Replaced the Racor this weekend and noticed it was in real bad shape – surprised I was still able to get fuel through the thing. The engine is a 1999 and only has about 250 hrs on it. I'm guessing this filter has less than 50 hrs use – I've had the boat for only one season.
Not sure the previous owner was the most attentive to maintenance – like filling up the tank at the end of each season and using fuel additives. Based on the low usage I'm also assuming the same fuel stayed in the tank for a long time – plus it wasn't used for a while due to the PO's health problems.
So I am considering cleaning the tank (and removing screen a the same time)– read Ron's article on the subject as well as other useful info – one item I came across that looked interesting was installing an inspection port – a company called seabuilt.com makes them. Also found a radiator shop that will do a steam cleaning for about a $100.
Does anyone have any experience with installing inspection ports – if so where is the best place to install – does anyone know where the baffles in the tank are located? How difficult are the hoses to remove from the tank & fittings?
Oh yeah, poor planning on my part as I filled up the tank at the end of last season. I'd like to start with fresh diesel - anyone know the best way to get rid of the old fuel?
Thanks,
Bill
I replaced my fuel sender last week and had a decent view of one
end of the tank but looking into the send hole.
To my surprise the bottom was clean, there were some loose globs of
debris floating around but overall it wasn't bad. It's a 20 year old tank.
You might start by pulling out the sender as you can remount it
using the same gasket. It is a squeeze in the locker to be able
to look into the tank but doable for most.
If your tank isn't that bad you might try fuel polishing.
I agree with Dave - that was my first inclination and he beat me to the post! :D
An inspection port may also be considered counterproductive, since there are at least two or three sections baffled off, so you can only see into the one section where the port would be installed. Why not just use the one that's there already: the sender. Anyway, there's so little room above the tank to get your head into that once you open up the wall separating the aft cabin from the tank, you'll see.
You're right that you should remove the screen at the end of the pickup tube.
Look at it this way: what a good excuse to use your boat more often to motor around and get rid of the old fuel! :clap
Just keep changing your Primary filter, change the secondary on the engine as well, learn to bleed (see: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,2884.0.html) and re-plumb your fuel hose from the tank to the Racor and then to the fuel pump.
Bill,
If you do go the route of getting rid of your old fuel, a very easy way to do so is to give it away. A neighbor of mine heats his home with oil, and was extremely happy to receive 20 or so gallons of free diesel fuel. It is very close to #2 home heating oil, and you don't have to pay any outrageous "disposal" fees.
If you pump it out through your filter and save it in jerry cans you can just pour it back in. If it's gone through the filter it should be in good shape. I also think you should have no problem giving it away. When I did mine I didn't have The last five gallons I poured into the new tank. Bottom line is that you should not have to pay to dispose of it. :thumb:
Guys : If you use the new Starbrite Enzyme Fuel Tank Cleaner, it will save you the trouble of removing the tank. It will cost you a couple of Racor filters (depending how much crud is in your tank), but it does clean up the insides nicely. :wink:
Thanks for all the response – very helpful. Based on feedback I think I will hold off on pulling the tank and installing the inspection port- which means I can get in the water a week earlier – always a good thing.
I will remove the screen and try the starbrite enzyme fuel tank cleaner Ron mentioned – Ron has never steered me wrong before! I'll also stock up on those Racor filters.
Thanks again!!
Quote from: foursailing on April 23, 2008, 12:56:12 PM
I will remove the screen and try the starbrite enzyme fuel tank cleaner Ron mentioned – Ron has never steered me wrong before! I'll also stock up on those Racor filters.
Just be careful. If you do this treatment in a dramatic way, you will clog your Racor and the engine will stall, so you need to check the filter's condition very carefully before you leave the dock (if you keep your boat at a dock), and again before you return to the harbor or to any tough-to-navigate-by-sail area.
Probably the best way to do it with the Starbrite cleaner is to pump the fuel through the filter into a jerry can(s). Then pour it back into the tank. Jon is right you don't want to be motoring around while that stuff is in there clogging up your filter.
