Background:
Battery Bank #1 – 4 Lifeline AGM Batteries 6 volt in series parallel
Battery Bank #2 – 1 Lifeline AGM battery 12 volt
Xantrex Pathmaker
Xantrex True charge 20+ Battery Charger
Xantrex Link 20 Battery Monitor
Xantrex True charge Remote display
I feel I may be over my head on this one and may have to resort to finding a good marine electrical guy here in SD. The PO installed what I believe to be a magnificent upgrade to the standard electrical system with a lot of quality products. I have been trying to understand what is going on but to no avail. Over time I have noticed the battery monitor status for Battery 1 to slowly go down in status to the point now where I have a flashing red indicator that warns of a dangerously low charge on the battery bank. (battery 2 – the starter battery has remained green since I bought Pau hana and has shown no change). I have researched the threads for a clue and have poured over my owners manuals and on line. I have checked the four fuses (all good). Does anyone have any idea on what else I May need to be looking for? If I cant get results, my next option is to find an electrician. Please help.
BTW... I have considered the possibility of a bad solonoid on the Pathmaker system but I'm uncertain on a method of troubleshooting. Dunno if that's the problem but something else I have considered.
Kevin,
Nice setup!
A few questions to help get a handle on the problem:
How old is the house bank?
How long does it take to get the flashing light indication and under what load?
What is the indicated charge voltage on the house bank on shore power?
With everything turned off, including the battery master, what does the Link read for amps being used. If it is more than -0.01 or -0.02 you have something draining the batteries. If it reads 0, I would suspect the batteries. Fully charge and take to an auto parts store or place that sells batteries (Sam's/Costco/Walmart, etc), ask them for conduct a load/condition check. They will usually do one for free. Obviously if you have a drain, need to find it!
Kevin, given all that gear, the piece of the puzzle that is truly lacking is "How is it wired?"
Does the alternator output go to the C post of the 1-2-B switch? Or does it go to the house bank? Is it wired directly to the house bank or to the post(s) on the back of the switch? Different end of same wire, maybe...
Oh, no, just noticed your Blue Seas switch arrangement...
With a Pathmaker (which is a combiner), one would suppose that the AO goes to the house bank, but I've seen some strange installations by "POs."
One can throw a whole bunch of hardware onto a boat, but if it's not wired properly, strange things result.
Please describe how it's wired, and we can continue.
Since you also have AGMs, you should read this (recently added to "Electrical 101") http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=114054 (http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=114054)
BTW... I have considered the possibility of a bad solonoid on the Pathmaker system but I'm uncertain on a method of troubleshooting. Dunno if that's the problem but something else I have considered.
Just put the switch on B. Wait, I just noticed, you can't, 'cuz you have one of those Blue Seas things. But if you combine the banks, that's what a Pathfinder does, so switch the battery switch to combine and tell us what happens. This will determine if the Pathfinder has an issue, which you could do with a simple DVM, too.
Kevin, a couple of other thoughts:
1. The Pathmaker should end up sending current to your reserve bank, so the house bank should get the charge with the Pathmaker relay closing when charging is present. Something sounds backwards.
2. Have you sync'ed your Link? Do you have the manual?
3. Have you read the "Gotcha" Algorithm topic? (If not, go to "Electrical 101" for the link to it.)
4. What voltages are you reading from the charger to the banks? On shorepower. On alternator?
5. Have you sketched out a basic as-you-understand-it wiring diagram?
6. Your photo shows the house bank on, the engine bank on and the "emergency" parallel (cross connect) switch on, too. Why? By doing that you are kinda bypassing the Pathmaker and could making the relay inside it jump.
Kevin : If your True Charge 20 is mounted horizontally - that is wrong!
I talked to Zantrex on that type mounting. They said the unit would not properly cool. It does not have a blower motor and cools by convection in the vertical position. A thought
Fantastic!! I have my homework assignments for the coming weekend and will report back my findings.
Stu - I am very interested in your comment #6 considering the switch settings. That is something that has always bugged me. Could you please explain in more detail what you see should be a correct configuration?
I'm sure Stu is will provide a more complete answer, but basically he is saying the cross connect switch circled in red is doing the same thing the Pathmaker is trying to do....connecting the two banks together. With the cross connect on, there is a direct connection. The pathmaker may sense what is going on, but has no way of controlling the current flow.
