The title says it all. We have a Groco HF on our '87 which needs to go. It would appear from various head-threads, that the best option is the Raritan PHII. It looks like the PHC is a closer fit to the Groco HF though. Can anyone tell me whether it is easier install the PHC or the PHII? Also, there were concerns in various threads about clearance to the hull, does anyone know how deep the drill holes are and how much clearance is there?
Thanks
T
PS does anyone know if it is just coincidence that the Raritan models share the initials of the Head Mistress ;) ?
I recently replaced my head with a jabsco compact. When doing my research I saw that people prefer Raritan, but I also found that parts are EXPENSIVE for it.
Since you can get the jabsco for about 1/2 the cost of the raritan, I didn't see it making a lot of sense. The install was easy (no worrying about will it fit, will you need longer hoses, or elbows, etc), and if it dies I can replace the whole thing.
FWIW-I installed a PH II three years ago and have never looked back. I previously had a Jabsco from the PO and it was always an adventure as to whether or not things would go to the holding tank or sit there for a while. I have had no issues and guests, who are intimidated by marine toilets, are able to use it for the most part. Installation required some cutting and fitting of the "skirt" that covers the lag bolts but other than being careful with the drill it was straight forward. All of the previous holes were either used or covered.
I can not comment on the PHC.
It's just a coincidence...one I never noticed before! :D
The PH II and PHC are equally easy/difficult to install. Both use the same pump...both mount using lag bolts...neither mounting bolt pattern will match Groco. They're the same toilet...The owners manual is the same for both. The only difference: the PHC is on a compact base with a shorter handle, to fit in a tighter space.
As for cost comparison...if you go with the "conversion"--everything but the bowl, seat and lid...see it here: http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detail.htm?group=1357&cat=1002 -- you can have a PHC for not a whole lot more than a Jabsco. And while parts for the PH II are a bit more expensive than parts for a Jabsco (although the rebuild kit is actually CHEAPER), they're rarely needed. Keep in mind that parts for a Mercedes or a BMW cost more than parts for Ford Fiesta too.
Keep it lubricated, replace the joker annually (which you should do no matter which toilet you have)...rebuild about every 5-6 years (approx $50)...a PH II pump will last at least 20 years. Or, you can spend $100 a year to replace the Jabsco pump...and before you know it, you'll have invested $500 in a $100 toilet! :clap
I have a PHII sitting in my garage just waiting to be installed by our boat's enthusiastic, hand's on, get-right-to-it skipper. There have been a few major posts about installs of these heads on our boats. One of them mentioned the clearance of the lag bolts to the hull. I believe it also recommended that you simply use a piece of tape on the drill bit to keep it from going too far. Easy to do by checking the clearance using the inboard holes.
noworries: Many, many of us have "been there, done that" with re-buying less expensive heads and have come to the same conclusion that Peggie just presented, which appears on this and many, many other boating 'boards. I have, too, after almost 15 years with three or so W/C Headmates, which worked pretty well and way better than jabscos or Grocos.
It appears to me that the PHII can share the same location for the head outlet, the BIG 1-1/2" hose to the holding tank (I've measured it twice, but have yet to confirm it with the new head in place). That means the only change I have to make is the hose for the inlet to the head pump from the thru hull, since the pump inlet is in the front of the head compared to my existing W/C Headmate. A 90 degree elbow should do the trick, but I'm going to check the pictures provided by the guys earlier on this 'board.
And then the pump to the bowl hose, which goes to the vented loop, is easy.
Heck, I figure I have to change the 3/4" hoses after all these years, anyway, so it's no big deal! :D :D :D
Remember that when you use tape on a drill bit it moves a bit. Check it after each hole (or make a jig out of a piece of wood).
Well fate stepped in and dictated the choice for us. We needed to get it installed this weekend to be ready for an upcoming cruise and the only locally available head was the Jabsco Twist n' Lock which was purchased at W-M with a Defender price match. There were some problems with the install. The existing hose was too high for Jabsco with its 45 deg tail piece. This meant we need to open up the bulkhead hole by 1/2 inch (required purchase of an $18 hole saw). When we reinstalled the existing waste hose, we found it leaked a little. Replaced it with a new one from W-M. The new one leaked uncontrollably (a steady stream-pardon the pun). After inspection of the tailpiece, we realized that the ~5mm plastic injection mold mark was right on the sealing face-duh. Anyway reinstalled the old hose and with two clamps, got it sealed. The other problem was where the rear mounting hole behind the bowl ends up. It is right against the back of the platform. After some more contortionist moves, managed to get my head under the sink to see the hull clearance at that point. It is 0. The liner, without wood backing seems to contact the hull at the rear of the platform. I will wait to drill that hole until the next haulout since I couldn't determine the thickness of the hull or liner there. Will share reports of its performance later.
