I have been having an increase in engine vibration fur the last few months and at first thought that it was related to the recent cutless bearing replacement but on closer inspection I've found that my forward starboard motor mount is bad.
Also Ken Heyman pointed out while he was visiting with us a while back, some water that was around the muffler at the exhaust riser hose connection. I traced this later to a small hole in the exhaust riser, just above the hose connection which I was able to temporarily fix with epoxy putty.
So, it looks like it's time to replace motor mounts along with the exhaust riser and hump hose.
I've been reading the threads and it looks like most are using the vetus k50 or k75. Is there a better choice of one over the other? Has anyone tried to use the factory mounts from Universal?
On the exhaust riser, will the one from Catalina Direct be OK? As others have noted, Catalina Parts requires that you send the old one to them to copy, Catalina Direct doesn't. I'm concerned that the one I get will fit and do I need to replace the flange or reuse the old one.
Catalina Direct looks like the best source for the 8" hump hose, which I understand will reduce vibration as well.
Any help will be appreciated,
Mike
Mike,
Exhaust riser:
1. Here's the link to my 2003 riser replacement in Tech Notes: http://www.c34.org/mainsheet/pdf/Feb_2004.pdf (http://www.c34.org/mainsheet/pdf/Feb_2004.pdf), and an earlier topic: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5846.0.html
(http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5846.0.html)
2. Here's a picture of the flange when we removed the riser in 2008 to get rid of the blow by. We were able to reuse the existing flange. Don't forget to buy TWO gaskets, read the link above.
3. Be careful about ordering from Catalina Direct. They're good, but unless you KNOW what they're offering, you must be aware that there were two versions, one for the Mark Is and a different one for the Mark IIs. I'd call call them to confirm since it's hard to tell from the pictures on their website what they are offering. Your Mark I will need one like the photo below with the bend to get to the flange. I ordered mine from Catalina without sending the old one in, I spoke to Robert Butler in 2003 and faxed him the drawing, also shown below.
Hump Hose
CD seems to be only place to get it these days. 1 5/8". Picture below with old broken riser.
Mike : Lets take your questions one by one:
On the exhaust riser much has been written. I'd go with Catalina (send them your old one) or have it made locally so you can get an exact match of the old risers' dimensions. You can use the old flange and most important is that the flange has the same orientation as the old one. Catalina factory & locally will do that - you'll have to do it if you go with Catalina Direct.
The biggest problem with the re-installation is making sure that the mating portions for the flange on the engine MUST be perfectly clean before installing the gasket. As I mentioned 15+ years ago - get 2 or 3 gaskets ($2.50) as they are very easy to screw up. Get new hardware (nuts/bolts) for the top two studs and new for the bottom - as you'll probably have rounded the heads and it will save you grief in the future.
On engine mounts - I'd use K 50s on the front and K75s on the rear. Or just get K75s all around. If other M25XP owners have changed out their mount they really haven't shared their outcome. I sure wouldn't get new ones of the same make as the OEM originals were!! Any other mount would be better than those!!
A few thoughts
Thanks, Stu and Ron.
BTW, the OEM mounts are $150, and the Vetus mounts are $76.50
Mike : I have a couple of thoughts I want to pass on.
When you get the new stainless riser make sure that the nipple for the raw water entry is stake welded on the inside. That's extra reinforcement.
Use a nylon reinforced NOT wire reinforced 5/8" hose for the raw water from the anti syphon to the nipple in the riser. The wire reinforced hose will transmit all of the engine vibrations to that nipple. The nylon hose (on the exhaust side with no acute turns) will transmit less engine vibration to that nipple = less stress on that nipple.
Both of the above are designed to get increased life out of the riser, as that nipple weld is usually the first thing to go.
When you install the riser, make sure that there isn't too much insulation on the engine end of the riser so it puts pressure on the heat exchanger. Take a Dollar Bill an make sure that there is clearance between the two!