Kevin,
From an HT's stand point sounds like the framis is bad and you need to replace the thermovacuubifoggle tube with set screw attachment. And check the muffler bearing too.
Hope you get it figured out,
Ralph
Ciao Bella
Quote from: Ron Hill on August 17, 2011, 09:20:39 AM
Kevin : If your True Charge 20 is mounted horizontally - that is wrong!
I talked to Zantrex on that type mounting. They said the unit would not properly cool. It does not have a blower motor and cools by convection in the vertical position. A thought
I think that it needs a drip shield above it as well?
Tony
Tony : Forget about the drip shield as we can't tell where it is mounted.
Besides it will over heat and destroy itself if it is really mounted horizontally!!
A quick update to answer a couple questions. I had a chance to swing down to the boat this afternoon long enough to look at a couple things and answer some questions:
1. The batteries are approximately 5 years old.
2. When I bought pau Hana, the battery monitor for bank #2 read all Green. It has taken a year for the charge to slowly deteriorate to this point.
3. The indicated charge coltage on the bank while hooked up to shore power is 12.90 volts
4. I isolated and shut down all loads on the boat today and disconnected shore power, shut off battery charger and shut off refrigerator. The link monitor read -00.1 ( I believe that indicates no drain on the batteries)
5. Finally upon a couple recommended observations, I threw the cross connect switch over to 'OFF'. I observed as I did this that the indicated voltage rose to 13.80.
I am hoping that upon Stu's observation that this may allow the pathmaker to do its job and begin a charge on the house bank #1. I wanted to be able to perform the switch change today to see if there is a change by this weekend.
6. Ron, I looked through the Xantrex installation instructions: Table 2.1 does not state that it needs to be installed in a vertical orientation... it mainly talks about ventilation. However, on page 2.8 of the owners manual it talks about mounting on a vertical surface but thats all. Unfortunately the Truecharge 20 was already installed when I bought Pau Hana, and while it is not completely on a vertical surface it is siting at about a 45 degree angle laying down horizontally.
I will check to see if any changes occur over what was done today. I am hoping it is my own stupidity on switch settings and nothing more severe. If there are more suggestions, I'm all ears. :abd:
Battery life depends on how they are used/abused. Most car batteries have a 3-5 year life. It sounds like you have been undercharging them which is not good for long life. I recommend that you get the batteries fully charged and tested. Without knowing the condition of the batteries, you may just be chasing you tail looking for a solution.
Quote from: Kevin Henderson on August 18, 2011, 07:24:12 PM
1. The batteries are approximately 5 years old.
2. When I bought pau Hana, the battery monitor for bank #2 read all Green. It has taken a year for the charge to slowly deteriorate to this point.
3. The indicated charge coltage on the bank while hooked up to shore power is 12.90 volts
4. I isolated and shut down all loads on the boat today and disconnected shore power, shut off battery charger and shut off refrigerator. The link monitor read -00.1 ( I believe that indicates no drain on the batteries)
5. Finally upon a couple recommended observations, I threw the cross connect switch over to 'OFF'. I observed as I did this that the indicated voltage rose to 13.80.
I am hoping that upon Stu's observation that this may allow the pathmaker to do its job and begin a charge on the house bank #1. I wanted to be able to perform the switch change today to see if there is a change by this weekend.
6. Ron, I looked through the Xantrex installation instructions: Table 2.1 does not state that it needs to be installed in a vertical orientation... it mainly talks about ventilation. However, on page 2.8 of the owners manual it talks about mounting on a vertical surface but thats all. Unfortunately the Truecharge 20 was already installed when I bought Pau Hana, and while it is not completely on a vertical surface it is siting at about a 45 degree angle laying down horizontally.
I will check to see if any changes occur over what was done today. I am hoping it is my own stupidity on switch settings and nothing more severe. If there are more suggestions, I'm all ears. :abd:
1. Ken is right. However, try reading and doing "Breaking in New Batteries." There may be hope for you yet. :D
2. & 5. You've been running with what I call the "stupid" Blue Seas panel switch in the WRONG position. I think you've figured it out now.
3. & 4. See 2 & 5 above. Funny how things start to work when you get the switch positions right.