T
I've never had to spend $100 year working on any toilet. (3 boats ago I put a w/c electric head on it, never had an issue with it for 3 years)
My c27 had a jabsco toilet. I owned it for a little over 2 years, didn't cost me $100/yr. Didn't cost me anything actually in maintenance. It was used on average 2-3 weekends/month.
My c34 I just put a jabsco in it. Cost me $150. Took me 20 minutes or less to install, since that's what I replaced.
If you want to warn people about jabsco products, warn them about their poorly designed macerators, that are held together by 4 bolts that will corrode and fail causing the thing to come apart and spew waste everywhere. I just installed a new macerator today, and all new waste hoses... and wow the boat smells sooo nice inside now. If you have black hoses--swap those suckers out... HUGE difference.
Maybe if you live aboard or eat a lot of curry the other toilet is worth it. I'm not going to argue with anybody about which toilet is better, and I certainly don't want to jinx mine, but saying you're going to spend $100/yr maintaining a jabsco toilet just seems misleading to me.
You'd be amazed at the number of people who replace the pump on a Jabsco toilet every year as preventive maintenance. Jabsco prices rebuild kits at close to the price of a whole pump--sometimes the price of the whole toilet!--to encourage that...they build 'em to be "disposable." Thetford-Norcold has discontinued the entire Wilcox-Crittenden product line, which used to include the Skipper and Imperial--bronze "thrones" built to last 50-100 years with maintenance--because even the W-C Headmate too was too well made to be "disposable" as the Jabsco is, and there's no profit in repair parts. The market for manual toilets has shrunk dramatically in recent years...everybody wants marine toilets to be "like the one at home"...push a button and walk away. The Raritan PHII and PHC are the only good quality manual toilets still made in the US...most likely because Raritan isn't a division of a big conglomerate, they're still a small family owned company. So quality still matters at least a much as the bottom line. Which may explain why the PH II/PHC may cost twice as much as other manual toilets but lasts at least 5x longer. And why it's been rated best in its class for more than 20 years.
All that said, it's YOUR boat, YOUR money...what you choose to do with both doesn't matter to me one bit.
Well I learned a lesson today--never question the queen of sanitation... my lovely new white hoses leak at the toilet. Even with 2 hose clamps on it... I'll try using the heat gun to see if it will seal better... I'm sure if it was a Raritan it wouldn't have leaked!
:D
I think the dissing of the standard Jabsco toilet is a bit overdone. I have just replaced the pump assembly ($80) on my 2004 Jabsco toilet, but only because I wanted the new lock down feature for the base flapper valve. I am keeping the 2004 pump assembly as a backup as it still works fine. The previous Jabsco toilet worked fine for 5 years and I only replaced it in 2004 because a whole new toilet was on sale at WM for $129. Please note that my wife and I spend about 50 nights a year on the hook so this is a toilet that gets a fair amount of use. the only maintenance I have done to my Jabsco toilets is to regularly change the joker valve and occasionally put some lanolin on the pump piston.
Before spending a lot of money and time installing an alternative, be sure that it's really necessary. I think the standard Jabsco is a pretty reliable and inexpensive toilet. And, if I was going to change, I would install a Lavac (http://www.lavac.com/) to reduce the the volume of flushing water required, thus extending the effective capacity of the holding tank.
Heat gun won't help...could make matters worse. Where exactly is the leak? When I know that, I'll know what the fix should be.
Make sure you get one of the clamps over the single barb on the toilet fittings. The shape of the clamps drive housing won't allow it to seal on a smooth tube. If you heat it the clamps will sink into the hose and that doesn't look professional.
It's leaking where the 1.5" waste hose connects to the toilet. I tried adjusting the hose clamp positions as well, but I guess I'll have to pull the hose off and inspect things. Just soooo tired of dealing with these head issues!!!
No : Go to Lowe's and get a can of pipe joint sealant (non hardening) and put that on the solid piece that houses the joker valve and goes into the hose. I'd be carefull with that heat gun and I agree with Peggy that you could do more damage.
When working with that white sanitary hose I like to soften it up with warm water NOT a heat gun.
Quote from: noworries on June 13, 2011, 07:28:20 AM
It's leaking where the 1.5" waste hose connects to the toilet.
Iow, where the discharge fitting connects to the pump housing? I suspected as much. It's one of three things...and the following applies to ALL manual toilets:
1. The flange on the joker valve is the gasket that creates the seal between the discharge fitting and the pump housing. OVERtightening the screws will pucker that gasket, causing the connection to leak. So unless doing that has permanently puckered the joker valve, backing out the screws a quarter turn should stop the leak. If it doesn't try soaking the joker valve in boiling water for a few minutes to see if it fixes the pucker. If it doesn't, it'll cost you new joker valve.
