Searched the wiki and have not seen this issue before. I am getting engine cooling water/antifreeze mixture in the aft compartment of the bilge. I have carefully checked all hoses and connections around the engine, heat exchanger and find nothing. I have checked the hose connections from the engine to the back of the water heater and find no leaks. When I use a mirror and look under the sink cabinet I can see the hoses and they are dry. (Yes Stu, they look new, not like the ones you pulled from under your cabin sole!) I have checked for chafe where the hoses go thru the floor of the sink cabinet, all dry. But there is coolant dripping from the end of the boards that form the base for the sink cabinet and the floor under the settee where the water heater and batteries are located. Since this is in the area under the water heater, there has to be a leak associated with the heater. I see nothing on the back of the heater where the hose connects, completely dry.
The Seaward manual that I have has a great exploded view of the front of the hot water tank, but not the back. Since there is no evidence of water on the outside of the square case, is it possible that the coolant is leaking inside the case between the case and the water tank, then coming out of the case on the bottom (which I can't see unless I remove the water tank) finding its way to the bilge? Anyone had a similar problem before?
Then a final question, has anyone removed the hot water tank from a MKII? It appears to me that the only way it will come out is to remove the batteries and rotate it 90 degrees so it will come up thru the settee seat access hole. This is looking like my next step.
Jack
Jack - What about your cabin heater that your dealer installed that runs off the engine loop?
Craig
Craig,
I did check that as well. It is in the center compartment under the settee and has no opening to the bilge. The one splice connection the dealer made is tight and not leaking. Thanks for the thought. I don't recall seeing anyone with a MKII having HWT problems - yet.
Jack
I'm not familiar with the MKII set up, is it possible to disconnect both the engine coolant hoses from the back of the water heater and then rejoin to make the loop without the water heater? If it still leaks, then it's not the heater.
Ken, that is a great thought. The hose connections are difficult to get to but it can be done. Will give that a try. I thought about disconnecting them from the engine and installing a shunt there, but there would still be a lot of coolant in the lines.
Thanks, Jack
Hi Jack,
Did you ever work out where the leak came from. We have a MkII and since we launched this season, we've had a leak from the same area under the section between the galley and the battery storage area. The hot water tank and it's connections all look and feel dry and under the sink all the plumbing feels dry. The coolant hoses look in great shape as well. I hope I won't have to pull out everthing under the sink just to find the source, but I don't see another way.
Thanks, Fred.
Hi Fred,
Tightening the connections on the back side of the hot water tank (had to remove the drawer cabinet to do it) solved that problem, no more coolant coming from under the galley. Then when I thought I had finished with that issue, more coolant was finding it's way into the bilge. That turned out to be a loose coolant connection on the port end of the heat exchanger. It was very loose and it had never been touched before. Tightened that and now no more coolant in the bilge. You might want to check those on both ends carefully. It was actually hard for me to find that.
Jack
Guys : A word of caution.
When you continue to tighten the small 1/2" hoses/clamps on to plastic fittings, you will tend to make the connection more oblong than round!!
I've found that with the water especially the hot water/water heater fittings, that the use of some "thread sealant/pipe dope" is invaluable on keeping the fitting from leaking.
A thought
So, I just got back from a week vacation on the boat and this leak has definitily got me stumped. From what I'm reading online and in the manual, the hotwater heating loop is filled with coolant, which I'm assuming is the same thing as the pink antifreeze that I top up in the container in the port lazarette. However the leaking fluid is not pink and more copious. Within a few minutes the dripping filled a small yoguart cup. The contants were clear (slightly brownish/dirty), with no noticable odour. No, I did not taste it, but it certainly did look like water.
Now if the "coolant" that is being exchanged between the heater and the engine is water, then I'm thinking my hot water heater hoses are shot and need replacing as per Stu's noted critical upgrade. If not, then I'm stuck. The hose connections below the galley are all solid and drip dry. While i can't get my fingers everywhere around the hot water tank, I have been able to push paper towels around the base, which has pulled away dry everytime. The two thru hulls are also dry. Yet somewhere just starboard of the batteries there is dripping coming out from between the plywood floor/base.
I'm feeling that I may need to pull the hot water tank just to see. What a pain that would be.
Any thoughts?
Thanks, Fred.