6. Pretty much "no comment." I don't have one, but understand they can take some abuse. And here I thought it was laying sideways only because of the way the picture came out on the screen! :D
Kevin,
1) If your voltage was 12.9 when the cross-connect switch was on, and then the voltage jumped up to 13.8 when you turned the switch off, you might have a problem with the starting battery.
2) If you show -0.1A when everything is turned off, there is either something still turned on, or you have a weird monitor. I have a weird monitor. Mine shows -0.2A when I know everything is turned off. Once a month or so, after I charge up the batteries completely, voltage is up high, and the charger is in the float mode, I re-set the AH to zero. All warning lights go off, and everything returns to normal. The procedure is in the manual. Hope this helps.
Thanks Stu. I was reading over the electrical 101 series last night and saw your comments on the 1-2-B switch compared to the Blue Sea combiner. For now I will live with the Blue Sea and as you said in a thread in 2008:
"I encourage people to understand what they have so they know how to properly use it."
I'm taking that to heart and will be sketching out my wiring diagram ASAP.
Kevin : If you call Xantrax at 08:00 eastern time you can get a couple of great techs that can answer your questions, especially on the horizontal mounting of your Truecharge 20. I never hesitate to call the manufacturer and talk with someone!!
I don't mean to offend anyone but I always talk to the company that made it unit/equipment in question and the least info is taken from the net.
In fact it's time that I restate one of my proverbs:
If you talk to the manufacturer, you are talking to the "horses mouth".
If you are taking your info from the internet/blog, you don't know which end of the horse is speaking !?!
That is a Ronism
Xantrex system as I know it today:
On Thursday I had set the DC parallel switch to the following positions:
House – ON
Engine – OFF
Emergency Cross Connect – OFF
When I left the boat the TrueCharge 20 was supplying a charge. Upon returning to the boat on Saturday I saw the AH indicator on the Link 20 showed -854. This indication meant that the charger had stopped charging shortly after I had made the switch settings.
Since nursing a cold and flu I only had time today to spend a couple hours and make some observations. Since yesterday, the charger once again had stopped at some point from continuing the charge so once again I begin my tests and made the following observations:
At time 1317 readings taken from the link 20.
AH - -854
V – 13.6
A – 7.7
DC parallel switch settings were left the same as indicated earlier.
Time -1432
AH - -850
V – 13.75
A – 3
NOTE: At this time the Link 20 indicates 3.0 Amps. This corresponds to the charging current indicated on the Truecharge 20 (3 amps). However, the Truecharge remote display indicates a "total charger current" of 8 amps with the reefer turned of and 12 Amps with the reefer on.
Time – 1551
AH - -848
V – 13.8
A – 2.1
NOTE: It was at this juncture I observed the charge light had extinguished momentarily and "Total Charge Current" went to 0 A. Then "Total charge current rose to 12 A. The charge light illuminated and charging continued. Comparing amperage at this time I observed:
Link 20 – 2A
Remote Display – 12A
TrueCharge battery Charger – 5A
I have double checked the owner's manuals and have every confidence that the wiring configuration is correct for my installation. Therefore I think I have narrowed things down to the following possibilities:
1 – The battery Charger – The manual states that it should supply a charging current of up to 20 Amps during the bulk charge phase of recharging. I have not observed charging current to reach this level.
2. My 4 house batteries are shot.
3. The Link 20 has been mis-configured through operator error at some point. If is not synchronized with the batteries and configured correctly I could simply be seeing some false readings. But to synchronize you must have fresh fully charged batteries.
Ron: You may be right in that the charger is shot. But I'm still not certain.
Stu: I wished I had taken your advice to heart earlier about understanding all the systems thoroughly
Additionally: What is the difference in the indicated amperage readings between the 3 displays i.e. The Link 20 indicating 2A, the remote display indicating 12A, and the battery charger itself indicating 5A.
Lots to chew on and I'll be making a trip to the boat this week to see if the charging had continued after I left today.
What am I missing and any ideas?
:abd:
Hi Kevin,
If you do find that you need a marine electrician, I have a great one. His name is Alan Katz, his company is Doctor Electron and his number is 858-752-3198. He is a Raymarine certified marine electrician and I guarantee you will like him. He's a great guy!
Mike
Thank you Mike. I may be getting to that point but I'm determined.
I may be taking a battery to Powerstride down in the sports arena area to See if they could test and at least tell me if one battery is any good. I hate to face the possibility of laying out the $$$ for 4 new AGM batteries at $275-$350 each :cry:
If I do find that it's the batteries I may take two of the batteries out of the bank and only use 2 since 4 batteries are probably overkill for my needs.
