Another practical question.
I know the math works and the specs from the manufacturers line up, but I want to know real world. The Honda 1000W unit with the 40A Xantrex charger.
Does it trip out with a deeply discharged bank when you start the generator and turn on the charger?
I know it works fine with the 20A charger and that I will never be able to heat my water. I am OK with all these things.
I just recovered from one case of generator disappointment and I don't want to have a relapse.
Thanks!
Steve : I can't answer you, but I'll bet that Xantrex can tell you if their 40A will draw more than 1000W. I believe that you are better off getting that answer from the "horses mouth" (manufacturer) rather than from the message board!!
A thought
I have the answer from the horse. I want to know if the horse is telling the truth :D
The only thing that will really make my confidence level high is an owner who says, "yep - got an EU1000 and TC40 and never had a problem." Then I know I'm good to go.
This will probably not really answer your question but I have the Honda 2000 ei and it runs my 40 amp charger and my Flagship 16000 btu AC while at anchor. In SW Florida that is a big plus. Terry
Steve : I'm not too sure which you don't have - the TC40 or the Honda 1000 ?
If the word from Xantrex isn't good enough here's what I'd recommend. With your "Missouri Attitude", I'd borrow the one you don't have and conduct your own test !!!
Steve, I have a TC40 and I think my marina manger has a EU1000. I'll check with him tomorrow and see if I can give it a test.
Cheers,
Rick
Rick : Just make sure that your batteries are discharged - so you have a valid test. A thought
Thanks guys. I have the TC40 and want to buy the Honda.
John Langford did the legwork with Xantrex. From his post:
"I posed this question to Xantrex Technical Support:
Can you please tell me the maximum input AC wattage that the Truecharge 20+ and 40+ battery chargers would require? I occasionally want to use a Honda 1000 watt AC generator to power the charger and want to be sure that it that the model I buy does not require more than the generator will deliver.
And I got this reply:
The specifications you asked for are as follows:
TC20+ 414W at 120V
TC40+ 765W at 120V
The total input power required will be higher if the input voltage is lower than 120VAC. Inversely, if the input voltage is higher than 120VAC, the total power required will be lower. The maximum power the charger will require is at 90VAC (the lowest voltage the charger will accept) and is as follows:
TC20+ 585W
TC40+ 1080W"
The Honda is spec'd for a rated output of 900W and a max output of 1000W @ 120V (8.3A). The TC40 should be drawing a max of 6.4A when it is at full output.
So if Honda meets their spec (no big voltage sag under load) and Xantrex does what they say, there won't be any issue. The only data point I have with generators is my green mistake, otherwise documented, that proved to me that generator manufacturers are liars. I strongly suspect that the Honda will do everything they say they can, but it would be great to know for sure!
Anybody ever measure output voltage on an EU1000 under heavy load?
Alternatively, is there any way to tip the EU2000 on its side for a moment and slide it into an upright position under the coaming on a MKI?
If you can get it all the way outboard there might be room in the cockpit locker under the port seat. I have never tried. My EU2000 usually has fuel in it, would not want any fumes that escape to vent to the bilge. Sailing it sits athwartship just forward of the pedestal. At the dock or at anchor it is moved out of the way to the cabin top or foredeck. With the Mk 1, I would think there is enough room in the lazarette for it to fit. But again you have the fume issue.
Steve : If you want to see if you and get the 2000 into the port side lazerette, here's an idea. Make yourself a cardboard box the same size of a Honda 2000 and try it. Then move that "box" around the boat an see what the other storage looks like.
BTW, You'll also burn more fuel and make more noise than with a 1000. Can your crew handle the heavier 2000 and get it started ?
A few thoughts
Good idea Ron. I built a "holding tank" out of one by twos for exactly the same purpose once.
I think my preference would be for a 1000, but Stu keeps tempting me with the hot showers. In any case, if I can't fit the cardboard box in under the coaming (and maybe I should load it with a bunch of bricks to see if it's manageable) I can't see tripping over the big unit for a year. I'll opt for cold showers.
My crew is proving competent. I once jokingly asked an 8 year old Foster to go and grab a 25 kg bag of mortar from the shed. I turned around and he was carrying it all the way across the back yard. He's ten now and would probably lift the EU2000 with one hand.
Had the chance to use a "loaner" Honda 2000, and then purchased the 1000. After a week of searching for the right place to store it when under sail, and then man-handling it into position, we chose the 1000...fits in a now vented locker, and easy to left out and start. Yes, we do not have warm showers, but summers in Florida are warm enough. Hope this is of help.
Why won't the 1000 heat water? Not enough amps? Will it even warm the water?
I shouldn't say that the 1000 won't heat water.
My recollection is that heating the water and running the charger is too much load for the gen and it kicks out. I don't recall what the load from the water heater is - you might be able to heat if you weren't charging - Ron or Stu can probably answer that...
The six gallon Seaward water heater has a 1,500 watt electric heater element. 1,500 watts >>> 1,000 watts from the EU1000, so......................? No conversions necessary, both are 120 volts. That's why it won't work.
The original question was the EU1000 with a Truecharge 40 amp charger. That 40 amps is on the DC side, so converting it to A.C. is like dividing it by 10 (120 volts, vs. 12 volts), or all of 4 amps.
