Catalina 34

Hi all,

Not exactly a specific Catalina 34 question but since I do own a Catalina 34... 8)

The photo below is Fiddlers Cove Marina in San Diego.  It is a Military Marina with a very long wait list.  I have been on the list for over 3 years.  In the meantime I have enjoyed keeping Pau Hana slipped at Pier 32 Marina, a new and expensive marina accross the bay from Fiddlers.  The cost of keeping a boat at Fiddlers is half the price not as many amenities but it is in a nicer part of town and definetely way more layed back and relaxed..... Thats a good thing.

I have finally been given the call to take a slip, and the slip offered is actually not bad but it does raise a couple questions of boat handling and keeping her tucked away safely during the week. 

The highlighted area where the powerboat is at is the slip location I expect to move to.  The arrows indicate the direction of prevailing winds most of the year. 

A couple questions:
1.  Is this slip location way too tricky given the close proximity to another dock?
2.  With port prop walk while backing out is this slip better to back into?  or bow in?
3.  Since the wind will always be pushing the boat into the dock, what is the best way to handle fender arrangements to prevent excessive rubbing?

I'm basically looking for some comments on the general location and thoughts of this area.  I'm a big believer in my mid ship cleat with the aft spring line and there is no such thing as having too many fenders.

Anyway... let me know your thoughts :abd:     

Kevin : It could get tricky getting into the slip if the winds are high.  
You made no mention of current(tide).

I'd ask the marina owner a "what if question".  If the winds are high is it allowable to tie up to the "T" head end of the dock until the die down - then move the boat to its slip?  

A thought

Kevin,
Look's tight.  I've been in tighter visitors slips so I think that it's doable.  Myself, I would feel a lot more comfortable using that slip with a good crew aboard.  May be even 2.  Not sure about all-weather single handed. Ron has a good point using the "T" end of the dock.  May be to drop off a crew to catch and handle a line.  What's the size of the boat you show in the slip?  Doesn't look as big as a 34.   I think that bow out (as shown) would be the best.  Prop walk would help backing from the dock.  When the boat is pushed to the dock I like to hang fenders horizonaly as the boat and dock rock the fender rolls not rub.  When docking vertical so they roll as the boat moves on the dock.  Or the big round ones, they roll in all directions.  Looks to me like a floating dock, so you can tie up fairly tight.  Any possibility of trying before you buy?  If the slip is open try it a couple of times.
I know to get in to the marina or yacht club of your choice sometimes you have to take what ever slip is open, then you get first pick on the next opening.  A good reason to take a tight slip.
The deal breaker for me would be.  Will sailing days be lost because of the difficult docking?  But then, maybe thats not important in year round San Diego.
Jim

I think it is pretty tight but if I was going to do it I would go stern-to.  I would back from the bottom of the picture straight back and then use the prop walk and rudder to back the stern and make an almost 90 degree turn to port into the slip.   Leaving the slip would be easy as long as the wind was not driving you hard into the finger pier.  I would be concerned about backing out of that slip if docked bow in as it looks pretty tight to back hard to port and backing straight out or slightly to starboard is always a challenge due to the prop walk.

Kevin,
If that were my slip here are a few options that I would consider and try.
With the prevailing winds, backing into that slip would be easier than a dual fingerd slip. I would back down into that area when returning to that slip. You could swing wide enough to clear the single finger and the prevailing winds should help push you to the dock. Leaving the slip would be easier powering forward slowly until you could swing to port and the stern would swing away from the dock.

Bow in options will all be tricky backing out and you will have to find the option that you are most comfortable with. The nice thing about C-34's is that they are pretty responisve to forward throttle. You might try practicing backing out and letting the prop walk take you into the open area on your port and then powering forward to clear your finger. Depending on skill level, this could be a combination of walking the boat back a bit and then pushing out the stern (or letting the prop-walk do this) to get the bow to clear the finger. Anyway, if you practice with some experienced crew you can find a method that you will become comfortable with. There are a number of options but that is definatley a tricky location. If it were me I would put my name on the transfer list immediately so that you don't miss a beat if another slip location comes up. I single had alot, so I like an up-wind slip. If you practice backing up to a bouy in the bay, you should get pretty comfortable backing down into a slip. I used to back down my fairway into my slip, and that helped my comfort level. Definately, powering forward out of that slip would be my preferred approach. Just a few thoughts...

