyway to see if there’s anything obvious I missed or should do as a next step. Thanks!
Sounds like a methodical approach. From what you've described, the fuel tank seems the most likely culprit. Good luck tomorrow.
I know a guy with a C36 and his tank did leak and it leaked into the aft cabin. He really had a mess on his hands. If I recall, he had to replace his mattress.
www.pureayre.com is great for getting rid of any smells.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on June 04, 2015, 09:18:23 AM
From what you've described, the fuel tank seems the most likely culprit.
That's my number one bet too because of the streak I saw on the aft port hull side while looking in from under the head sink. However, I'm hoping it's something really easy and simple like a misfit fuel filter or loose hose clamp. I really don't want to deal with a project the size of replacing the fuel tank.
If it is the fuel tank, I'm not sure how the leaked fuel reached the pan under the engine since it's basically closed on the sides and rear and only open to the bilge via a small drain whole forward.
Quote from: kwaltersmi on June 04, 2015, 09:46:18 AM
If it is the fuel tank, I'm not sure how the leaked fuel reached the pan under the engine since it's basically closed on the sides and rear and only open to the bilge via a small drain whole forward.
Coulda run down a hose or a wire.
Good luck, still.
Chuck,
Shouldn't be an issue running the engine and looking - first get some paper towels or absorbent pads or flat container under the suspected leak spots, could even tape something in place to catch runs. I hate to ask - was your bilge pump working!?!?
ken
Quote from: KWKloeber on June 04, 2015, 10:58:59 AMI hate to ask - was your bilge pump working!?!?
The float switch was up and the pump was switched on on the fuse panel, but it was not pumping when I arrived. I'm assuming the pump automatically shut off because of the diesel. Or it was ruined because of the diesel. I don't know how long the fuel was in the bilge since it had been 2.5 weeks since I had been at the boat.
I turned it off when I was pumping the fuel out of the bilge but then turned it back on afterwards and it made the normal sound but didn't pump much of the water I put in to try it out so I hand pumped the water into a bucket. I'll have to assess the pump more after I've got the fuel leak figured out.
Quote from: kwaltersmi on June 04, 2015, 12:09:50 PM
Quote from: KWKloeber on June 04, 2015, 10:58:59 AMI hate to ask - was your bilge pump working!?!?
The float switch was up and the pump was switched on on the fuse panel, but it was not pumping when I arrived. I'm assuming the pump automatically shut off because of the diesel. Or it was ruined because of the diesel. I don't know how long the fuel was in the bilge since it had been 2.5 weeks since I had been at the boat.
I see no reason why it would shut off. Was just hoping you had it "off" for some reason, and it hadn't pumped a bunch of diesel overboard! The CG frowns on that.
kk
Quote from: KWKloeber on June 04, 2015, 12:15:14 PM
I see no reason why it would shut off.
I think some bilge pumps will not pump oil/diesel to prevent toxic dumps. This is from Rule on some of their pumps: "The pump and solid state water sensing switch are in a single, compact housing. The sophisticated switch senses the dielectric properties of water but will not pump oil."
Quote from: kwaltersmi on June 04, 2015, 01:10:23 PM
Quote from: KWKloeber on June 04, 2015, 12:15:14 PM
I see no reason why it would shut off.
I think some bilge pumps will not pump oil/diesel to prevent toxic dumps. This is from Rule on some of their pumps: "The pump and solid state water sensing switch are in a single, compact housing. The sophisticated switch senses the dielectric properties of water but will not pump oil."
Yes, that's true - but it's the switch that "senses" oil present (i.e., doesn't make contact) on the solid state switches, not the pump itself, and not float switches. If the float-type was "up," I don't see why the pump would shut down.
kk
kwalt : Sounds as though you have a fuel tank leak!
Take off the port side aft cabin panel and inspect the fuel tank and its plywood platform it sets on. Everything should be dry, but I suspect you'll have a wet platform.
Lift the float switch and see how high it must be to have it kick ON the bilge pump. Probably higher than you would think!!
You can run the engine with a fuel leak, but I think you have a static pin hole in the fuel tank.
You might want to recheck for a filter leak. Easy, just wipe a clean paper towel on the bottom and the on the top where the filter should seal. If it's stained you've found it.
You can do the same thing by rubbing a clean paper towel along a fuel line.
A few thoughts
I recently had a leak also. It was one of the fuel lines on the engine. It also leaked under the engine and into the bilge.
I will defer to the far greater wisdom here but if this was my boat, I would think the large volume of diesel all the way forward in the bilge combined with the recent replacement of the filters suggests that the filters are a more likely source of the leak than the fuel tank. A leak of that magnitude suggests to me that the fuel was under pressure; if so, the leak would be forward of the fuel pump. I would think that a pinhole leak in the tank itself would appear more slowly and would have been noticed by smell and/or seen under the engine bilge before it got to the main bilge. But that should be relatively easy to determine once you get the port wall panel off in the aft cabin and pull up the board looking down at the prop shaft/stuffing box. There is either going to be diesel there or not.
Very sorry to hear you are facing this problem. The smell has to be pretty bad.
Turns out the tank was the culprit. My wife and I ended up pumping the tank via the engine fuel pump and five gallon buckets (see pic below) until 2am to keep the bilge from filling with fuel (again!).
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s290/kwaltersmi/IMG_1347_zpsmqa4a2qi.jpg)
The next morning I disconnected and removed the fuel tank, which was much easier than I anticipated. I suspect the leak was coming from a rusty looking half-dollar sized spot on the port aft bottom section of the tank. There was also a pile of gooey/rusty looking debris and puddled fuel on the tank shelf directly beneath this spot.
