Boat was put in the water today so I ran down for a few minutes to make sure there were no leaks.
Figured while I was there I would try to start the engine. Never had a diesel before. Previous boat had an Atomic 4. Had the boat delivered last year and there was no problem with the engine. Before I put it away I ran the engine to winterize it. Had trouble cranking over but I knew the batteries were at the end of their life. Eventually started and was able to winterize.
Bought new batteries 2 weeks ago.
Hooked up the engine battery. Turned the key, alarm came on, pushed glowplug button for 30-40 seconds. Pushed the start button. Engine doesn't sound like it's cranking correctly. Cranking sounds slow. Pushed glowplug for 1 minute, tried again, same thing. Tried again, same thing.
Went back down below. Smelled a burning smell near the battery. Didn't see any smoke or anything burnt. Pulled the engine cover off. No burning smell near the engine.
Checked the battery cables. The positive connection at the battery terminal was very hot to the touch. Never experienced that before. Is that normal? I brought home the manual to read tonight. Flipped quickly through the troubleshooting pages near the back but didn't see anything.
Reading some of the engine posts here maybe it's a fuel issue but seems more like electrical. Not sure what the engine cranking sound should be. I'm expecting a typical fast engine cranking sound.
Any ideas?
mre : WOW!! Where to start trouble shooting?!? Battery cables should not get hot starting the engine. Even turning over slowly, a diesel should start if the glow plugs are functioning, it is getting fuel and it has compression.
You need to check your electrical connectors at your "engine" battery and at the starter solenoid (you might also check the connectors at the battery selector switch). Also check the ground connections at the battery and main ground under the starter on the bell housing (#4 black wire).
Then you need to check the glow plugs. Did you get about a 2 volt drop when you engaged them??
Did the electric fuel pump start "ticking" when you turned on the key switch??
After all the electrical connections are checked and found OK, check the glow plugs again. If they are OK (they get warm/hot when engaged), then make sure the injectors are getting fuel (loosen the fuel connection on the top of a connector, turn the engine over and you should see some fuel seepage!
Being a new boat to you and you have no experience with a diesel you just might hire a good diesel mechanic and watch what he is checking (& ask questions). Preferably this mechanic knows C34s (like a mechanic that works for a Catalina Dealer). Then write it off as an "on the spot diesel lesson". Good luck
A few thoughts
Thanks Ron.
This gives me a place to start at least. I haven't had a chance to play around with the engine at all since I've bought her. I've been too busy fixing everything else. I'm hoping to get down this weekend for a while to poke around and get more familiar with the engine. If I can't get it going, I'm going to call the marina mechanic and have him take a look.
I was hoping it would start up then I could start do some maintenance items one at a time. Figured if I do one maintenance item at a time and the engine doesn't start then I would know it was something I just did.
I would start by replacing the connectors at the cable ends. The cable getting hot is an indication that you have resistance at the connection. The starter draws a very large current and even a 1-2 ohm resistance results in a huge power loss (heat). You will also get slow cranking. You may also have enough power loss that you are not heating the glow plugs. Ron has written many times about soldering and crimping the lugs to the ends of the cables.
One other thougt is to do the solenoid upgrade if it has not been done. You will only need to heat the plugs for 10 seconds or so after doing this.
Keep us up to date on how things are going. There is a lot of help available on this board.
Don't know if this applies to your engine. My starting instructions cautions not to crank the engine more than 30 seconds. If it is cranked that long I need to drain the muffler. Water may back up into the engine.
I would check that the connections on the battery are clean, installed in the right order and tight: largest current draw cable first on the terminal, then next largest etc. (assuming you don't have a bus bar). I have found the need to snug up the nuts on the terminals from time to time. One spring this was a cause of the engine not turning over for me.
Make sure that if you use a wrench, the shaft is fully wrapped in electrical tape: avoid any chance of a short circuit when using a wrench near a battery!
Another thought: you said that you "hooked up the engine battery". Did you hook up the house bank as well?
