Hi All,
I received my new rigid boom vang from Garhauer last week and have read many posts on installation....... being they don't come with any directions. I do know how to mount the vang (as low on the mast as possible) and to collapse the vang, hold it to the boom and allow for additional downward travel to tighten the leach.
I still need a couple of hardware items and would like suggestions on where to get them. I saw the picture of Stu's setup with the vang through long bail ,the 3rd from aft end of the boom. Where can I get a longer bail? and how long should it be?
I also need to add a triple deck organizer being I only have a double on both port and starboard. Catalina Direct? Catalina? or other? Last year I put all new ball bearing sheaves in the doubles I have and would like to buy the triple frame and one additional sheave, so if anyone knows where that might be possible that would be great.
Lastly I will be routing the vang line to a swivel Jam cleat with deck mount (25-31)through a new multiple fairlead attached to the underside of the traveler. Those will come from Garhauer.
I am open to suggestions and or comments if I am missing something.
thanks
Steve
Steve
I had similar questions and found that by calling Garhauer (ask for Quido) they told me exactly what I needed to do for the installation. Like you, I had a double organizer, I bought the triple organizer from Garhauer with the ball bearing sheaves. Sold the Double organizer on Ebay. Give them a call, they are most helpful and have more experience with this installation than anyone on this forum!
Steve, Garhauer's the place to go. Before you sell your old organizer, you may want to simply consider stacking one new two hole on the existing other -- never know when you'll want to run another line back, like a cunningham if you don't have one yet. They only make a few sized bails in the proper width for our sized booms, so measure your existing ones and get the appropriate larger one. WM or any good chandlery will have them. The WM catalog has the measurements (2008 catalog, page 1238). The swivel cam cleat is a good idea and we use that kind, too - ours is like the Harken model 240, page 1224. It is very helpful to have the swivel when you grab the vang line, 'cuz when you're vanging you're usually sailing hard on the wind and every available access angle helps! (Goin' downwind it doesn't matter...)
Thanks guys,
I will give Quido a call tomorrow. I also like those swiveling cam cleats. I put 2 of them on the aft cabin top to control the new traveler I installed last year. Stew, If I install the new triple deck organizers and keep the doubles, can I stack a double on top of a triple later if I run additional lines aft?
Steve
Yes, the Garhauer bolt holes all line up, since the holes are through the sheave centers. The only issue may be tapping the plate below the raised section supporting the organizers if you haven't used all the holes yet, if you only had twos. Yes, we have twos over threes. It could also be that our "good old boats" all came with threes on both sides for starters anyway.
Steve,
I replaced my double organizer with a triple last weekend. I had to drill and tap 3 new holes to center the organizer on the mounting pad. The original double will fit on a new triple. In my case I stacked the double organizers on the port side.
Kyle Ewing
Donnybrook #1010
Kyle,
Now you got me thinking...... maybe I will just buy one new triple and stack the double on the other side, I did just put new ball bearing sheaves in them last year.
I don't understand why you had to drill and tap all new holes for the the triple??? If the doubles will stack on the new triples the 2 holes should have lined up.
Steve
I talked to Quido and he is wondering why I need a longer bail for the forward main sheet boom bail. He even suggested the vang may be to long. Does anyone know the pin to pin or should I say the bolt to bolt measurement with the Garhauer RV 20 -1SL vang? Both a full open and a full closed measurement would help me determine if I have the right vang. Maybe Garhauer can give me those measurements. When I ordered the vang I did tell them I had an 1989 standard rig, wing keel with a keel stepped mast. I would also like to know if anyone has a measurement of the distance from the back of the mast to the vang attachment point on the boom.
Thanks in advance for your help
Steve
Some pictures in this thread that may be of help.
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4992.0.html (Stu's photos)
If you can't find a longer bail, is it possible to do away with the forward block on the boom and run the sheet directly from the lower fiddle block at the traveller to the turning block at the mast base?
Looking in the Garhauer catalog they have 5.5"x3" boom bails.
Thanks Ken. Those are the pictures of Stu's setup that I was referring to. It looks to me like the bail is at least 8 inches long. The one picture that best shows the long bail also shows the middle main sheet bail which I assume is standard and it's 4 inches long. The way the vang is positioned through the long bail tells me a 5.5 wouldn't' be long enough. The only 8 plus inch long one I can find is 5 3/4 wide.
From what I have read on this board many 34's have been upgraded with the Garhauer rigid vang. I can't be the only one that has had this issue. That's assuming they sent me the right vang. I can't seem to find any other pictures showing the vang attachment to the boom.
Anyone have any ideas? or pictures of the vang / boom attachment?
Steve
Quote from: Ken Juul on June 24, 2009, 09:58:42 AM
If you can't find a longer bail, is it possible to do away with the forward block on the boom and run the sheet directly from the lower fiddle block at the traveller to the turning block at the mast base?
