i am in the initial phases of planning the rigging for a symmetrical spinnaker (note that i'm already rigged for and use an asymmetrical spinnaker (a.k.a. gennaker.)
i'd appreciate input that anyone has on what they feel is an optimum setup for catalina 34. specifically, i'd appreciate input on areas such as:
1) length of pole and composition material
2) preferred jibing method (i assume "end-for-end"?),
3) type of mast fitting utilized,
4) pole end fittings (type and composition material )
5) pole storage method (on deck, on stanchions, on mast, other)
6) did you install additional winches from standard Catalna configuration
also, please let me know if there are additional considerations i should be thinking of. thanks so much for your help, i appreciate your input very much.
tom madden
Hi Tom,
Converting the boat to fly a symmetrical spinnaker is a big job. I rerigged my boat so I could participate in races at my club in the spinnaker class (the only other option was to race in jib and main). If you don't plan to race your boat, I don't think it would be worth your time and effort. Here's a list of changes and adaptations I made:
1. you need a midship cleat or inverted u-bolt and both side to attach a afterguy block (the afterguy block attaches to spinnaker clew at the leading edge of the chute with the spinnaker pole).
2. you also need a foreguy block (used to pull down the spinnaker pole). Its location depends on whether you elect to do an end-for-end gybe or a dip-pole gybe. I do end-for-end and placed the block just in front of the forward hatch. I run this line forward to the bow and then back to the cockpit with little blocks attached to the stanchions on the port side and then into the cockpit through a cam cleat. To maximum length of spinnaker pole is the J length (13 feet)
3. you also need to install a poll lift line entering the leading edge of the mast about two thirds of the way up the mast.
4. due to the fact I would be racing, I found it important to get most of the control lines (for the outhaul, cunningham, boom vang, pole lift) back to the cockpit. So, I modified my deck organizer from 2 blocks per organizer to 4 blocks per organizer.
5. I also found it much more efficient to run the main by hand (as opposed to tightening via the winch) and modified the system so I could get 24:1 purchase. I also doubled the purchase on the traveler so I could run this by hand.
6. The other major conversion is to add a system to tighten the backstay in order to bend the mast in heavy air. Bending the big stick is pretty tough unless you get proper settings on lower stays on both sides.
7. When stringing the mast for the pole lift, I found the internal halyard lines wrapped on themselves and hence it was really difficult to raise the main and genoa, so I restrung all halyards (an interesting task in itself)
Running a symmetrical spinnaker takes a 6 person crew (2 foredeck, 2 on grinders, pit man and the helm. No extra winches are neccesary; but, all four are used simulataneously when gybing the spinnaker.
Hope this gives you an idea what you would be getting into.
Regards, Miles H
Kumatage 1204
TOM,
YOU GOT LOTS OF GOOD INFO FROM MILES. I CAN ONLY COMMENT ON JUST A FEW POINTS.
1. IF YOU GO TO A DIP-POLE GJBE, YOU WILL NEED TO ADD A TRACK UP THE MAST WITH A GOOD HEAVY DUTY CONTROL CAR
2. I LIKE TO HAVE 8 FOR CREW, YOU MAY BE SHORT HANDED WITH ONLY 6
3. I LIKE YOUR 24/1 MAINSHEET CONTROL BY HAND. I HAVE BOTH HAND AND/OR WINCH OPTIONS.
I ADDED TWO MORE WINCHES FOR SPINNAKER SHEETS.
GOOD LUCK. DAVE
Dave,
Can I ask what size winches you added for the spinnaker sheets and if you are happy with them?
Thanks,
Rick
Rick, I will let you know the size of my spin sheet winchs after next Sun. I do however want to mention that the 10in winch handles slightly interfere with the life lines when cracking. You need to holds the lines away.
Dave
Rick, As for the size of the winches I installed for my spin sheets, I added #40. If I were to do it again, I would use #30, which is the same size as the cabin top.
Good luck, dave
Rick: I have Harken 40's - not self tailing - forces the crew to keep the sheet in their hands at all times. The winches are mount as far aft as possible - limit by an 8" handle clearing the lower life line. I would not use smaller winches.
Other suggestions - run all the lines aft, use a dip-pole jib with a track on the mast - keep the pole attached to the boat at all time, crew of at least 6 - 7 or 8 are better, attach the topping lift as high up the mast as possible, bring the topping life and fore guy back to the cockpit together so they can be operated by one person.
just my 2 cents,
Ray
Miles:
24-1 on the mainsheet? Do you have any photos of your setup?
I'm also in the process of setting up for symmetrical spinnaker but
hope to at least start off using only the four winches now on the boat.
