I am in the middle of troubleshooting the following:
1) why after I start the engine it runs smoother and at what sounds like higher rpms if I turn the start switch off.
2) why my engine gauges are not working. (the tachometer, fuel level and temp don't work at all; the voltage gauge works with the start switch on but once I start the engine and turn the start switch off it then does not work)
I have a 1988 and last year I upgraded the electrical system with a dedicated starting battery, a four golf cart battery house bank, echo charger, etc. (basically everything Jim Moe recommended except for the alternator upgrade). At some time later I noticed the above two problems. I don't think they were related to the upgrade.
So far I have traced all the wiring at the engine to the harness and checked those connections and have removed the engine panel and checked those connections. With the starter switch off, each gauge shows 13.1 volts from the power source to their ground. So, I assume that individual gauges grounds are satisfactory. With the starter switch on each gauge shows 13.1 volts from its lower pole to its ground. So, I assume that each gauge has power.
That's as far as I've gone and I am not sure what the next steps are. Any advice or direction will be appreciated. I am considering the wiring harness upgrade but I am not sure that it would solve my problem.
Bill
Bill,
When you turn the key switch "on", it provides the power to the electrical systems that power the tach, fuel and temp gages. When you turn that switch "off" you turn off those systems. That is why they don't show any reading when the engine is running with the switch "off".
Ralph
Ciao Bella
Also, when you turn the switch off, that cuts out the alternator which will make the engine seem smoother and raises the RPM.
Unless the AO is wired directly to the battery or the 1-2-all-off switch, then it keeps pumping juice to the battery. As it should be.
I've been told not to turn off the engine switch with the engine running because it would damage the diodes. Is this a true statement? Thanks.
Scotty, no it shouldn't. The reason is that the ignition switch only turns the regulator on or off. What you never want to do is to interrupt the AO, which is one of the reasons we suggest it get rewired from the switch directly to the house bank.
Quote from: SD Diver on July 10, 2012, 02:22:30 PM
Unless the AO is wired directly to the battery or the 1-2-all-off switch, then it keeps pumping juice to the battery. As it should be.
If the regulator is turned off the AO stops.
Thanks Stu. (sorry for such basic questions, but...). What is AO? and how would it be interrupted by the switch?
Scotty, time to go back to basics. :D
You might remember the "Electrical 101" topic that IIRC you contributed to. AO is alternator output. In the OEM installation, the AO went to the C post on the 1-2-B switch. Our recommendation is to relocate it to the house bank and use an echo charger to automatically charge the reserve bank. Sound familiar?
The old and new alternator and regulator wiring diagrams are listed in the "Electrical 101" topic, too. They're here (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4548.0.html), and show the ignition switch wired to the regulator. The ignition switch tells the regulator to turn the alternator ON by telling it to put out power. That power goes out via the AO. Turn off the regulator and the power stops. Interrupt the AO and you fry the diodes.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on July 11, 2012, 06:21:35 AM
Scotty, no it shouldn't. The reason is that the ignition switch only turns the regulator on or off. What you never want to do is to interrupt the AO, which is one of the reasons we suggest it get rewired from the switch directly to the house bank.
Thank you for clarifing that Stu.
Thank you, Stu.
Guys : Never say Always !
I seem to remember that the old AutoMac (Automatic Alternator Controller) got its battery sensing from the key switch! That's why the Auto Mac wouldn't function with out the wiring harness upgrade!
So unless your voltage regulator also gets its power from the key switch, turning off the key switch with the engine running could present a real problem.
I also seem to recall that the old Balmar BRS I volt. reg. got it's battey (voltage) sensing from the key switch - don't recall where it got its power from??
Basicly, there should be no reason to shut off the key switch with the engine running, unless you are tired of looking at what the 4 gages are reading !!?!
A thought
Thanks guys for all the dialog and input. It does make sense to me now not to turn off the ignition switch once the engine is running. This weekend I will recheck the rewiring I did last year but I am almost positive that the AO goes directly to the house bank.
I still have the problem of the gauges (except for voltage) not reading anything when the ignition switch is on. Any thoughts here.
Bill
Bill : Let me try again:
It isn't where the Alt.Output goes to that is so important, it's where the Volt Reg get it battery sense from and where the VR gets it power from.
A thought
Bill, as I understand it your issue is you have no power to the panel, and you're wondering where it comes from, right?