Has anyone ever done that? Taking 2 out of a 4 battery series parallel bank and safely wrapping the connectors of the 2 unused batteries?
Also trying to get smart on the link 20 owners manual but I'm afraid that my lack of an engineering degree may be a hindrance.
Anybody got a copy of Xantrex link 20 for Dummies? :->
Kevin : As I previously mentioned - call early 0800 in the morning and I've had those techs on the phone till the cell phone battery needed charging.
However, you might wait till you are feeling better and more receptive to tech advice!!
Yes, you can take any number of batteries out of the house bank. You are just lowering it's total AH capacity. With a C34 I wouldn't go below 300AH - if you have a fridge.
The best place I found for GP31 AGM 105AH batteries is at "Batteries +". A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on August 22, 2011, 06:24:48 PM
Kevin : As I previously mentioned - call early 0800 in the morning and I've had those techs on the phone till the cell phone battery needed charging.
However, you might wait till you are feeling better and more receptive to tech advice!!
Yes, you can take any number of batteries out of the house bank. You are just lowering it's total AH capacity. With a C34 I wouldn't go below 300AH - if you have a fridge.
The best place I found for GP31 AGM 105AH batteries is at "Batteries +". A thought
Ron,
Sometimes the "horses mouth" is more full of manure than the internet. :D I am glad you've had good luck with Xantrex tech support. That however is not what I find or hear to be the norm. Xantrex in particular tends to be the laughing stock of the industry in terms of support. Unless it is a current Xantrex product, and not a left over Cruising Equipment, Heart Interface or Trace product, they can barely answer the questions unless looking at their "cookbook", and it's an easy one. Often times when they do answer they are blowing smoke and this I find far more offensive than just saying "I don't know but I will find someone who does."...
I let a tech support guy blow smoke about the Echo Charger for ten minutes one day and when he found out I actually KNEW how the product worked and that I was not just some DIY who would believe his load of BS, he finally stopped talking, stopped with his nonsensical blabber, and tried to get me over to engineering so they could help figure out why this particular Echo was dropping more voltage than any other one I had installed.
The answer was only to be found by opening an old one up and a new one and witnessing different components and a "different" build, perhaps a cheaper one. Engineering was not forthright with the changes they had made to the product and was no help at all. Earlier and later versions did not have this voltage drop issue..
I have not found one tech support person there who even knows how an Echo charger really works except for one guy who has a basic understanding. I have been after them for three years to make the necessary changes to the Echo Charger manual but they drag their feet and have done zip, zero & zilch... I have had multiple conversations with their head of tech support up in BC, a woman named Marainna, multiple emails and long conversations with the guys in tech support & engineering who all agree the manual NEEDS changing but they never do it and only make empty promises so I continue to charge people for service calls where I need to explain to them that the manual is misleading and poorly written.
They do make some good products, the Echo, Link Lite & Link Pro among them, but they have also made some horrendous ones. Their newer chargers have been horribly unreliable, fan and temp issues, and I have switched much of my charger installs to Mastervolt and Victron. Raymarine & Furuno are excellent with tech support these days and Mastervolt is darn good too. Unless I want a good chuckle I rarely call Xantrex anymore unless I can talk directly to engineering.
That being said Xantrex is "trying" to bump up their quality of tech support and they are aware of their reputation when it comes to tech support, and things do change. About 8 years ago I had all but written off Raymarine and they have done a complete 180 while at the same time Garmin has gone down in quality for marine tech support.
I actually find excellent results with the "internet" and get to try this out on a daily basis. You think Xantrex was going to let anyone know about the "gotcha factor" or short fan life with many of their chargers???... :?
Quote from: Kevin Henderson on August 22, 2011, 06:03:33 PM
I hate to face the possibility of laying out the $$$ for 4 new AGM batteries at $275-$350 each :cry:
Kevin,
Don't know about your area but Sam's Club just took on the East Penn / Deka line about a month ago. They sell the SAME EXACT batteries that West Marine does only with a different sticker. The Group 31 AGM at Sam's Club in Scarborough Maine is only $166.00! Still not cheap but a LOT less than the price of the same exact battery at a West Marine...