A few thoughts. :thumb:
Mike,
When I replaced the motor mounts on Julandra (M25XP), I used K75s on all four corners. The results were spectacular. Much quieter and smoother. As Ron has described in the past, you will need to ream out one of the two holes on each mount to allow for adjustment. Easy to do with a round file or Dremel. Not that big of a project, but it made a HUGE difference.
I'm not sure I understand how the exhaust riser works.
One of the instrustions in changing it says to drain the antifreeze out of the manifold. I thought that only sea water was going through the riser to the muffler along with exhaust gasses. Am I missing something? Do I really need to drain the antifreeze?
Also, looking at the motor mounts, it looks like the hardest one to get to is the rear port side. Can they be changed without disconnecting the shaft and if the exhaust riser has to be disconnected, I would think they should be done at the same time.
'Splain it to me :shock:
Mike
Quote from: Mike and Joanne Stimmler on November 18, 2010, 11:33:44 AM
I'm not sure I understand how the exhaust riser works.
One of the instrustions in changing it says to drain the antifreeze out of the manifold. I thought that only sea water was going through the riser to the muffler along with exhaust gasses. Am I missing something? Do I really need to drain the antifreeze?
'Splain it to me
Mike the exhaust gas comes out of the aft of the manifold. The riser attaches to the flange which is bolted with the three bolts (the hardest one is the bottom one) to the back of the manifold. The manifold is also full of the freshwater (antifreeze) coolant.
The water that goes to the exhaust riser nipple comes from the HX and goes to the nipple under your head sink. That's seawater.
Clear enough?
When we redid ours, we didn't carefully install the gasket between the manifold and the riser flange (the bottom hole in the green gasket is very, very close to the edge of the material). When we started up it began to leak that green antifreeze.
That's why you need to drain the antifreeze. Do what I suggested in the burping thread, (Reply #6: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4518.0.html) and remove it through the hose under the freshwater engine pump right from the front. Much easier and less messy than the block or the HX connections.
So Stu, I still have the frozen bottom bolt on my riser I posted about some time ago. I was intending to deal with the issue after the boat was on the cradle. If I understand you correctly, I will lose the antifreeze out of the manifold when and if I finally get the riser off. Correct? I understand that the manifold has antifreeze but was not aware that the antifreeze comes out where the exhaust does or does it come out where you remove the three bolts? Just trying to avoid a mess
Mark Mueller
Mike : Let me try to explain the exhaust riser and the flange that attaches to the engine. This is only true for the M25 & M25XP engines.
The piece on the top port side of the engine with the "radiator cap" is a duel functioning unit. The top part is a reservoir that hold the 50/50% Prestone water mix for the engines internal coolant. The bottom part of that unit attaches to the side of the engine and is the exhaust manifold from the cylinders.
So when you remove the flange & gasket (3 nuts) at the rear of the "reservoir unit" there will be two openings. The top one will be to the the coolant chamber and the bottom is to the exhaust from the cylinders. The gasket that I talked about is solid to cover the coolant opening and has a square hole for the exhaust to go thru. (I suspect it was made like this because it was a sand casting and the coolant hole was where they got the sand out - this is my assumption)
The gasket is duel purpose: to seal the coolant in the reservoir and seal the exhaust gases so they go out the riser pipe - eventually to the muffler.
That's why it's important to make sure that you drain the coolant before you remove the flange and the old gasket, because if you don't the coolant will run out and soak the port rear engine mount. Draining the coolant is no big deal. You can do it as Stu suggests or use the petcock on the starboard side of the engine just under the injection pump. Attach a hose to the petcock , open it and with the cap off the coolant will drain out into your container. Still use plenty of rags under the flange to catch any residual coolant .
When you put the new gasket back ON, make sure that both metal surfaces are ABSOLUTELY CLEAN !!