I actually don't know. :shock: Years ago I had photographed the wiring behind my panel, in the port locker, in the lazarette and behind the panel. It is one of the few mysteries left to me to admit to. :D
But as I recall, when I turn the 1-2-B switch on, the cockpit panel gets power. It could well be that the panel itself is only energized by the ignition switch, but in order for that to happen, there HAS TO BE power going from the switch to the panel.
Now, from a completely "let's play detective" approach, it can come physically two ways: 1) switch to cockpit panel from behind the nav station electrical panel up above the small black sliding doors above the nav station, over the head cabinet through the port locker to the panel, or 2) via the power wire from the C post of the switch to the starter and then through the wiring harness to the panel. I say two ways, 'cuz i just haven't seen any other wires that could "qualify" as being from the switch to the panel. I didn't recall seeing any in the port locker when we redid our exhaust hose recently, however, I wasn't looking for it.
Yes, Ron's right about the sense wire, but it may have no impact on your issue, which is power, not alternator output, right?
So what I'd do is find the main power wire AT the panel. Then trace it back to see where it goes.
In order to help you figure it out, you may be interested in these links
1. Alternator regulator wiring - it mimics some of the wiring diagram in the next link, too http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4548.0.html (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4548.0.html)
2. The Wiring Harness Upgrade in the wiki has a very good wiring diagram of the cockpit panel. One of my sketches kinda copies that. http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Engine_Harness_Upgrade (http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Engine_Harness_Upgrade)
I'll do a little more sleuthing on my boat, but won't be there for over a week. In the meantime, figuring out how the power gets there would be a start. Also, many times bad connections in electrical systems do just what you describe. You could run a temporary wire from the batteries or the electrical panel to the cockpit panel and see if it does work. If so, then finding the culprit gets somewhat easier. Jumper the key switch. Check everything.
You also wrote:
I am considering the wiring harness upgrade but I am not sure that it would solve my problem. You must be aware of the dangers of the connections for the old harness and perhaps the Critical Upgrades warnings about it. If the power does come up through the harness, what's your guess on this one? At the very least, check the connectors, 'cuz it's usually not the harness "wires" themselves that go (mine are 26 years old) but it's the danged connectors. You don't have to replace the entire wiring harness, but you do HAVE to replace the connectors. The warnings on the CU page should be enough, we hope.
You also wrote:
...last year I upgraded the electrical system with a dedicated starting battery, a four golf cart battery house bank, echo charger, etc. (basically everything Jim Moe recommended except for the alternator upgrade). Since you didn't change the old alternator, did you remove the short wire connector between the alternator and the starter?
Good luck, please let us know what you learn.
Quote from: goosechase on July 12, 2012, 07:08:55 AM
I still have the problem of the gauges (except for voltage) not reading anything when the ignition switch is on. Any thoughts here.
This was written in the vein of "this is what I'd do if it was my boat." You reported you had power to the cockpit panel gauges, so if they only go off when you turn off the ignition switch, then the earlier answer is correct.
So, I'm confused between your original post and this later one. If this is the case, then it's kinda gotta be the harness connectors.
Ron the Stu,
Thanks for the replys. I will do some more digging this weekend and let you know.
byw: I do have power to the panel and to the gauges as I said initially "With the starter switch on each gauge shows 13.1 volts from its lower pole to its ground. So, I assume that each gauge has power."
Another question. Is the power to the panel fused in any way. I have some sort of small black box behind the panel (about 1" square) that wires go into and out of but it does not look like a fuse in any way. I'll look closer at this over the weekend.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill : The way your 1988 should be wired is:
There is a red #10 or #12 wire coming from the stud on the starter soleniod that powers the key swich on the engine panel. That stud is the common positive getting its power from the Perko (1/2/All) switch on the main electrical panel.
If you turn the key switch OFF while the engine is running and the VR is powered from that key switch then the alternator is putting out "0" and there is NO side load on the engine - as the a;ternator is just spinning.
Of course there is no reading of any of the gages on the engine panel, as they all get their power from the key switch being ON!! A thought
Bill : I surly hope that "that small black box" behind the engine insturment panel is a replacement connector for the "WIRING HARNESS UPGRADE" ?!!?
If your AO is going directly to the batteries, you don't need the wire from the AO to the starter soleniod.
Another few thoughts
Quote from: Stu Jackson on July 12, 2012, 06:21:49 PM
I actually don't know. :shock: Years ago I had photographed the wiring behind my panel, in the port locker, in the lazarette and behind the panel. It is one of the few mysteries left to me to admit to. :D
But as I recall, when I turn the 1-2-B switch on, the cockpit panel gets power. It could well be that the panel itself is only energized by the ignition switch, but in order for that to happen, there HAS TO BE power going from the switch to the panel.