Did not hook up the house bank yet. I needed to pick up a strap to tie the batteries down. I have 2 Group 31 deep cycle flooded house batteries. Brand new, just bought last week.
Take a look at this excellent article by mainesail, and see how your current (no pun intended) battery cables and lugs compare:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_cables
Probably need an alternator/battery guru to comment, re running the engine with no battery connected to the alternator? I wouldn't want to do this myself, but then I am no expert...still learning.
Went to the boat today. Checked the battery connections. Appear tight but I think I'm going to get new cables anyway. They aren't the best cables. Read an older post about the glow plugs. The owner had to push glowplugs for 45 sec, try engine, push glowplugs for 45 sec, try engine, push glowplugs for 45 sec, try engine then it would start. Figured I would give that a try. On my forth try it started right up. The poster ended up replacing the glow plugs which did the trick. I think I'll try that and the solenoid fix and see how I make out.
mre : Beside the battery cables/connectors needing checking, it sounds as though you need to look in Critical Updates and do the glow plug solenoid fix. You should never ever need 2 shots of 45 sec. each!! You might also invest in 3 new glow plugs from the sound of it!
I surely hope that you are not looking at a amp meter in the engine instrument panel!! (see Wiring Harness upgrade!!)
A few thoughts
sounds like maybe all 3 glow plugs aren working, if you get glow plugs, go to your local car parts place, I bought mine from GTC, around 6 bucks apiece. They are NGK, do not go to a kubuta or catalina for these plugs, they cost too much there for the same plug
Bob
Do you have a part number for the NGK plugs.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4972.0.html
(from a search on NGK by Bobg)
Thanks Stu. Never thought to search for NGK by Bobg. Just learned something.
Bob : You are going to have to learn that you have a Kubota engine and that Kubota dealer has the "engine" related parts in stock!! or you can go to Kubota on line and find them.
You have a B7000 Kubota tractor engine!!
If a M25 (1986) is a Kubota B7000, what Kubota # is a M25-XP?
Set2,
The M25XP is a Kubota D950 Engine used on the B7200 Kubota Tractor.
Guys : For the M25XP, I also found that sometime the B7200 tractor was incorrect, but the B7100 tractor worked. You need to look at the schematic of each!!
A thought
My humble suggestion is to add the solenoid first and see if it fixes the problem. It made a big difference for us and we have the same engine. Plus, it is relatively easy to do. The glow plugs may be fine. You did not mention the temperature when you were trying to start the engine - colder temperatures will definitely require more glow plug time.
The temp was in the 60's. I ordered both the glow plugs and solenoid. I'll try the solenoid first and see how that works
I was looking through the Universal M25 manual. During the start-up procedure it says turn key, hold glowplug button for 30-60 sec then press starter button. Hold glowplug and starter button at same time when starting. Is this the way it should be done? I've been holding the glowplug button, release, then push the starter button. Does it make a difference?
Yes, it does. The book is wrong. No need to have both major amperage draws on at the same time.
mre : As Stu said, you don't need to keep the glow plug button IN when you push IN the starter. The glow plugs are already heated and you what all the amps available to turn over the starter.
I'd like to add something that I'm not sure is true but is in my memory from someone who I can't recall.
Don't have the battery charger on when starting the engine. I was told that the extra couple of volts would cause premature failure of the glow plugs and the starter. Is this a fact or a myth?
Jim
According to a retailer of Etecno glow plugs for Kubota engines: the most comon cause of failure of glow plugs is over-voltage. This would suggest it is a good idea to disconnect the charger, (pretty sure I've seen someone post that here as well). Another good reason to disconnect it is to help ensure you don't motor away from the dock with the power cord still attached! Yep, seen that done (charterers!).
Tony
I guess I will have to change my starting procedure. I have always started my engine with the power cord attached and then as the engine was warming up for a few minutes, I would unplug the shorepower cord, then throw off the dock lines....After seven years, does not seem to be a problem. But I certainly want to prolong the life of my glow-plugs!
I'm not debating anything, just looking at all this with some skepticism.