When the engine is running the raw water moves thru the HX and cools the 50/50% internal mix that is inside tubing - the raw water flows on the outside of those tubes. The heated raw water goes out of the HX to the antisyphon valve and then is injected into the hot air exhaust gases (thru the nipple in the riser) just before they both enter the muffler.
Hope you now understand the way the riser/HX work.
Now picture me taking all of this apart (by myself) 15+ years ago, no internet, nothing written and no one to ask. When the coolant started to leak I learned fast!!
A few thoughts. Good Luck!!
Like this
Thanks Stu, your pictures clarify things. Looks like the riser flange blocks the 50/50 antifreeze and just passes the exhaust gasses but when the flange is taken off, there is an opening to the reservoir that would allow the antifreeze to pour out if you didn't drain it.
I think I've got it and thanks to all that helped.
Mike
Mike : Yes, it's the combination of the gasket and the flange pressing against the gasket that holds the antifreeze coolant in the reservoir.
Stu's second picture also shows bluish green residue of the old gasket yet to be cleaned off. You'll find that residue on both the flange and the back of the reservoir. BOTH surfaces must be clean to get a good seal. The back of the reservior is difficult to get to !!
As I mentioned before, it's better to have thin insulation on the riser just above the HX or the flange will not completely seat!! Catalina really screwed me up as they put a thick layer on the my replacement riser. I seated the gasket, inserted the flange and tightened everything down. As I was refilling the reservoir I noted that the coolant was running out!! The insulation wouldn't let me tighten the bottom nut completely to the gasket & reservoir. That's why you need to make a "dry run" in attaching the riser and make sure that you can slide a $1 bill between the bottom of the riser and the top of the HX.
Really not that difficult. Just Don't forget the hump hose and the nylon reinforced hose to the nipple.
Thanks guys, In this case a picture is worth about four million words. We just finished having AC installed (16000 btu) and have discovered some major problems in the electrical panel (more on this later), as a result so the riser issue is on hold until late Feb or March. I would have had the riser issue handled except for the frozen bottom nut! I will keep soakiing with PB over the winter, but I really think I will have to use a nut splitter on it.
Mark Mueller
I was able to get the exhaust riser off last week thanks to the help of this board. :clap
First I used multiple liberal applications of PB Blaster with a Q-tip and at first was able to get the two top nuts loose but not the bottom one so I re-tightened the top ones and went out for a day sail and after motoring back in and another application of PB Blaster and waiting about an hour, I was able to loosen the bottom nut with a box wrench from the port side of the motor.
My idea here was to let the heat of the engine help the PB Blaster to penetrate the nut and it seems to have worked.
I was then able to get the old non hump hose off after removing the (double)clamps and twisting the hose with channel lock pliers at both ends and the 3/8 inch water inlet to loosen it and was then able to slide the old hoses off without having to cut them. As mentioned in other posts, you must be careful with the hose connection at the muffler so you don't crack it.
I was able to separate the flange from the engine by simply wiggling the riser from under the sink. The clearance was a little tight moving the flange end away from the engine because the lower flange stud is a little longer than the top two but with a helper we were able to remove the riser through the door under the sink. We really didn't try to remove it through the engine compartment, and it may be possible, but it just seemed easier from under the sink.
I have already sent the old riser to the Catalina factory and am waiting for its return.
One question is can I/should I use a permatex type gasket compound on the flange gasket? That question also goes for the gasket on the raw water pump cover.
I just got the 4 new K75 engine mounts in the mail so I will try to schedule doing both jobs at the same time since I think the exhaust flange has to be off to do the motor mounts.
I'll let you know how the rest goes.
Mike
Mike : You don't need anything on that exhaust flange gasket, if you have two CLEAN surfaces !!
The same goes for the raw water pump gasket. The paper thin gasket will do the job.
When you take the face plate off check it for indentation wear from the impeller. It's always a good idea to take some 500 grit wet/dry paper, wet it and on a flat surface polish the inside of the face plate. That will give you a better seal of the impeller to the face plate.