Now, from a completely "let's play detective" approach, it can come physically two ways: 1) switch to cockpit panel from behind the nav station electrical panel up above the small black sliding doors above the nav station, over the head cabinet through the port locker to the panel, or 2) via the power wire from the C post of the switch to the starter and then through the wiring harness to the panel. I say two ways, 'cuz i just haven't seen any other wires that could "qualify" as being from the switch to the panel. I didn't recall seeing any in the port locker when we redid our exhaust hose recently, however, I wasn't looking for it.
Bill,
I traced the wiring on my boat this afternoon.
There IS a positive wire from the electrical panel up under the head through the port locker back to the cockpit panel.
Here's how it works: The C post of the switch connects to the distribution (nav station) electrical panel. There is NO wire from the C post of the switch back to the cockpit panel. However, there IS a power wire from the C post to the distribution panel (DP) AND from the MAIN POSITIVE BUS BAR of the distribution panel, that's where the wire goes to the cockpit panel.
So, when you turn the switch on, power goes from the C post to the DP, the main bus bar back to the cockpit panel. It is unfused.
On my boat, they also added a wire to power the autopilot.
Just look at the panel, it'll be pretty evident. It may well be that this wire is loose at your panel if everything else works and you have no power to the panel when everything else is on. Or at the panel end.
Quote from: Ron Hill on July 13, 2012, 01:50:02 PM
Bill : The way your 1988 should be wired is:
There is a red #10 or #12 wire coming from the stud on the starter solenoid that powers the key switch on the engine panel. That stud is the common positive getting its power from the (1/2/All) switch on the main electrical panel.
That wire provides power TO the starter solenoid from the ignition switch, it is not the power to the key switch. The key switch powers it, it doesn't power the key switch.
Clouseu, out. :D
The problem is the engine panel gauges not working. I have no problems with altenator output.
Over the weekend I learned that I did not remove the short wire from the alternator to the starter solenoid last year when I upgraded the house bank, added a starting battery and the echo charger, etc. I wondered why I was getting voltage out of the wire from the engine starter solenoid to the starter button. Should I definitely remove this wire?
The source of power at the panel is the wire from the starter solenoid and the wire from the altenator.
Also, I learned that the little black box is a solid state relay and it is related to the sound alarm. There appears to be two sides to the relay. One side has six wires (oil pressure, two to the sound alarm, start button, and two to the ground side of the temperature guage). The other side has four wires that either dead end or connect to each other. I will assume that this device is wired correctly to do what ever it is designed to do.
I now have drawings of all the wiring at the engine and the panel. I plan to go ahead with the wiring harness and connector upgrade in the near future. And if I can't find the solution to current problem before that, hopefully the upgrade will solve it.
Bill
Bill : Look at your C34 owners manual on page 4.2.2, because major wiring changes occured in the 1988 C34 production year - caused by ABYCA recommendations/regulations.
A thought
Should I definitely remove this wire?
Yes.
Why?
OEM 1-2-B Switch Wiring History http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.msg30101.html#msg30101 (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.msg30101.html#msg30101)
Only remove the wire from the alternator output to the starter solenoid if you have run a separate red wire (most likely 2 AWG given the distance involved) from the alternator output to either the C post of the 1-2-C switch or (preferably) to the house battery bank. You did not mention this as part of your upgrade process and it is something you would remember doing.
The power from the batteries runs through the C post (getting power from the 1 and 2 posts) through the starter solenoid and up to the engine panel at the key switch. You indicate you have power at the engine panel and at all of the gauges. It is unlikely that you would have problem with each of the sender wires at once, although I suppose anything is possible with the old harness connections. I believe that the gauges do share a common ground connection, however. Did you check that?
For what it is worth, the engine panel diagram that Stu attached does show a 10 amp circuit breaker between the key switch and the gauges. I know for a fact that we do not have one on our 1989 boat so I don't put a lot of faith in that diagram. Even if there was such a circuit breaker, it would not explain your problem because you have power at the gauges.
We took out our old wiring harness and were horrified at what we found. I really wished I had taken some pictures. The connections were melted, wires were ready to fall apart, etc. I definitely agree it was a fire hazard. We wired directly from the engine to the engine panel rather than use the termstrips.