When you attach the discharge fitting, just tighten the screws enough to start to feel a little tight...flush the toilet. If it doesn't leak, they're tight enough. If it does, tighten NO MORE THAN another quarter turn. Flush again...and keep tightening NO MORE THAN a quarter turn till the leak stops.
2. You used a straight fitting where a 90 is needed, causing the hose to pull to one side, lifting the fitting on the other side.
Replace the fitting with a 90 to relieve the stress.
3.. You overtightened the screws enough to crack the pump housing. Easy to do on a Jabsco toilet, but possible on any toilet if you crank 'em down hard enough.
Only cure is a new toilet pump. :cry4
NEVER use ANY pipe dope, or any other sealant in a sanitation system! And while a heat gun should be used only by someone who's highly skilled with one, a blow dryer is safe (unless you're brain dead!) and a lot easier to use than boiling water.
Guys : I'm heading for another "RON, RON'" from Peggy !!
I use non harding pipe dope on any water fitting that will not seal itself with just a snug tightened hose clamp. It's better than overtightening the hose clamps!! It's best the also stagger the hose clamps if space allows and have the hose clamp over a barb rib.
As I said WARM water is best for softening hose NOT boiling water.
Quote from: noworries on June 12, 2011, 08:05:54 PM
Well I learned a lesson today--never question the queen of sanitation... my lovely new white hoses leak at the toilet. Even with 2 hose clamps on it... I'll try using the heat gun to see if it will seal better... I'm sure if it was a Raritan it wouldn't have leaked!
:D
Gee, seems like a little thread drift here. Surprised you're not complaining about it... :D
Nice "signature" BTW... :D
If it was a Raritan, it would've leaked a bit at first, but then been cured by turning 1/4 a turn on the hose clamps, just like Peggie says... :D
Sorry to hear about your transmission problem.
Not the hose clamps, Stu...it's over-tightening the SCREWS that hold the discharge fitting on the pump body that cause the gasket (joker valve flange) to pucker and leak..
Gee, seems like a little thread drift here. Surprised you're not complaining about it...
Talk about "thread drift", from the title I thought we were discussing the Grateful Dead, not the Grateful Head.
Well technically I didn't hijack it... I just casually mentioned mine leaked and wanted to undo the bad karma for questioning Peggy's wisdom.
Besides us Jabsco toilet equipped C34s in Long Beach have to stick together!
I'm going down to the boat today... hopefully I'll figure it out. I don't think I cracked anything, so I'm guessing it's just an overtightening issue, or I'll try either hot water from the shower or the heat gun (carefully)
That and I'm flushing the tranny to see if it helps... not looking forward to that!
BTW 2nd wish if you are in Shoreline I probably have a hole saw you can borrow, save ya the $18.
I'm with Peggy. I went with the PHC conversion kit and couldn't be happier! The difference between it and a Jabsco in flushing is like night and day. The shorter handle fits perfectly in the same location.
Guys and Peggy : I don't know about other head companies, but Jabsco uses a stainless self tapping screw to hold things together!! These strange threaded screw go into a plastic mating piece together and make their own threads.
The problems come with reassembly - it's NOT overtightening that gets people in trouble. If you don't get that screw started correctly it will litterally make some new threads and totally "clean out that hole" so there are NO threads at all.
What I do is to start the screw with my fingers by turning backwards until I feel the "click" to let me know the screw is in the old thread. Then tighten with your fingers a couple of turns. THEN use a hand screwdriver and NEVER use and electric screwdriver.
As Peggy mentioned - don't over tighten. A few thoughts
I had to take one of the hose clamps off to get it to stop leaking
I forget where I recently read this, but someone drilled a hole through the plastic and just used a nut and bolt to put the Jabsco parts together (for the very reason that it became stripped).
noworries-We had exactly the same leak problem. The Jabsco tailpiece fitting to the 1.5 inch hose is flawed (the round injection mold mark is on the sealing face) making it nearly impossible to seal with a hose clamp. We used a new hose from W-M which simply would not seal. Ron's suggestion makes sense to me. We played with it for an hour and eventually went back to the old hose to actually seal it. I have no doubt that it will begin to leak again at the most inopportune moment. I am now equipped with a 2.5 " hole saw. We will be at Catalina this weekend.
T
I think I recall seeing a faint line from the injection mold... I'll try sanding it down if it leaks again... SO TIRED of dealing with it.. the boat stinks again... going to have to thoroughly clean once I'm sure it's done leaking. SO TIRED of cleaning.
We won't be back to Catalina until the rendezvous. We're hosting a boat for transpac and seeing them off on the 4th.
Hope ya have no head issues at the island! Have a good trip!
I'm glad that Roc tweaked my brain. I put a "Tip" in the Mainsheet tech notes on using a nut and bolt to hold head pieces together when the plastic is stripped.
I've done it a couple of times myself -- it works in stopping the leaks!!