I now have the new exhaust riser and vetus K75 motor mounts and expect to be working on it this weekend.
Some questions are:
I'm assuming that the new lag bolts on the motor mounts should be stainless, is this right?
And are these 3/8 x 2" or 2 1/2" ?
I see that the 5/8 hose from the anti-siphon to the exhaust riser should be non-reinforced but how about the 5/8 hose from the anti-siphon to the HX? Should I also check or replace the anti-siphon while I'm in there?
When I removed the 3 nuts off the flange, I only wound up with 2 flat washers, there was none on the bottom. Again I'm assuming there should be one for each stud, right?
Thanks again for any help,
Mike
Mike : Let me take your questions one at a time :
1. The lag bolts should be stainless and (as I recall) 1/2" shorter than the ones in place on the old mounts. I believe that 2" are correct. ( I did that job 12 years ago so forgive my memory)
2. Both hoses should be non reinforced, because they are on the exhaust side of a pump and neither make an acute turn. The hose form the HX to the anti syphon can be reinforced hose.
3. Check the nuts to make sure they are not "rounded off" from removal - if they are rounded/worn replace them. I'd use a flat washer and a new lock washer on all three studs.
4. You don't need to replace the anti syphon, but it does need to be checked to make sure it's operating correctly. Remove the cap on the top and examine the small "duck bull" valve to make sure it opens and closes tight. You might want to replace that valve as a "just in case".
Good Luck
Thanks, Ron
Final followup on this post.
My mechanic finished replacing the K75 motor mounts and the exhaust riser two weeks ago and all went well. As a note, the mechanic also messed up the first riser gasket, so it was good that I ordered three. :D Now I have a spare one. There was no problem with the clearance between the heat exchanger and the riser pipe, but he did say it was a pain to get the bottom bolt on (although I didn't have any trouble getting it off except for having to use multiple applications of PB Blaster over a two day period).
There was a VERY NOTICEABLE difference in the now smooth running engine, which I'm sure was attributed to replacing both of these items.
Thanks again for all the advice, ideas and help from the folks on this board.
Couldn't have done it (as good) without you.......well..I guess the mechanic helped a little too!
Mike
Mike and Ron,
I recently purchased a 1987 C34 with a dead M25XP. I've located a M25 for a reasonable price and I'm in the process of soda blasting, repainting, replacing hoses, and general servicing before changing the engines. I've read and learned a lot about the engine on this thread and thank both of you for blazing the trail and sharing your knowledge. Hopefully, it will prevent me from making some painful mistakes.
I have a couple questions and hope either or both of you are up to answering them. 1) You've mentioned an anti-siphon valve on the raw water discharge to the mixing elbow. I do not have one on the engine I purchased. Where is it located? 2) I suspect I'll have to use the exhaust riser from the existing M25XP when I install the M25 since the latter came out of a C30. From photos and physical inspection of my engines the risers appear to be different. Should I go ahead and try to crack the nuts on the fitting connecting the exhaust manifold to the exhaust riser prior to swapping engines? And if so, where do I purchase the gasket?
Look forward to your reply.
Thanks, James
James :
1. The anti syphon valve is on the "exhaust" water line from the Heat Exchanger and is mounted high on the engine wall under the head sink. Then the out side of the anti syphon goes into the nipple on the exhaust riser (just before the intake to the muffler).
2. The exhaust riser is related to the boat, placement of the engine and the muffler; so you'll have to use the M25XP riser.
3. Don't want to spoil your hopes, but I wouldn't go thru all the effort to put a 26+? year old engine in a boat!! Yes, you can look at engine hours and cost, but just remember that the seals, internal water pump and everything on that engine is OLD!!
Guess it all depends on how long you plan on keeping the boat?!? A few thoughts
What Ron was trying to say was....your current engine is dead. Why do you want to replace it with an engine older than the dead one, and has less horsepower?