The good news is that if you choose to back out, the prop walk and the prevailing winds from the top of the picture will help you turn the correct way.  I find with our boat that wind direction and current are as or even more important than prop walk in terms of getting the boat to turn.  The bad news is that looks like a really tight space to back into if you are leaving stern-first.  I wouldn't try it if you had a decent cross-wind or current from the bottom of the picture unless you had someone on the dock who you trusted who could take a stern line from the aft cleat and you could back down on it to keep the stern in.  Given all that, I would choose to back into that slip if conditions were such that I could do it safely.  But that also is going to be a difficult slip to come into in normal conditions because you are going to have to make a tight turn and then you don't have much room to straighten out.  With a good cross-wind, it is going to be really challenging. 

I always say that anyone on my boat could dock her in little wind or wind either from ahead or even behind the boat.  I earn my beer when there is a cross-wind or a cross-current.  That's when it feels like a carrier landing - any one you walk away without injuring the crew or the boat is a good one. 

I think there is a reason why there is a (no doubt) twin-screwed power boat in that slip.  I would pass on it and bide my time until a better one came along.  But you may well be better skilled and/or braver than I am when it comes to operating a boat under power. 

Back in!
I would be backing in paralell to the transoms of the boats on the dock to the left in your picture.  You don't even need to make a 90 degree turn into the slip.  The trick to dealing with a cross wind is to get enough distance from your slip before starting to back to insure that you will have your boat moving smoothly backward and solidly under control when you start to enter your slip.  The more the wind, the firmer your hand needs to be on the throttle (yup, it can be a little breathtaking sometimes!).  Hopefully you will have shifted into neutral as your stern comes into the slip, then a little 'forward feathering' will bring you to a graceful stop with your transom a foot away from the dock (remember, forward prop drive is so much more efficient than reverse that is really easy to slow or stop a backing boat), and turning the wheel to bring prop wash into play lets you straighten out easily.  I back into my combined downwind/cross wind dock, and a real advantage on a hot day is I pop open the front hatch (I'm facing into the wind) which acts as a wind scoop and brings the breeze throughout my boat.

Kevin,
Guess I looked at it wrong first time.  Thought you were asking about the slip with the sail boat under the arrow.  Don't think where the power boat is would be much problem at all.  Backing in may be the way to go.  Couple of things from boat handling 101 come to mind.  Prop walk only happens when the boat is in gear.  Get a little speed on, then put the transmission in neutral to back up straight, in and out of neutral to keep the boat moving.  Learn to use the prop walk.  Just by going from rev to fwd and a little throtle in each and repeat, the boat will pivot bow to starboard on an axis a foot or two aft of the mast.
Jim

Guys : Don't want to get into Boat handling 101, but prop walk is when gyroscopic precession (of the prop) is not countered by the water flow across the rudder surface.  Yes, learn to use it too your advantage just like current and wind.  All can help you, if you know how to use them!

Once you have 2 to 3 knots of speed - you have rudder steerage.  A thought

I would vote for stern in also.  I would also add one of those large ball shaped roller/bumbers to the end of the dock.  If the wind is blowing you down on the dock when you leave it will help keep the side of the boat from being scrapped.  Don't have to shop at WM, but they had the picture.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=50484&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50304&subdeptNum=50343&classNum=50349#.UVxz57Aq3D0 (http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=50484&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50304&subdeptNum=50343&classNum=50349#.UVxz57Aq3D0)

Truthfully, that slip doesn't look bad at all. I'd trade my slip for that in a heartbeat-I'm much tighter at SDYC.

Hi Everyone,

Fantastic responses and some interesting challenges.  I really chose this particular slip due to the fact that there are no other boats directly against my side.  Another reason is that due to the location within the marina, the view looks out into a large area that is frequented by paddleboarders and kayaks and just the general layed back marina type of scenery...
As I thought, and as many of you confirmed,the best approach to this slip appears to be stern in.  It has a lot of advantages.
Now... for anyone in and around the San Diego bay area... particuarly in Southbay. 
If you see a Catalina 34 goining everywhere in reverse, its me :shock:  practicing my mad backing skills everytime I'm out.