Over voltage from what though? How would 1.0 to 1.5 volts more from a charger bother the glow plugs?
I just read that most common failure was leaving them on too long, as in over 5 minutes with the engine running.
Three glo plugs at about 15 ohms each would 5 ohms at 12 volts is 2.4 amps, not much, 5 ohms at 13.5v is 2.7 amps charger on.. 300ma over three plugs or an additional 100ma per plug for about 10 seconds .. I'm not buying it. Maybe it's the folks who hold for 45 seconds or more with charger voltage?
I have started my engine with the charger on many times and pretty sure it's always been in float except for the first time this season, it was in bulk charge mode. Never hurt anything that I know of. I guess I'm lucky or it doesn't matter.
Also I hold the glo plugs on until it's running about a second or two. Total time on for glo would be 10-12 seconds, or count of 10-12.
I don't see that it's necessary to let go - then start, its less than 5 amps right? unless you have a depleted battery and you are worried won't start the engine with both loads going. If the batteries are up there's over 1400 cranking amps available.
Is there another reason to let off the glo for cranking?
There's a couple of threads here, but in response to the shore power or not starting issue: We always start with shore power (charger) off, shore power cable disconnected for good measure. If our batteries are shot and not holding a charge we'd like to know that BEFORE leaving the dock.
Check your ground wire from the engine control panel especially at the connectors. This gave me similar problems a couples back. Engine on occasion would not start.
Paul
Jim : If you look in your M35BC engine Manual on page 21 there is a WARNING : Not to engage the glow plugs for more than 30 seconds!!! These are different glow plugs than the M25XP glow plugs!!
Guys : I'm not too sure if you get "extra" voltage to the glow plugs if you have the shore charger ON or not? However I don't believe that it wise to start the engine with the shore AC charge ON as there is a dueling between the alternator and shore charger to charge the batteries. I just don't do both at the same time. My thoughts
Quote from: Paulus on May 16, 2013, 04:01:26 AM
Check your ground wire from the engine control panel especially at the connectors. This gave me similar problems a couples back. Engine on occasion would not start.
Paul
Good idea.
That's why we wrote the CRITICAL UPGRADES thread.
Guys : To emphasize what Paul said : "Check your ground wire from the engine control panel especially at the connectors. This gave me similar problems a couples back. Engine on occasion would not start. Paul"
In the short 27 seasons that I've had my C34, I've found that if there is a circuit problem it usually (way over 50%) the ground wire. You need to clean them (grounds) and constantly check them.
Sometimes it's handy to have a long piece of #10 wire with alligator clips an use it as a jumper when testing circuits.
A thought
Well, I got the engine going today. Want to thank everyone for the help. Turns out it was the engine ground connection. The bolt was rusted and all the connections had corrosion on them. Cleaned all the connections and replaced the bolt. The original was steel. I replaced it with stainless. All I had on me. Should I change the stainless back to a new steel bolt. I'm worried about corrosion with dissimilar metals.
I also replaced my glowplugs. Changing them first didn't make any change to the engine start-up. Was getting the same start-up problem. Yesterday I had purchased a ratchet extension to allow me to get the ground bolt off. Could get the ratchet in without the 10" extension.
The old glowplugs had quite a bit of soot buildup on the tips. Not sure if that causes problems when they are working. Just a FYI in case anyone else is planning on replacing them. I used NGK Y103V glowplugs. To remove the old you need a 12mm wrench. Also need a 12mm for the new and a 8mm wrench to install the new nuts to secure the wiring. Try to get a short handle wrench. The standard length was tough to fit.
Stainless and regular steel are fine together so no corrosion problems. :thumb: Probably should make sure you have lock-washer on it...
mre : What I did when I first got the boat (1989) was to take that main ground connection to the port side bell housing, remove it and solder the ring connector. Then I sanded the paint off the bell housing where it connected, bolted it on and sprayed the connection with the BoeShield T-9. I never ever had a problem.
I spry BoeShield on most all of the connection I make - keeps them from cording.
A thought