With the winds in SF Bay it seems safer/sane to 'keep the pole connected
to the boat' and do a dip jib but I'm wondering...
- How you manage with out extra spinnaker winches? Do you
use the cabin top winches for the spinnaker sheets/guys? Any
tricks or special moves when you set or take down the kite?
--
Tom:
Many of us here in the winds of SF Bay use the Forespar FC-125
articulating mast car as fixed rings have been known to break.
If you're doing end for end jibes then fixed ring should be fine.
(if you can get the pole made on the ring that is...)
For my topping lift I mounted a block to a strap just below the steaming
light and ran the line down externally. Higher is better though.
I have a folding padeye on my foredeck and snap shackle on a
set of blocks for the foreguy which then runs aft through just a
couple fairleads. I don't keep it permanently attached. With
a 2-1 purchase & a 1-1 for the topping lift you should be able
to control them by hand and secure them with cam cleats
or rope clutches if you have any available.
One problem I hear and I guess is typical of many boats is when
the pole is all the way forward the guy pushes rather hard
against the lifeline and stanchions as well as it's hard to control.
A reaching strut seems to be one option... perhaps twingers
that mount on the inside of the lifeline is another. I don't know.
Any solutions out there?
I may eventually mount some pad-eyes for the sheets blocks
but plan to start with dyneema straps (available at REI or any
climbing store) to mount the sheet blocks to the stern cleats.
We stow the pole on the mast but try to keep it on deck when
we are racing. We have aluminum pole with composite ends
because it's a lot cheaper than the alternatives.
It seems to me that there is a big difference between rigging
for racing and rigging for cruising. If I was rigging for cruising and
only planned to fly the kite in moderate to light conditions and didn't
have to be concerned with sail set & take-down efficiencies I would
do end for end jibes with one set of sheets and a basic setup.
Tie the sheet blocks to the stern cleats and get some twingers
for pulling the guys in... you can probably get away with strapping
them to the base of the stanchions as well. If you find you need
more you can always add it.
Which is why I'm hoping to pull this off with only four winches... if I
find myself in a lot of spinnaker races getting passed at key times
or getting tangled in too many lines crossing the cockpit that may change.
David,
I only use the winches already on the boat. I didn't want to punch more holes in the deck.
So, I run the afterguys through a block attached amid ship. I installed two inverted u-bolts at the widest part of the boat on the very outer edge of the rail (it was a little tricky getting both holes for the u-bolt drilled perfectly parallel to each other (used a drill bit jig used for drilling holes for dowels). You could also install two cleats (one on each side) amidship and then attaching the blocks with climbing straps. I would not recommend attaching the blocks to an exising stanchion because there is a HUGE amount of pressure placed upon this block when the spinacker pole is very far forward and you are in a heavy wind. The afterguy lines are run through these block and straight to the main winches.
Like you were thinking, I strap blocks onto the very aft cleats and run the spinacker sheets to them. Then I run the sheet forward from the aft blocks to another block that I attach the genoa sheet track and then to the smaller winches on top of the cabin.
I will try to get a picture of the 24:1 system I have for the main sheet and upload it to this site. No promises, I am not the most technologically savy sailor out there.
Regards, Miles Henderson
Kumatage, 1204
Quote from: Miles Henderson on May 21, 2009, 07:05:20 PMNo promises, I am not the most technologically savy sailor out there.
Miles,
here's how:
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3701.0.html
and
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4053.0.html
Here's a picture of the mainsheet system (I hope it comes through). The main block attached to the traveler is a triple block with becket and cam cleat from Garhauer. Another block is attached to the becket. The main block using the line coming out of the cam cleat has an 8:1 purchase (by my count). The fine tune has two triple blocks with the cam block also having a becket. What's the combined purchase with the fine tune (8x8)? Anyway, it gets the job done. The sails on the boat are North 3DLs, so in a 20 knot wind the sails can be made very flat.
A search for info on rigging for a symmetrical spinnaker, turned up this very helpful post. It appears that I'm a year behind Tom Madden. Like Tom, I am rigged for an asymmetrical spinnaker (sort of), and I'm re-rigging for a symmetrical spinnaker. I have few more questions and thoughts on which I'd appreciate the group's sage comments...
I plan to the use what is now the tack line for the A-sail (skipping the run from the foredeck stand-up block to the bow roller, of course) for the foreguy of the symmetrical spinnaker. This will follow the path implied in fig 4.1.10 of the manual to a cabin top cam cleat (and a cabin top winch, if necessary). This seems like the most efficient approach.