In your other post you mentioned the leaking stanchion vent. Could this be from the starboard stanchion vent that is for the water tank?
Hi Stu,
On the MkII we only had a stanchion vent on the port side for the head. Our water tanks are vented either through the chainlocker for the forward one, and aft out the transom for the aft tank.
We do get the usual small dripping from the stuffing box, but not this. I can see it dripping down from the plywood when I look up from within the bildges.
Fred,
There is a drain hose at the bottom of the refridgerator that leads to a petcock under the trashcan. Could that be leaking? You said you were on the boat for a week, and I assume, you had the refridgerator stocked. You said you filled a yogurt cup of liquid. Maybe it's the refridgerator drain hose clamp that needs tightening? Not the section at the petcock, but the connection right under the refrigerator, that is starboard of the batteries.
Hi Roc,
I did not check that... I'll look at it this weekend hopefully. That said, our frig is pretty dry, with only a bit of condensation. Not enough to fill the bildges. That yogurt cup was filled in under five minutes.
Is it possible for the hot water tank to develop a "crack" and leak out from below? Am I correct in believeing that it isn't the hot water coolant hoses if i don't see the "pink stuff"?
Quote from: fkoehlmann on July 10, 2012, 04:31:48 AM
Am I correct in believeing that it isn't the hot water coolant hoses if i don't see the "pink stuff"?
Hi,
I'm not an expert, but when you are referring to the Pink Stuff, that should be ''Plumbing anti-freeze''. The stuff you put in the plumbing for winter.
Engine coolant should be more like a green color.
Long Lasting engine coolant is reddish in color, so yes, it could be engine coolant antifreeze. Other than the refrigerator drain clamp, the other hoses in that area is the shower sump. About winter 'Pink Stuff', could it be residual winterization antifreeze that is coming out of the refridgerator drain hose? I pour pink stuff in the refridgerator during winterization to displace any water that may have accumulated over the season. Fred, don't know if you do that too. You said you put paper towels under the hot water heater and they come up dry. Try leaving them there for a while to see if they become saturated. The other option is just to take off the couple of screws that hold the hot water tank down and tilt it up to see if you can notice anything underneath.
I like the idea of leaving the towels under the water heater for a while - leaks are funny and might show up in different circumstances. I thought that it might work better to use an oil discharge pad (you know, a diaper) because it might hold up better if you left it there for a while? Good luck on finding the leak.
Since you now think it is water rather than coolant, you need to consider whether you had a winterization issue with your tank. A member of our club with a MKII had to switch out a hot water tank after one winter. It is important to get ALL of the water out each winter with our temperatures: I use a dinghy pump to blow the last of the water out after draining it.
Tony
Hi Tony,
You might be right. I did use a shopvac this last fall, instead of using the old antifreeze primarily because I thought I would try something different because the Admiral seems to be able to taste the stuff even after multiple flushings in the spring. So maybe I didn't get everthing. I guess I could test this by draining all the water tanks and see if the leak stops.
Here's my HWT winterization routine:
1) Disconnect the cold water intake and the hot water output hoses. Use the backflow preventer to join these two hoses directly.
2) Drain the HWT using the drain valve, and let the bilge pump take care of pumping out the bilge (good test for the bilge pump - I replaced mine after last year's test)
3) Leave the drain valve open and blow air into the intake line using the dinghy pump. Keep pumping until no more water comes out. (This is important, to ensure no water is left!)
4) Empty the two water tanks and add plumbing anti freeze. Pump this through every faucet until a dark pink colour is seen on each of hot and cold settings, not forgetting the stern shower. Only need as much antifreeze as necessary to accomplish this from each of the two tanks.
This method keeps the antifreeze out of the HWT. As you have experienced, getting it back out of that tank is almost impossible.
In the spring, keep this plumbing set up until all tanks and lines are thoroughly flushed with clean water and there is no pink and no foaming. Only then reconnect the HWT and run the hot tap until all air is out and you get a normal flow of clean water.
Tony,
After reading your winter prep routine, I am so glad I live in beautiful San Diego and all I have to do during the winter months is put on a sweat shirt and go sailing.