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s290/kwaltersmi/IMG_1349_zps3xrivi5a.jpg)
So...Any advice on purchasing and installing a new tank? From my research here I've gathered that buying direct from Catalina (~$350?) is probably my best bet since the tank is the same size and the fittings are included (sending unit, pick-up tube, etc.). I understand that I may have to add a longer vent line and longer wiring for the sending unit.
My biggest concern is getting the engine started again after I install the new tank. I'm sure I induced air into the fuel system at some point in this process. I've never had to bleed my engine for fuel filter changes etc. since my M25XPB is self-priming just like the M35. Do you think I'll need to do a full bleed of the injectors, etc.? Any other re-starting advice?
Quote from: kwaltersmi on June 07, 2015, 05:41:45 PMI've never had to bleed my engine for fuel filter changes etc. since my M25XPB is self-priming just like the M35. Do you think I'll need to do a full bleed of the injectors, etc.? Any other re-starting advice?
No, you won't. Don't sweat it.
Nice detective work.
Sorry about the fuel tank, but take solace in the fact that you probably have the cleanest, skinniest looking engine in the fleet!! How did you do that?!
After talking to Catalina and Ezell Manufacturing (tank manufacturer), neither has the tank (part #20791) in stock. They said it will take ~4 weeks to build/deliver. Ugh!
Other alternatives?
I might check around with local metal fabrication companies and see if I can have one built locally. Or maybe I could temporarily patch the old one and re-use it until the new one comes in? Or some other temporary tank set-up? Or another source for the part #20791?
Any ideas?
Do a search for local fuel tank fabricators. You might even be able to see if slightly enlarging the dimensions may still fit and give you a few extra gallons capacity. I've compared the cost between getting a metal tank directly from Catalina vs. going to a local fabricator and the price was the same. Get the drawing for the current tank, this way you can get a quote locally. From there, you can see if making it slightly bigger will work....
It may well be a different path to the same destination but Catalina Direct also sells a fuel tank for the C34. It might be worth a call to them to see if they can get it to you more quickly.
Quote from: claygr on June 08, 2015, 12:03:47 PM
It may well be a different path to the same destination but Catalina Direct also sells a fuel tank for the C34. It might be worth a call to them to see if they can get it to you more quickly.
Yup, you're right. I called CD and they told me 6-8 weeks. They use the same sources as Catalina Yachts.
Thanks for the suggestions!
How about having someone weld up the hole until you can get a new tank? I know it mean doing the install twice, but the sailing season is short up here. It could even make it until the end of the season and you could do it on the hard.
QuoteSorry about the fuel tank, but take solace in the fact that you probably have the cleanest, skinniest looking engine in the fleet!! How did you do that?!
The 1987s has an M25 XP, that thar is a repower. Still the shiniest engine I've ever seen. Not sure about skinny.
And I'd also suggest a local fabricator, but if you do, make sure they pressure test it. My former boat partner found out the hard way.
Yes "Shiny"! Damn auto correct! BTW- Didn't your mudder teach you not to pick on an old blind man who's hunt and pecking on a tiny iPhone.
Yes, she was repowered with the XPB in 2012 and currently has ~150 hours. So I can't take all the credit for the shine.
I ended up ordering through Ezell Industries (Catalina's supplier) for $482. They told me there is a 2-3 week lead time, which I think is about as good as I can do at this point. Catalina quoted me $515 for the same tank from Ezell. Catalina Direct's price is $562. No one has them in stock. All come with all the fittings (sending unit, pick-up, etc.). Ezell also agreed to move the grounding tab back toward the rear of the tank where it is on my current tank instead of at the forward end on the newer schematics from Catalina.
In the meantime, I'm planning to clean out my current tank with acetone per Ron's Wiki article and then patch the leak from the outside with metal epoxy and hopefully re-install this weekend so I can take full advantage of the short Great Lakes sailing season.
Hi
Ran into the same delivery issue that you are having and we chose to go with a local fabricator when we had a leak in our tank. Turnaround time was 1 week. Just gave him the old tank and he made an exact copy. Everything lined up exactly even the screw holes on the forward mounting bracket. He even replaced the fuel gage sending unit noticing that the PO had replaced the unit with one that was two short so the tank read empty when it was actually still half full. Also took the opportunity to replace the fuel line and the fuel return line from the injectors. I have a friend who used the 6 gal. poly outboard gas cans as a temporary solution while he replaced his fuel tank. Just need to secure the temporary tank to the shelf with a tie downside so it won't slide around under sail.
Paul
Quote from: pablosgirl on June 09, 2015, 11:54:06 AMI have a friend who used the 6 gal. poly outboard gas cans as a temporary solution while he replaced his fuel tank. Just need to secure the temporary tank to the shelf with a tie downside so it won't slide around under sail.
I've thought about using one of those tanks as a temporary way to get on the water. What about venting the tank? Those 6 gallon poly tanks are intended for on-deck use and have a cap vent instead of a vent hose to the transom. Do you know if your friend installed a vent hose or just used the cap vent?
IIRC, they make inboard DIESEL fuel tanks that are/should be supplied with vent connections, too. I would select a diesel tank over a gas tank.
http://www.westmarine.com/permanent-fuel-tanks (http://www.westmarine.com/permanent-fuel-tanks)
The other tanks are rated as "above deck tanks" with the built in vent caps.
Good idea.
Aside from venting, another issue would be the fuel return line, which I don't believe is include on the portable, topside tanks.
He had to add a metal tube for the return line. Used that grey epoxy that you see on the auto parts store counter that has a piece of wood, a piece of metal, and a piece of plastic all stuck to a Coke bottle. I cannot remember the name of the product. He would open the vent screw before starting the engine and close it after shutting down the engine. It was strapped down in the same place as the original tank which was under the aft quarter berth. This was a temporary setup just to get us out to the race course and to meet the requirement of a running engine until a new tank could be fabricated.