I've also confirmed that I'll be able to make a few dy ones into the slip before the actual move.

and... oh yeah... I'll be the boat with about 20 fenders wrapped around me. :abd:

Hey Kevin,

As you might expect we all tend to play to our strengths.  Unfortunately backing into the slip isn't one of my strengths, especially with cross-wind challenges.  Here's how I'd deal with a bow-in scenario.  Exiting: The port pro-walk ought to back you right where you want to go.  If you have a stiff wind coming from the left of the picture(pushing on your starboard bow to port) this may counteract your portward stern progress some, and perhaps too much.  In such a case you could a)be aggressive with the throttle to gain steerage quicky while backing, and/or B)Push the stern to port as your crew boards, or move the stern to port by idling forward into a bow spring line.  This will pitch the stern to port, after which you release the spring line and begin backing.  Returning bow in: A precisely placed mid-ship cleat and aftward run spring line will draw the boat nicely into the dock.  It's pretty sweet when it's done right.  The first time I saw this maneuver was an 80+ year old man and his 80+ wife.  After she tied off the line, the old man clicked the engine back into idle-forward which kept the boat hugged tight and perfectly parallel to the dock.  After a little experimenting at the dock, you'll find the precise location for the cleat on the fairlead track where the boat will draw in perfectly parallel to the dock.  You'll want a snubber on this line and you'll want a crew member who can quickly step off and wrap the line around the most aftward cleat on the dock.  This can be practiced at the dock as often as needed until you've got it wired.  Keep us updated on how all is working out with the slip...  I'm sure we'll learn from your experiences.

Re Mark's suggestion: The place to put the cleat is in line with the companionway bulkhead (the "doghouse"). Run a line to the cleat on the seaward corner of the dock as you enter the slip. This will hold the boat snug and tight against the dock. Any further forward and the stern swings out.

On the MKII this is very easy to do, using the outboard genoa track. I have two cleats on this track now. One in the doghouse position for entering the slip, and one midships for a springline.

I have a slip configured like yours, with the mooring on the starboard side (if going in forward). I have tried mooring astern (many times) and forward (now my favored approach) , and offer the following from my personal experience. One item to remember is that at less than two knots of boat speed, we tend to lose steerage with our C34's, and windage takes over.

If I go in astern, with more than a faint breeze coming straight into the slip (the lower arrow in your photo), the prop walk when stopping (in forward gear) will push the stern to port, and the bow will swing away from the dock. Once it catches the wind, it takes some quick action and strength to haul it back in. This turning momentum is exaggerated by approaching the dock at an angle and turning into it, as it seems that you must from the photo.  The only way to easily correct this is to have someone take a bow line quickly to the end of the dock, and control the bow (or install a bowthruster).  If there is no-one ashore, then you must have the ability to drop off crew onto the dock from a boat moving smartly astern: a risky proposition. (As soon as you slow, the bow starts its swing, and the gap to the dock becomes alarming).

If the wind is blowing you on to the dock (your upper arrow), it is much easier: three 26" bumpers along the side and 2 over the stern should work for you. 

But in all conditions other than dead calm I have found going in forward much safer for the crew: I can bring the boat alongside and stop it without drama. After discovering the "doghouse" cleat trick above, this is now a no-brainer for us: I can control the line from the helm position. And you only need the three bumpers along the side.  Ron's suggestion of bumper wheel on the corner is great: this will allow you to enter and leave the slip safely even in a strong cross-wind.

My 2c

Tony

One word of caution on the "Dock Wheel", check with the marina dock master before you buy one to ensure there is no problem installing them.  A lot of marinas won't let you attach to the dock because you have to put holes in the dock side treated timbers and that lets water intrude into the wood.

Ralph

Just want to share and give credit to where my humble docking skills started.  Captain Jack Klang, he goes to many of the boat shows with Quantum Sails.  He's the guy with the carpet, boat models, push sticks and a crowd around.  The thing that I do differntly is keep a "catch line" on a hanger at the end of my dock put that on a midship cleat, a little power, a little rudder, and I'm docked and ready for the rest of the dock lines at my ease.  My bookmark for his docking video sampler didn't work, with a little googling you may find one.  Here is a link to a pfd

http://www.fsc.com.au/cproot/442/3/DockingManeuvering.pdf

Docking should not be exciting.
Jim

IIRC, Klang's video has a link here:

Single Handing 101  http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5445.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5445.0.html)

And Kevin is already a "proponent" of the midships spring line!  :clap

Boy nothing brings up some spirited conversation like the topic of docking challenges  :nail

I am a HUGE proponent of the mid ship cleat and the aft spring line.  (And so are my dock neighbors now after seeing how utterly non-eventful it is pulling into the slip)  8)

That being said... More on the topic of the challenge of the aforementioned slip assignment at Fiddlers Cove.