Ralph
Ciao Bella
Fred, do you also have a Red Dot heater on your boat that is on the starboard Side under the dinette? If so, that is also connected in series with the hot water tank coolant heating line under the drawers in the sink cabinet on the starboard side of your boat. I believe this was installed by the dealer on my boat and they did poor job of the installation. The hose clamps they installed on the cut in line were so loose I had a steady coolant drip every time the engine was running. This resulted in coolant appearing in th area you describe. Hopefully this might also be your problem.
Jack
So we are up at the boat this weekend and I had the water pressure off, and dried the bildge, and no water dripped. Turned the pressure on overnight, so the kids could wash their hands after going to the head, and part way through the night the water pressure pump came on and would not go off. And yes the lea was back!
So the leak was in the pressurized side of the fresh water system
This morning I took out the galley cabinet doors and drawers, and opened up the area around the hot water tank. All connections were dry, BUT the base of the hot water tank was wet. So I guess I'm looking at a new hot water tank. The admiral and crew decided that we really didn't need hot water, but what a nice convince it is, so for now I need to get it out. Then we'll see if and how long it'll take to get a replacement and put it in.
So far I've closed the water loop by connecting the cold water supply line to the hot line. So I should be able to get the water flowing again. But I'm trying to figure it how to disconnect the heating line from the engine! At the tank they (Catalina) did not leave enough play room to move the tank about, and I can't get to it from under the sink. It looks like I need to cut it and have coolant run about! I could disconnect it at the engine and loop it together for now (I guess I might be replacing the hoses as well then), and then have only the coolant in the hose run into to bildges. Does anyone know if I cut it by the engine how much will flow out there?
Fred,
Engine Overheating 101 - How to Burp Your Engine (Reply #6) http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4518.msg26462.html#msg26462
If you do this, you'll significantly reduce the amount AF that leaks out, although gravity will be you enemy. Get a couple of plugs ready, or a connector, and be quick. Kinda like doing the paddlewheel knot meter! :D There will be AF in the heater, too.
In the meantime, I'd use a SunShower. Those things are great and we have used them successfully at anchor when we haven't run our engine.
You're not alone: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=143479
Well it took some time, but I finally got the tank out. Diconnecting the freshwater hoses and closing the loop there was easy, but the hose length on the coolant hoses was rediculiously tight, so I had to cut them. I first undid the hoses up at the engine, one at a time. I had plenty of paper towel available but it still wasn't quite enough. I temporarily used Seran Wrap and electrical tape to close off the ends. Once I had four open ends (two on the engine and the two hose ends) , I drain enough coolant out of one of the coolant hoses so that I could cut about 10" of it off. I cut a bit off of the other end that I had removed from the engine (it had gotten a bit chewed up), and used this as a U-shaped connector to close off the two engine ends. From Stu's above references, I'm guessing I need to do this "burping" thing.
I next cut the hoses down at the tank end. There was now way to undo the clamps. Catalina must have connected the hoses first to the tank, and then fed them through the galley wall and down and to the engine. I can't see how else they got the hoses on! The cut in the hoses did provide a tempory spray of coolant, which I most ungracefully redirected to the bilge.
Now, getting the tank out was still not easy. I'm guessing Catalina did not install them via the starboard settee, like we need to take it out from. It took some struggling to move the tank out, rotate it to starboard, and inch up the hull until the aft outboard corner cleared the settee storage opening. A bit of the fibreglas was chipped in the process, but that was better than driving it through the hull, which it felt like I was doing! The marina is closed now, so I'll find out tomorrow how soon a new tank can be acquired. For now the water loop is closed, water pressurized, and so far I see no leaking. :D
I've left the coolant hoses in place for now, since I'll now be replacing them as well.
Well now that I've got everything closed in, for now, its time to hit the showers and get cleaned up.
Good work, Fred. Regarding hose connections on the heaters: on our Mark I the heater is under the galley sink. There are two different connection options for the Seaward heaters, front or back. Ours is on the back, which makes it the starboard side, rather than where the door is on the port side facing the nav station, which is easier to get to. Either our PO or the installer installed a short length of hose to the heater BEFORE they put it in, which made getting the connections from the engine to the heater MUCH MUCH easier. There are simple "butt connectors" on the hoses. http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3769.msg22547.html#msg22547
If it is your hot water heater leaking water your pump would be cycling on and off as pressure drops. Leave the pump on and go to bed. If it wakes you up you have a water leak in the fresh water system. If it is coming from under the HW tank it is the tank or its connections.