Quote from: claygr on July 25, 2012, 01:35:58 PM
Only remove the wire from the alternator output to the starter solenoid if you have run a separate red wire (most likely 2 AWG given the distance involved) from the alternator output to either the C post of the 1-2-C switch or (preferably) to the house battery bank. You did not mention this as part of your upgrade process and it is something you would remember doing.
Only reason I said that was 'cuz he said he'd done the Jim Moe upgrade "but without the alternator upgrade." I read that as he'd run the new AO to the house bank.
If he hasn't, you're right.
Clay : I like your testomony, but would you believe that there are still C30s, C34s &C36s that have not done the Wiring Harness Upgrade. It is a FIRE hazzard!!!
Sorry for any misspelled words because spell check no longer functions !! a few thoughts
Hi Guys,
Here's an update on the non-working engine gauges (tach, temp, and fuel). Last week I changed out the wiring harness and added the new term strips. While the old connections did not appear to be in bad shape (fresh water boat), both the tach and the temp gauges started working after the harness upgrade. So, it was definitely the right thing to do for the fire hazzard and the engine gauges.
The fuel gauge itself checks out OK with the resistence test. So, I think the problem is with the transmitter. I'll be working on that soon. Meanwhile I'll keep my fuel tank topped off.
I did remove the #10 orange line from the alternator to the ignition as recommended in the upgrade.
Everything seems to be working fine but I have one question. After starting the engine and with the ignition on, I still have a continuous clicking sound that is similar to the glow plug sound only not quiet as loud. This noise was there before the harness upgrade. Is this normal?
Remember that last year I installed a dedicated starting battery and the power from it goes directly to the starter solenoid. I also installed an echo charger that reaches the starting battery through a wire from the number 2 post on the 1,2,C switch to the starter solenoid.
Also, there was discussion earlier on the need for the short orange wire between the alternator and the starting solenoid. So far, I have not removed this wire. But I did run a #6 wire from the alternator to the house bank for charging. So, it does make sense to me to remove the short orange wire as I want the alternator to charge the house bank first and then charge the starting battery through the echo charger.
That's all for now and thanks for all of your previous input,
Bill
Quote from: Bill Stephenson on August 23, 2012, 12:04:08 PM
1. ...but I have one question. After starting the engine and with the ignition on, I still have a continuous clicking sound that is similar to the glow plug sound only not quiet as loud. This noise was there before the harness upgrade. Is this normal?
2. Also, there was discussion earlier on the need for the short orange wire between the alternator and the starting solenoid. So far, I have not removed this wire. But I did run a #6 wire from the alternator to the house bank for charging. So, it does make sense to me to remove the short orange wire as I want the alternator to charge the house bank first and then charge the starting battery through the echo charger
Bill,
Good work and thanks for the update.
1. Could it be your fuel pump? It should be ticking.
2. See Reply #20 above. Remove the orange wire. The link explained why. :D
Bill : Like Stu said "it could be the fuel pump ticking". If it ticks with only the key switch ON - check the fuel pump under the gally sink (feel it) and I'm sure that is the ticking noise.
I'd run at least a #4 wire for the starting battery and also think about a #6 wire ground to accompany the positive wires from the ALTERNATOR (DIRECT) TO THE BATTERYS.
Also, Remove the short wire from the alternator to the starter sol.- it's not needed
It depends on how you route the wire back from the alternator to the battery compartment, but 2 awg was the right choice for us based on the Blue Sea Systems wire size guide.
Here is a link to the wire guide:
http://bluesea.com/files/resources/reference/20010_Rev.003-web.pdf
No need to run an additional ground back to the battery negative. Just ground it to the engine, it's right there! :D
Guys : I have a #4 ground wire to the battery compartment from the aternator, as well a #8 ground wire from the battery compartment to the DC bus bar on the top back of the main electricl panel.
Neither are absolutely necessary, but guess I just love extra ground connections!!
With the possibility of corrosion, rust, vibration (loose) and over time possibly cruddy connections, I find that the extra grounds are like an insurance policy!!
Thanks again for the input.
- I'll remove the short orange wire (alt to start solenoid) this weekend and check out the fuel pump for the ticking sound.
- I checked the blue seas chart and it looks like the #6 wire from the alternator to the house battery bank may be marginal. If I upgrade the alternator beyond 60 amps I will certainly upgrade the wire.
- The wire size from the start battery to the starter solenoid is a #2. I should be good there.
Bill
Short Update:
I removed the short orange wire from the alternator to the stater solenoid. No problems
The ticking was the fuel pump.
thanks,
Bill :clap