The 1000 watts at 120 volts = 8.33 amps (watts = volts x amps; 1,000/120 = 8.33)
Should be just fine.
Should be fine...
There's some heat in the process so flat out at 120V it actually draws up to 6.4A per Xantrex above. If the Honda doesn't hold its voltage on a load then Xantrex says max is 1080W before the charger kicks out from the voltage sag. That makes it a lot closer to marginal than we could imagine.
I have no doubt that 95% of the time I would have no issue. I'm wondering about the case on the margin when I most need the generator and I've done something stupid with the batteries, will it run?
Stu, do you know of a way to limit output on the charger (thereby reducing input) ala what you've done with your alternator?
Steve - My Xantrex XC-30 has a battery temp sensor. If the Truecharge has a similar option available, you should be able to do exactly the same as Stu did with the external regulator to limit the output and therefore the 120V draw.
Craig
Seems that if you can start your engine with your "reserve" bank, and with your alternator output wired directly to your house bank, the alternator should take the brunt of the first stage of charging, even with your "wimpy" original OEM internally regulated alternator. Charge with the engine for a bit, turn it off, then you can kick in the generator. Based on the acceptance of our two day on-the-hook experience, you should expect the charger to want to pump its 40 amps in the bulk phase with our 360 ah house bank (see the Alternator Heat thread again). The "need" that the house bank has, its acceptance, is the controlling factor, not only what the size of the charger may be. Even after one night on-the-hook, the starting current required from the charging system for a bank that is only down 20% (400 ah, down 80 ah from a night on the hook with the fridge running) is still a startup 50 A based on the battery's acceptance.
Craig's idea is a good one, check the charger's operation against what the manual (oh, no! read the manual?) says to see if it mimics the regulator operation by dropping back to 50% output on the charger.
Added later: I checked the TrueCharge 20/40 manual. The battery temperature sensor only modifies the output voltage based on temprature and does NOT cut back on the amperage.
While we're on cruising, have you seen this? http://www.baja-haha.com/Guide/index.html
www.Latitude30.com is a good source of information. You, of course, have to come through here (San Francisco) and we'd be pleased to show you around. Just what we need, yet another C34 floatin' around on our waters!
I confess. I went to another forum. I found an owner who had a TC20 and EU1000. Upgraded to a TC40 and then promptly found he had to upgrade to an EU2000. I need to find out exactly what happened. I will report.
Nothing wrong with being from Missouri. It may have saved me from a mistake.
I think I'm going to go exclusively with big and solar and forget the gas generator.
Stu, did you really call my alternator "wimpy"? I thought you were coming with me and I was going to drop you back home. Where is Jon anyway? He is supposed to come with us.
But it won't be just another C34 in the bay. She'll look much sleeker than the others. Remember she'll be loaded down with cruising crap and show 2" less freeboard.
The goal will be connect with Baja Haha in October. So we're doing our laundry and Sunday dinner at your place through the month of September.
No need to confess, been known to happen from time to time. You DO get hit with a wet noodle for not providing the danged LINK!
Sounds like the whole package is too close to call in spite of the engineering calculations. Solar: you will be soooooooo glad you did it that way, and saved the gas and 2 cycle oil for the dinghy. :D
I may have to come with you to show you how to get into San Francisco Bay. The Spanish missed it for many years.
A sleek C34 on the Bay is always welcomed. I have been known to look too "cruisy" to actually race our pleasure barge against real racers who sit miles above their waterlines - I can relate.
Should be fun doing laundry together in September, which is the nicest part of the year here.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on December 19, 2008, 04:56:19 PM
... and 2 cycle oil for the dinghy...
No way man. 4 stroke. Air cooled. Though I do have an old British Seagull with 10:1 mix. Last time I ran it there was flotilla with protest signs following the rainbow slick on the water and the cloud of blue in the air.
Ah shucks, they probably thought that was just your Cuban cigar.
If you had a eu1000 and it couldn't handle the initial load of the charger, couldn't you use the 12 volt output of the generator temporarly to get the batteries partially charged, then switch to the truecharge 20/40?
Steve : Only an imprudent person lets his batteries discharge more than necessary! I never let mine go below a usage of 75 amp hours. The less you let the batteries discharge before recharging, the more cycles you'll get out of them.
I may be stingy (called Capt AmpMister by my crew), but overnight I seldom go below 40 amp hours. That's with the fridge 24/7 and normal cabin/anchor lights with some TV. I do have a couple of solar panels that will kick in in the morning. I will crank up the Honda 1000 if we are going to stay in that anchorage for a second night.
Take care of your batteries and they will take care of you!! A thought
So do you only work your batteries between 80% and full charge, Ron? You have a ~ 400 Ah bank don't you?
I've always understood that imprudent was drawing below 50% charge and typical practical operating range for cruisers was 50% to 80% charge while bringing it up to full charge as often as practical. Most people end up trading off some battery life for an acceptable amount of time charging.
What is your charge acceptance rate on the last 20%? (How many Amps can you put back into your bank near the end?)
I know in this thread I've asked questions on the performance of the EU1000 at extremes of TC40 operating range. That's not because I anticipate using it that way often, but because I wanted to know if it could get me out of trouble if I had a problem.
I've pretty much decided not to bother with the Honda and go with a large solar array ~400 Watts. If I were just cruising around the PNW, I think I would skip the solar panels and go with the EU1000.