Ken, thanks for finding those photos. I went back and looked at my picture and the two things I can think of regarding this suggestion are: 1) could interfere with the dorades (close, but maybe) and 2) would interfere with the saloon hatch, but we never leave that open when sailing or even motoring unless it's really hot or dead calm, but the ferry and tugboat wakes are not worth getting inside our boat. I recall Ron Hill suggesting either that or something like that to reduce friction on the mainsheet some time ago. I did a search for mainsheet/Ron Hill but since he references all his writeups in Mainsheet in so many of his posts, it's nine pages and hard to find anything there without more patience than I have right now. Steve, you could try that route.
Steve, why not call Garhauer and ask Bill or Guido if they have longer bails or can make 'em for you? My PO had all work done by someone else, so i don't know where that one came from, but it must exist somewhere.
Steve,
The holes on the double line up with the triple but on my boat (#1010) the triple organizer would have hung over the base half and inch to an inch and would have created a foot scrape hazard.
I still would have had to drill and tap the third hole so it was just as easy to drill the other two.
Kyle
Kyle, that's very interesting. It sounds like when they originally installed the organizers the # of holes depended on whether the owner had ordered a two or three hole unit, and they tapped the holes based on that. I would have thought that they'd tap all the holes for a three banger and then use only two for the shorter one, 'cuz the base is big enough for the three-fer.
Steve : I wrote up a Ridged Boom Vang installation in the Mainsheet Tech notes (with a picture).
I used the bails that came with the boat. My boat has boom 4 bails, 3 for the mainsheet blocks and one forward for a soft vang toward the mast. It is depicted on page 4.1.7 of your owners manual !!
My rigid boom vang attaches as low as possible (just above an in-mast small bail) on the mast and about half way between the booms' "vang bail and the most forward mainsheet bail".
I also mentioned in that article that the mainsheet line needed to be rerouted from the last boom block (skipping the block below the goose neck) directly to the block at the base of the mast, then on to the turning block.
It's amazing the information that's written up in those old tech notes -- too bad they aren't in WiKi so someone looks at them!!!!
Quote from: Ron Hill on June 24, 2009, 05:49:05 PM
It's amazing the information that's written up in those old tech notes -- too bad they aren't in WiKi so someone looks at them!!!!
Ron, you can lead a horse to water...
The Tech Notes Online (TNOs) are available to C34IA members.
For the past few years I have been promising that the Tech Notes from 2003 to the present would be uploaded to the TNOs. Our goal was to improve the old b&w PDF files with full color photos and the
original text that may have been edited for space by
Mainsheet magazine as finally published.
We want to continue to share the largest amount of information for our C34 owners as we possibly can provide. All in one place, no separate email Lists!
Because of my skiing accident, and my feeble attempts at learning html language and the rest, I have been remiss in fulfilling that promise.
I am pleased to report that our new Commodore Bob Kuba has agreed to perform the services necessary to translate and upload all of that information. This means that we will soon be seeing those TNOs included on the website for C34IA members to access.
OK, OK, the ball's still in my court to get that information from my computer to Bob's, but I'm workin' on it. I promise... :D :D
Thanks again for your patience.
And, Ron, even when it's there, from where we're sitting, we can only take pride in the fact that we've made it happen, and that it's available. It makes no sense to b*tch about who reads it or not... You done good! -- For goodness sake, you wrote most of it! :shock: :thumb:
The wiki is in need of an article on the rigid vang. Please take some pictures and document your installation. Be happy to help you get it into the wiki format.
Ken,
I will take pictures once I get everything I need to mount it.
Ron,
My boom is just as you describe yours. It has 4 bails, 3 for the mainsheet and one where the soft vang was . The mainsheet ran to block attached to an eye strap just under the front of the boom and then to a block at the base of the mast. I have removed that block (the one under the front edge of the boom) and ran the mainsheet from the front main sheet bail to the starboard aft mast pin, through deck organizer through the fairlead under the traveler then to the miserable jam cleat by the winch.
You said your rigid vang is attached between the vang bail and the forward mainsheet bail. The vang they sent me when fully compressed intersects the boom aft of the forward mainsheet bail. The picture of Stu's setup shows his boom passing through the froward boom bail.
That is why I was asking for measurements and what others have done. I know from reading here that many folks have upgraded to the Garhauer rigid vang. Either the bails on your boom are in a different location than on my boom or your vang is a shorter than the one they sent me or your boom set further off the deck than mine.
I talked to Guido and he says they can make me a longer bail ($$$) or possibly the vang I got is to long.
I am going to go the the boat today and measure it from bolt to bolt and then call them back.
It really shouldn't be this difficult.
Steve
"It really shouldn't be this difficult."
Yeah, that's what I said about trigonometry, too. :D :D :D
Our vang was ON the boat when we purchased her in 1998, so I can't help with the install. Captain Al (Watson) put one on his - a present for winning the 2000 Nationals, and many others have, too.
But no one seemed to be taking notes and most all "complained" about the lack of instructions from Garhauer, as I recall.