For the A-sail, I run the sheets to stand-up blocks at the aft-most position on the inside genoa track. Avalon Sunset doesn't have outside tracks on the toerail. This sheet set-up doesn't work well (as expected), but the A-sail is relatively small, so it isn't horrible. I need to get the sheet turning blocks farther aft for both the A-sail and the symmetrical. After some searching, it seems the options are: replacing the forward bolt in the stern cleats with an eye bolt to attach the blocks there; attaching the blocks to the cleats via dyneema climbing straps; or adding padeyes somewhere in the vicinity of the stern cleats for the turning blocks. The dyneema strap approach seems like a good initial step – any suggestions on the specific product or source? Perhaps the 12inch version of this: http://www.mountaingear.com/pages/product/product.asp/imanf/Mammut/idesc/8+mm+Dyneema+Sling/Store/MG/item/640031/N/0
Then I need to figure out whether there is significant value (for me) in rigging for lazy sheets and guys for the symmetrical spinnaker, and if so, how to accomplish that. Best I can tell from the manual, C34's with the spinnaker option weren't set up for both spinnaker guys and sheets. I plan to fly only in relatively light air until the crew gets a lot more experience, so I could put off installing guy attachment points, but I'm wondering whether I should rig it all now if doing so is inevitable. From the posts I've read, it seems it's not worth the hassle of adding an outside track, and that appropriately positioned u-bolts are the way to go. From the photo above, it looks like Miles Henderson has a u-bolt through the toerail pretty close to the waste cap. Am I interpreting the picture correctly? Any thoughts on diameter of the u-bolt stock or the length needed to reach through the rail? Does the u-bolt need to be angled inboard a bit to leave enough room below for backing plates and nuts?
Also, the manual specifies 70' of line for spinnaker sheets, which is about what I use for the asymmetric, but it seems pretty long for a symmetrical spinnaker. Any thoughts on sheet/guy length?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have!
Mert
Mert : I have a tack control line on my A-spinnaker. I made a 12" cable pennant that attaches to the one of the anchor pins on the built in bow roller (1986 thru 1988 models). On the pennant is a block for the control line 5/16" braid on braid. The line runs thru 2 blocks attached to the base of the (every other) stanchons and then to a small Lewmar #16 ST winch. It's a new style Lewmar that has a spring loaded self tailer.
The blocks for each sheet line are on large carbiner snaps that attach to the stern cleats.
I've never needed any blocks/guides for the lazy sheet line. The active sheet line has to go around the large #64 winches about 4 or 5 times as the line is is only 5/16". It seems to hold OK then with all of those turns.
70 ft for each sheet line is correct. Good Luck
Thanks, Ron. I appreciate your help. My tack line for the A-sail also runs through a block attached to the bow roller ('87), but without the pennant. Do you find the pennant helps? Rather than running the line back along the base of the stanchions, I ran it through a block attached to a folding pad eye on the foredeck (near the deadlight) and then through fairleads on the cabin top through a cam cleat near the starboard cabin top winch in case I need the winch. My mainsheet is on that winch as well, so another small winch like you have might be the way to go. Has anyone added purchase to the tack control line so there's no need to worry about a winch? When I rig for the S-spinnaker, I plan to use this A-spinnaker tack line as the foreguy, take it off the roller and run it up to the pole from the foredeck block.
The carabiners sound like an easy way to attach the turning blocks to the stern cleats. Thanks.
With my question about the u-bolts I meant to ask whether those in the fleet who regularly fly S-spinnakers see it necessary to rig for sheets run to the stern cleats and guys run to a midship point on both clews of the S-spinnaker or whether one can get away with one line on each clew?
Thanks again.
Mert : You may have done a disservice for future readers.
You have asked a question about an A-spinnaker at the end of a titled "symmetrical spinnaker" thread.
Those with an A-Spinnaker won't bother reading it and your post/comments/questions are important.
The simple way to get an answer to your new question is to just start a new thread.
I certainly apologize for any potential disservice. I actually thought it might help future readers if I raised my questions about rigging for symmetrical spinnakers on this thread, given the title and the helpful comments from last year. I guess my follow-up question on the tack pennant strayed a bit.
References to my current A-spinnaker rigging were only meant to describe how I hope to do double duty with my A-sail tack line as the S-spinnaker foreguy, and to see if there are strong preferences as to attachment points and methods for aft turning blocks for spin sheets.
I'm also interested in whether those who fly S-spinnakers find that they need (or prefer) both sheets and afterguys attached to each clew along with midship afterguy attachment points or whether a reasonable level of performance and control can be had with one line on each clew. I've sailed other boats with S-spinnakers rigged both ways, but I have limited experience with symmetrical spinnakers on a C34. I expect I'll wait to decide on midship afterguy attachment points until our crew gets more experience with the S-spinnaker.