Boat bucks are hard to come by... it will cost more, but perhaps replacing with a new Beta engine will save you from replacing the replacement engine in a couple of years. Unless it has been totally rebuilt,you have no idea of the actual condition of the engine. Does it come with a warranty?
new Beta's do and have a great track record.
No association with beta..but I would rather spend a day sailing than working on engines.
PS..rebuilding engines is a winter time passion. Wouldn't think twice if I was doing the work. But, given a choice, I'd rather be sailing.
Quote from: Hugh17 on July 20, 2014, 06:15:44 AM
Mike and Ron,
I recently purchased a 1987 C34 with a dead M25XP. I've located a M25 for a reasonable price and I'm in the process of soda blasting, repainting, replacing hoses, and general servicing before changing the engines. I've read and learned a lot about the engine on this thread and thank both of you for blazing the trail and sharing your knowledge. Hopefully, it will prevent me from making some painful mistakes.
I have a couple questions and hope either or both of you are up to answering them. 1) You've mentioned an anti-siphon valve on the raw water discharge to the mixing elbow. I do not have one on the engine I purchased. Where is it located? 2) I suspect I'll have to use the exhaust riser from the existing M25XP when I install the M25 since the latter came out of a C30. From photos and physical inspection of my engines the risers appear to be different. Should I go ahead and try to crack the nuts on the fitting connecting the exhaust manifold to the exhaust riser prior to swapping engines? And if so, where do I purchase the gasket?
Look forward to your reply.
Thanks, James
Hugh,
What is wrong with the XP? Why dead? How dead?
Remember that the M-25 and XP are basically the same engine except for the cylinders -- so nearly all external parts on the M will fit the XP and so you potentially have a lot of spares.
Regarding the riser, I don't know what your budget and situation is, but you might consider installing the Westerbeke wetted riser if you need to geta new riser anyway. It's sweet and we currently have several C30-ers upfitting to it right now. So far, one XP, one on a Beta 20, in process on an XP and an XPB. It involves:
Trashing the leak-prone, weak seamed aqualift.
A new wetted 2" outlet riser (runs COOL. more sea water mixing, no insulation needed, will not rust out, etc.)
Routing the sea water discharge (from the injection elbow over to the wetted riser.)
A new 2" side inlet/2" top outlet Centek muffler.
The hose fixins' to make it work (using silicone elbows, some vernatube.)
Relocating (optional) the C30 exhaust hose out of the galley cabinet (real sweet for usable storage there!)
Adapting the 2" x 1-5/8" adapter from the muffler outlet back to the 1-5/8" hose.
The M and XP are, as I said, basically identical engines except for bore, CID, and HP. The exhaust manifold is identical, as is the exhaust flange. The one difference may be the shape of the bell housing and how the Hx mounts - some XP were identical to the M, but later the XP bell housing is a little different. Can you post pics? What I am getting at is -- because the engines are near identical, the exhaust manifold outlets are the same (NOT so for the XPB).
Ken K
Ken,
I just removed the exhaust riser and water lift muffler, as said in previous posts the information on this site was invaluable. Using PB blaster and patience made the whole process go rather smoothly. My mechanic said the mounts were good but they are original OEM mounts and I plan to change them to K75s based on the positive comments made by others that have used them.
I have run into an issue, I removed the lag bolts from the front mounts and found one of the lightbulbs was considerably shorter than the other three. It looks almost like the shorter one is broken but can't understand why it would be tapered at the end, I talked to the PO and he had the motor mounts changed a few years ago. I plan to head back to the boat later today to see if one of longer bolts will work in the hole that the shorter bolt came out of. When I closely examined the shorter bolt I can also see Epoxy on the end of it. My fear is there may be a lag bolt brokeN off in the hole. I don't want to have to pull the engine just to drill out that hole. It had previously been suggested to put a bundle of toothpicks what are your thoughts?
Pics of the lag bolts I removed.
Ed : After you check the boat, let us know if there is any reason that a shorter bolt was use and the hole is ready for a longer bolt.