This may be an opportunity to make notes, take pictures, write them down, and send 'em to Bill and Guido for them to make instruction manuals for future skippers' use. Heck, maybe they'll give ya some goodies, like new jib fairlead blocks... :shock:
Instructions for Wiki:
"Attach vang to mast as low as possible. Pull 4th bail off boom and throw it overboard. Pull the string and contract vang to minimum length. Have somebody hold the boom up a little bit below the point at which it would hang with the halyard up and the topping lift released. Attach the vang to boom at the point where it touches. Use the middle screws only at first. Give it dock trials with the main up. If you like it, put in the other 4 screws. If not move foreward or aft one set of screw holes."
It's not a hard job and there is no trig involved. That's my recollection and I did it based on Ron's detailed instructions. Refer to those if the above doesn't do it for you...
Steve,
Your instructions are clear and simple....... but they don't work for me. The boom attachment on the vang Garhauer sent me intersects the boom about 6 inches aft of the forward mainsheet boom bail.
I called Garhauer and they gave me the pin to pin measurement of the vang both open and closed. 66 open and 58 closed. 8 inches of travel. I checked mine and it is 65 open and 57 closed.
The way I see it there are 3 possibilities. 1) you have a shorter vang. 2) your forward mainsheet bail is further aft. 3) your boom is higher.
This vang will not mount between the 3 and 4 boom bail.
Steve, take a look at Stu's rigid vang picture in this post and you will see what I am talking about. If you get a chance would you get 3 measurements; your vang length, distance from mast to forward mainsheet boom bail and distance from bottom of boom to the deck. Something has to be different.
Steve
Ah but Steve, if you had followed my instructions, the 4th bail would be on the bottom of Lake Oahe and there would be no position between the two bails :D I'll be at the boat today pulling the old main and loosening up bolts in prep to drop my rudder, so I'll try and remember to take a photo and some measurements. I actually left the old fourth bail on my boat and only pulled it off recently. I think the vang tucked right underneath it.
I realized there is something missing from the abbreviated instructions above and bears repeating anytime anybody attaches stainless hardware to their mast: dip your fasteners in Lanacote (or Tefgel or whatever the modern high tech goo is called) and make sure to put a barrier between the hardware and the mast/boom: rubber, the paint on vinyl goo, cut up milk jugs etc...
Stu's photo shows a set up quite different than mine. His 4th bail is an integral part of his main sheet arrangement. Mine isn't.
OK. Here's a good reason not to trust memory. The vang tucks neatly under the third bail. And it is long at 57" pin to pin. Hope the pictures help. You don't need to swap the vang or buy different bails - just reroute your mainsheet and feel comfortable knowing it has been done before and it works....
Steve,
Thanks for the pics and the measurement. Was your "57" measurement with the vang completely collapsed? From the position of your boom in the 3rd picture that is my assumption.
My vang fully closed to 57 intersects the boom about 6 inches aft of yours. I will either need a shorter vang or a longer bail.
Thanks again
Steve
Quote from: steve stoneback on June 26, 2009, 11:44:20 AM
My vang fully closed to 57 intersects the boom about 6 inches aft of yours. I will either need a shorter vang or a longer bail.
Steve, there's another solution: Remove the interfering bail and move it AFT as far as it needs to go. To maintain the integrity of the boom, you can then do what I did and make compression bushings to put on the bolts for these now pretty close together holes in the boom. In fact, I recommend that everyone do this for their boom bails. I learned from Jon Arck's misadventures a few years ago when his boom collapsed. This is what it looks like, and repeats some of my pictures on page 1 of that topic that Ken linked on page one of this thread:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3339.15.html
Also read Ron's reply #19 on this topic - he noted that my vang is further aft on the boom which appears to have necessitated the long bail. He's right, but I wasn't there when it was installed and I couldn't tell you what happened. Based on Steve D's pictures, maybe mine's on wrong, but it's been working for all the time we've had the boat. Maybe if you just scrunch your new vang some more it'll go in under your bail? I don't think what you're seeing is any reason to believe you have the wrong vang, nor reason to return it.
Steve - 57" was completely collapsed. If yours falls aft:
1) you have your vang mounted higher than mine on the mast
2) your boom is mounted lower than mine, or
3) your bail is farther forward than mine.
Those are the only options I can think of based on the dimensions that are present in the universe we are occupying. Note there are only 3 bails on my boom. You can probably see where the hole was for the foreward most bail. So I am way far aft of the original soft vang bail (the one you should throw overboard).
But I don't think you are misunderstanding anything. You are dealing with a different animal. We've just confirmed that it is not the vang that is different.
Two additional measurements are going to be helpful for you here before you start creating metal filings. One is the measurement from the mast to bail 3. The other is boom height. I might be able to get these when I'm back at the boat tomorrow. But it's haul out and drop the rudder day so no promises.
Steve,
Thanks again. Yes, we have confirmed we have the same vang, both 57 collapsed. I too will measure the bolt location for the forward mainsheet bail and the distance from deck to underside of boom.
I mounted the mast plate right up against the eye strap at the very base of the mast where the old soft vang was connected. That strap is riveted on and one rivet is visible and the other is behind the mast boot. If I were to remove it (the eye strap) I could get the vang mount about 1/2 inch lower but that won't change the boom location near enough.
I will just have to find or make a longer boom bail..... or do what Stu suggested, move the forward boom bail aft.
Steve