If the system holds pressure you have a coolant problem somewhere. Just a way to learn more about your boat.
Sorry about that. Responded to the end of the first page and did not see that you had the issue located. :sleepy:
I was interested to come across this discussion as I have had a similar problem. I am in my second season with the boat, a '97 MarkII, and this spring discovered water leaking into the aft bilge compartment from the plywood base under the galley sink cabinet when the system was pressurized, right at the forward corner over the bilge. I assumed there was a leak in the various hoses/connections under the sink, but could not find anything. Finally asked the yard to take a look at it, and they claim to have found a small leak in the hot water heater. So they disconnected the cold water intake and hot water intake and joined them together in a loop so there is no water going into the hot water tank. I am still testing and am not entirely convinced that is the leak (or the only leak), but we shall see. We may or may not replace the water heater this year.
Meanwhile, here is my newbie question, this being by my first hot water heater. Is there any problem leaving the coolant hoses as they are (trying to heat a tank with no water in it, a tank that will likely never be used again). Or do we have to doing something further at this point?
Before giving up on the water heater check the pressure relief valve and the drain valve. I think more likely to be bad than the tank.
Jim
Fresh : To answer your question --
It's OK to run the engine coolant thru the "coolant coils" inside the hot water heater even if there is no fresh water inside the heater.
Fred:
If you need a new hot water tank you may want to call Seward. They supply the tanks and are
probably less $$ than your marina will charge. Just a thought.
Larry
Thanks Guys,
I did check the pressure relief valve, as I did with all the other connections before removing the tank. They were all dry, but the water was around the base of the tank. Thanks for the suggestoin Fuzzy, but I already got the tank via our marina. Unfortunately our marina did not get the hose nor did they have the fittings that I needed (I was looking for 5/8" barbed brass connectors, including two elbows), so while I thought I was going to install last week, I'll hopefully do it this weekend. At least we got a nice sail out to the islands in.
I've changed my mind about replacing the hoses for now (partly because of lack of supply) but also because I believe on the MKII it looks like its a lot longer length I'll need and it doesn't look as easy as it was for Stu (in the description of his article). I'm opting to just added the bits that I cut off and then possibly do the switch-a-roo in the fall or spring.
Here are a few pics of what things look like now:
The above pic is of the coolant loop being close at the engine end. I just cut the one hose and looped if back to where I took the other off from. The pic below is of the end where it goes from under the sink and behind the drawers through the "wall" under the seat to the tank. There was no way to unscrew the connection straps at this end. All i could do was cut the ends off. As you can see the access through the floor/bottom is quite tight to pull the hose through (and the marina only had a thicker walled hose as a replacement and only 8' of it).
And finally this is the empty space where the tank once was... and hopefully will be again after this coming weekend. You can see the cold water supply connected to the hot water supply hose, closing the fresh water loop. Good news is that all last weekend the bildges were dry, so the tank really was the culprit.
I may have to do some cutting at that dividing "wall" to get the tank in. The tank fits in way too tight. I may have to cut off one of the connecting flanges at the base of it to be able to rotate it in. I'll let you know.
Frederick,
Now that the tank is out and you have clear access to the dividing wall, you can get a dremel and cut a nice square access hole, instead of having those two small holes. This way you can have an easy way to get at and see the hose connections on the water tank by having better access under the galley sink.
Yes, I was thinking of enlargening the opening, but was uncertain as to how extreme to go. I guess the "wall" is to help keep stuff that falls from the back of the drawers from jamming up against the tank, getting hot and becoming a fire hazard (if it can get that hot, I don't know). Also it is a surprisingly 3/4" thick, for something that is not structural.
I also want to install a 90 degree elbow at the back to make the turn easier, and future disconnects easier as well, but am having a not so easy time finding the exact hardware. Assuming that I need something metal (brass) I looked online for barbed elbows (for 5/8" I.D. hose), with no luck. The below is the closest that I came up with. A bulky composite one that I had to make up with two barb to pipe connectors and a pipe elbows, and a possibly to small (short barb length) Pex connector (used for Pex systems).
I figured I needed metal for the "hot" coolant in the loop, but not sure if anything (like the little Pex connector) would be OK.