Thanks for the help.
This is on my project list as well. I did not see a reference to the pole diameter in this thread. Would 2.5" be adequate or is 3" the preferred size? Also, I have the factory installed Genoa toe rail tracks. Are they strong enough to mount the guy blocks to at the forward end of the track? What type of spinnaker halyard block did you mount to the bail at the mast head? Do you launch the spinnaker from the forward hatch or a bag launch from the lee rail forward of the stays?
Good discussion so far on this topic.
Paul : I'm not in that business anymore, but I had a 2.5" pole for my 26' boat!
Don't think you should consider anything less than a 3" diameter pole for a C34. Tall rig you may want to think bigger! My thoughts
Ron: I found a 3.5" 15' pole on eBay and I will need to shorten it. Earlier in this post I say reference to the maximum length being equal to the J measurement which was stated at being 13'. Applying the age old wisdom of measure twice and cut once, I consulted the MK I manual on this site and found the J measurement to be 13.5' for both the standard and tall rigs (I have the tall). So which is it 13' or 13.5'?? Anyone out there have an "official" racing rule book for the C34 class to get an answer and how do I get a copy?
Also, I am still trying to determine if the factory installed toe rail jib track is sufficiently strong to use for the Guy blocks. Any wisdom would be greatly appreciated.
Paul : All of my data on the MKI and MKII for both the standard and tall rigs, show a J measurement as 13.5 ft.
I believe that the "Genoa rail" on the top of the gunwale/toerail is held on with screw - there is no backing plate. This should be sufficient to hold your guy blocks.
Maybe some of the racers like Dave Davis could confirm this? Hope this helps
Guy blocks should be placed at the widest part of the boat. The working guy is the line which goes through the block, then through the end of the pole and attaching to the leading clew of the spinnacker. The working guy carries a HUGE load under at 15 knots (you don't fly it at 20 knots as it is too easy to broche). The guy blocks are placed amid ship, because if they are placed too far aft, the working guy will bend the stanchions when the pole is forward.
I would urge any C34 owner interested in converting their rigging to accomodate a symmetrical spinnacker to first crew on a racing boat flying a symmetrical spinncker to see what your getting yourself into. It takes a six person crew to safely jibe the spinnacker while racing. :shock:
It's worth it! I converted my boat to fly a symmetrical spinnacker three years ago so I could participate in our local club's beer can races. It's a good time. Get out there and have fun!
Miles H
Kumatage #1204
Miles,
I noticed in your comments in the early part of this thread and in the lower center of your 24:1 mainsheet picture (another project added to my list) that you have u-bolts at the rail amidships for your afterguy. I like that approach, but after staring at the inside of the hull-deck joint, I'm not sure how to best fit backing plates, nuts, etc inside the hull. Did you have to angle the u-bolts inboard to provide clearance from the hull under the deck for backing plates? Also, any recommendations on the size/strength of the u-bolts? Any suggestions you have would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Mert
Hi Mert,
I have an extra U-bolt here at home. Not sure why I had an extra?? I pretty much took the approach that you can't be too big to carry the amount of pressure a spinnacker will put on the U-bolt when the pole is forward in decent wind (we're talking broach here). I got a U-bolt with bolts 2 inches apart on center. The diameter of each bolt is 1/2 inch (or a sixteenth less than that). The length of bolt has 3.5 inches of thread. I don't recall if I used all 3.5 inches or if I ended-up shortening each bolt by cutting it with a grinder.
The U-bolt came with a backing plate (it covers both bolts). Above the thread, each bolt has a small ring (about the size of a small washer) which was forged into the U-bolt which I used to backstop a washer on top of the rail.
I don't recall if I had to angle the drill hole in order to come out in the proper place below. I do remember that I used a drill bit guide (normally used for drilling dowel holes) and that I started with a large size bit. That was a mistake. The large bit cut into the fiberglass rail and started throwing chunks of figerglass here and there. I immediately stopped and started the hole with smaller bits and worked my way up to the 1/2 inch bit I ultimately needed. I do remember it was unnerving trying to get both drilled holes perfectly parallel even with the help of the drill bit guide.
I would start with a small, but long, bit and angle the drill bit as you deem appropriate and then see where it comes out on the inside. You will need a good rachet set with a long socket to fit around the bolt as you tighten the nut.
Good luck,
Miles H
Thanks, Miles. Starting with a small bit should give me a little room to align the hole to an appropriate position inside. I'll try a guide too. I'm hoping I can get a reasonable assessment of clearance by measuring off nearby stanchion bolts.
Thanks again,
Mert