This weekend, the Admiral and I went out and motored around the area challenging ourselves with some drills of emergency backing and generally getting a good feel for the boat in reverse.
I found out (surprisingly) that the C34 backs pretty nicely and well controlled with throttle and once you get some wash across the rudder.  However... It's that moment from complete stop to very low speed in reverse (2kt)  that I feel slightly out of control.  We're going to keep working but the drills we did this weekend were of great benefit. 
We were using a very large fairway at the marina with several empty slips.  (Of course it is also right in view of the restaurant and observation deck... which brings to mind that docking a boat in a marina is also considered a "spectator sport").  :think  The Admiral was very impressed with my close quarter maneuvering, backing and pivoting.  I felt in complete control the entire time.  Afterwards we had heard from some friends that a bunch of people in the restaurant were wondering "what's that boat doing out there, backing, pivoting and generally going back and forth and in circles?"
I was quite glad to hear that several folks made the comment that "he looks like he's calm and in control so no worries"  (If only they knew the white knuckle terror that is in my mind when spinning my boat around in close quarters). :shock: :shock: 

The practice will continue for our upcoming slip assignment and I'll keep everyone posted.

BTW... Jack Klang is awesome! 

When starting the backing maneuver, I find it is most effective to turn the wheel about 1/4 turn to stbd so it begins counteracting the propwash as soon as it has some flow.  Use burst of max power to get reverse started then when you have reverse steerage throttle as necessary.

Thought I would provide an update on my slip situation.

We went over to Fiddlers Cove this past weekend and lo and behold, the dockmaster offered up another slip for consideration. 
The Admiral and I were both a bit anxious about the learning curve for backing stern to in the first slip.  (although I'm getting some pretty mad skills backing around and pivoting in close quarters now  :D ) So we gave the newly offered slip a look. 
We decided to take the offer based on a couple factors. 
1.  We don't HAVE to back in
2.  The fairway behind us is a full 50+ feet
3.  The cockpit view offers a view of downtown San Diego and the Coronado Bay Bridge while inport.
4.  Since a lot of sailing lessons and Kayakers/paddleboarders frequent the main basin of the marina we don't have to navigate through them everytime to get to our slip.
5.  And probably the biggest factor is... It's an upwind slip  :thumb:

The single biggest downside of the slip is it is not a single berth slip so I do have another boat directly on one side of me... but I think thats minor.
The other concern is a shallow area at low tide that is a bit on the skinny side to navigate to the fairway, but still offers plenty of depth.

Cleaned out the dockbox and going to stow the dinghy on the foredeck for the big move next weekend to our new home.   :abd:

Glad it worked out for you.
Jim

I believe that you have a better slip, especially being upwind. 

Not only will you love the upwind slip, you will walk to port when you go for a sail, so that slip is perfect !  I am sure you will love it!

Looks a lot like our slip except for the fact that you're in sunny San Diego and I am in frigid Wisconsin, where we are looking at the possibility snow tomorrow.  Enjoy your new home!

Kevin,
I know it's been awhile but how are you liking your slip at Fiddlers Cove? Even though I don't have my boat anymore, I still maintain a membership with the Navy Yacht Club for the reciprical benefits.
If you see Curt, the dockmaster, could you ask him if Tony Van Houwling is still a member and has his boat there. I sailed with Tony when he brought his boat back from Lapaz Mexico and met some good folks at the yacht club.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Fiddlers is absolutely amazing!  It's so nice to be in a marina that is in a natural cove and soooo laid back.  If your ever in the area, stop by.  I just saw Curt today and the Navy Yacht club is doing really really well.  Lots of great activities (and the recipricol benefits can't be beat).  The docks are not all fancy and we don't have world class amenities but it's got great personality. 
PM me anytime if your looking to be in the area!!
I'll ask about Tony.