See this thread:
http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=132350 (http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=132350)
Quote from: Kevin Henderson on August 21, 2011, 09:39:18 PM
NOTE: It was at this juncture I observed the charge light had extinguished momentarily and "Total Charge Current" went to 0 A. Then "Total charge current rose to 12 A. The charge light illuminated and charging continued.
My TrueCharge 40 does the same thing periodically through the charging cycle. My theory is it stops charging periodically to assess battery conditions.
Quote from: Kevin Henderson on August 21, 2011, 09:39:18 PM
Additionally: What is the difference in the indicated amperage readings between the 3 displays i.e. The Link 20 indicating 2A, the remote display indicating 12A, and the battery charger itself indicating 5A.
The Link 20 shows currently flow into/out of the battery. The battery charger provides current to charge the batteries plus anything using electricity. If you turn everything off, the Link 20 should match the charger. I don't know why the remote and charger don't agree. Bad connection?
Quote from: Kevin Henderson on August 21, 2011, 09:39:18 PM
1 – The battery Charger – The manual states that it should supply a charging current of up to 20 Amps during the bulk charge phase of recharging. I have not observed charging current to reach this level.
Before I replaced batteries, I was concerned with my Alternator not producing full charging current. I replaced the batteries and output increased to what I expected. If you have bad batteries, that could be the reason. Also, bulk lasts a very short time, especially if batteries are full.
Regarding replacing the 4 AGM batteries at $275-$350 each, a Sam's club lead-acid golf cart battery is in the $70 range.
The Link 20 shows currently flow into/out of the battery. The battery charger provides current to charge the batteries plus anything using electricity. If you turn everything off, the Link 20 should match the charger. I don't know why the remote and charger don't agree. Bad connection?
Could it be because the Link is reporting NET (like described the Gotcha Algorithm topic: charger on, fridge on...charger 8A, fridge 5A, NET 3A - please, do the math...) while the charger is reporting GROSS output (the 8A).
People keep saying "The battery charger provides current to charge the batteries plus anything using electricity." That hasn't been my experience with my Link 2000. At that stage, most chargers are working off the battery acceptance.
And the DIFFERENCE in the amps between the charger and the Link simply shows this.
When my fridge kicks on when the charger is putting in 8A, the charger DOES NOT go up to 13A (8+5).
Add to that the "analog" (idiot lights) nature of the charger panel compared ot the digital aspect of the Link, and you're comparing apples and oranges.
Kevin, given Maine Sail's excellent AGM report, they are simply NOT for everyone. They require an extensive understanding of electrical and charging systems and most folks just don't have either the knowledge or the equipment investment to take advantage of AGMs advantages. Jim Moe's excellent article, in the wiki, and Maine Sail's superb discussion should be enough to clue you in, as you yourself did say. Just sayin'...
I've read your fine presentation, and am thinking about it. A wiring diagram, to support your "understanding" of what you have, would be a great help for us to help you.
Ron, Xantrex (these days) is a joke, Maine Sail is right. We have more to offer there than they do.
Good luck, Kev, I think you're getting there. How's the wiring diagram coming? :thumb: When was the last time you synchronized the Link?
Hope you're feeling better.
Quote from: Tom Soko on August 19, 2011, 07:33:10 AM
2) If you show -0.1A when everything is turned off, there is either something still turned on, or you have a weird monitor. ... I re-set the AH to zero. All warning lights go off, and everything returns to normal. The procedure is in the manual.
My Link 2000 manual states that there is constant drain of around 0.1A from the unit. That's what I see.
Kevin,
Do yourself a favor if you are trying to understand your electrical system: purchase a digital clamp on ammeter. A good quality meter is less than $60 (Sears) a medium quality meter is less than $20. You can verify your readings and you will have a continuity tester/volt meter too. Nigel Calder books are worth their weight in gold. The easy way is to call and pay for an expert but you won't learn anything. What are you going to do when it craps out away from the dock? Read and if it doesn't sink in, read it again. Good luck.
Len
Stu : I reset my Link 10 to 14.0 V and 1%. After two times of "plugging in" to shore power (Truecharge 40) for about 18 hours with nothing turned on - I never saw the blinking light at said the batteries were "full".
I went back and reset to 13.3V and 2% and within an hour the 100% light "full" was blinking.
During all of these times the Amps read +.2 amps.
Just wanted to pass it on.