The shorter bolt looks like a regular lag-bolt and not modified.
My thought
Checked and tried a longer lag bolt, it went in a little further but then started to slant. There is something down there but tough to take a pic, I tried. My guess is there is part of a lag bolt down there. Since the motor is in the boat it is really close to impossible to drill... Thinking it out but any suggestions are welcome.
I used one of these to drill a new mount hole with the engine still in the boat:
http://www.amazon.com/Ryobi-Cordless-Battery-Charger-Included/dp/B008E76BZ4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1456582989&sr=8-1&keywords=ryobi+90+degree+drill
"No project is worth doing unless you can buy a new tool" :thumb:
Craig
For one shot use where you don't want to drop a days transient fee.... here's another option
http://www.harborfreight.com/38-in-90-angle-drill-attachment-69337.html
Ed : Here's another idea.
I don't know how much distance there is between the engine mount bracket and the engine bed stringer, but see if this might work. Take a piece of 1/2" aluminum and mount the K75 engine mount on it. Then use the outer hole in the engine bracket on the engine for the mount. Drill the 1/2" aluminum piece and lag-bolt it to the engine bed rails. if necessary you can gouge out the bed rail fro the bolt head under on underside of the aluminum.
A thought
Nice workaround, Ron!
I was thinking of filling the current hole with epoxy then using a shorter lag bolt but was concerned it might not be long enough to get a good bite.
Thanks for the idea of using a 90 deg drill or adapter. I think I am gonna try a small hole saw to see if I can extract what is broken off in the hole. If that works then I can use the original hole by filling it with epoxy then re drill for a new lag bolt.
If that does not work then the idea of the 1/2 in aluminum is the next option. I can always use counter sunk Allen bolts so it will sit flush on the stringer without having to make holes for the hex heads.
Without pulling the engine there is just much room to work with.
I will keep everyone posted.
Ed,
I'm not saying this is for your situation -- just passing along info.....
What some C-30 owners have done is drill out the stringer and sink/epoxy upside-down bolts (w/ add'l nuts/washers for bite) so there's a stud instead of a hole for a lag. Alternately, sinking/epoxy in long coupling nuts in the stringer to accept a machine bolt, instead of a lag bolt.
Ken
I made some progress.
Plan A: I bought the 90 deg drill adapter from Harbor Freight but it is too tight a fit to get a hole saw properly positioned to drill it out.
Next idea,
Plan B step 1: I loosened the large nuts on the stud coming out the top of the motor mount and was able to rotate the base just enough to give me access to the hole where the broken lag bolt is in the stringer. (front mount, front hole starboard side) I then took a Dremel and excavated the hole enough to see the top of the lag bolt, it is about 1 in below the top of the stringer. My plan is to use the Dremel and either grind it down or excavate enough to dig it out.. A long tedious process but I am determined.
Plan B step 2: I then plan to insert a thick plastic straw in the center of the hole and fill around the outside of the straw with epoxy (the void left by the straw should act just like a pilot hole).
Any thoughts on my plan?
Might work; just make sure the straw is not too big in diameter and that you have enough clear area-- expoxy or not-- for new lag bolt to have pleanty of bite."bite". When you get all of this finally sorted out, make sure your alignment, etc. is good. Some issue caused your engine to "walk" on the mounts-- to cause the PO to resort to through bolting the aft bolts and all that other drama. Even the OEM mounts, with a properly aligned, well-maintained engine--should not cause it to rip out the bolts or elongate the holes--like you have been dealing with--broken lag bolt aside. Caveat: I am NOT a mechanic!
Sorry for having the same discussion on two threads... Got a bit confusing..
I"m not sure why the issues with the engine walking. The mechanic I had look at the engine said there was little maintenance done over the years. He is going to do the alignment and adjust the valves showing me along the way.
My plan is to get the engine setup correctly and keep an eye out for any other issues.