So let me get this right, throw in the Starbrite in, let it do the job of breaking what ever you have in the tank, then pump it out filter out what you can and then back into the tank instead of having the Racor filter it out on it's own?
I think they mean pump it out through the racor using the electric engine pump. You can see when the filter get fouled by the reduced volume flowing. It might help to raise the aft end of the tank an inch or so to get all the fuel forward where the pickup up is. Once the tank is empty, you will probably have to sop the last half gallon of fuel/water/crud with some rags, change the racor, refill the tank with the now clean fuel, bleed the system and you should be all set. Depending on how full you tank is it should only take 2-3 hours to pump and clean. There should be enough fuel cans around the marina that you can borrow for an afternoon rather than buying them.
That sounds like the right process, Ken, but I think we need Ron or someone else who has used this stuff to enlighten us one point: how fast does it work? Having read the product's MSD, it looks like it actually works somewhat opposite to what you're suggesting. If I've interpreted it correctly, it seems to disburse all of the crud in the tank, including the water which accumulates at the bottom, back into the fuel. It essentially kills the organic elements and, if you will, dirties all of the fuel (which would be a good thing for this purpose). The question is, how fast does this process happen, and does it need any "pot stirring" (e.g., taking the boat in rough water to shake things up a bit)? Might be worth a call to the manufacturer. My worry would be that if you do the pump out/filtering too quickly, the product won't have had a chance to perform its magic, but if you have to wait, you'll be motoring around with fuel that is getting more and more evenly dirty (versus having all the crud settled in one spot on the bottom of the tank now).
Jon - I spoke to the manufacturer - they were very helpful. I asked the exact same questions - the process works very quickly - I was told that I would just need to wait an hour or so before begining the pump out / filter process and no, mixing / aggitation is not needed (some type of reaction take place).
I will be filetering through my racor - I'm going to remove the hose to the raw water intake and route the fuel line to the ground and waiting containers. Just need to purchase some additional fuel line - (does anyone know the diameter by any chance - not close to my boat). I'm going to try the process this weekend and will report back.
Thanks!
Bill
The fuel supply line is 3/8 inch.
Raw water hose removal???
So my plan is to turn off fuel supply at the tank, connect the 3/8 hose (thanks!) to the Racor outlet, remove the raw water hose, open the raw water through hull, route the new (temporaty) fuel hose through the through hull and into the container which will be sitting on the ground.
Open the fuel supply and assume gravity will do the rest. Is my plan flawed?
Bill, that sounds somewhat unusual. Why not just connect the new long fuel hose to the outlet of the fuel pump (disconnect the fuel line TO the engine) and run the pump by turning the ignition switch ON? The fuel line from the tank should go to the Racor first and then the fuel pump. I still have NO idea what you mean about the raw water line. If you try to pump or siphon the fuel from the tank through the thru hull you'll most likely just get fuel all over your hull. If you try to siphon only, you'll need something to start the siphon. Sucking on the hose won't cut it with diesel fuel unless you have a LOT of garlic around, so use the pump. If not, the best way I've found to siphon is to use a small hand pump like on outboard motor fuel lines. See page 2, column 1 here: http://www.c34.org/fleet1/pdf/August07.pdf
Keep the extension hose to use for replacing the fuel hoses at a later date, or now when you're done if you haven't replaced the fuel hoses in a while.
Thanks Stu - So my thought was to run the extra fuel line from the Racor output (or better yet, fuel pump outlet), remove the water intake hose from the through hull fitting (obviously the boat is out of the water), creating a hole for me to pass the temporary fuel line through. I'll then have the fuel containers sitting on the ground, which I would think would be less messy then doing that on the deck or in the cabin.
Follow my (so called) logic?
Thanks,
Bill
That sounds like a great plan. Minimize the chances of a fuel spill in the cabin. My only concern might be the internal diameter of the thru hull, will the fuel hose fit through it? If not, a possible solution would be a section of copper tubing going through the thru hull with the fuel lines attached to both ends.
Thanks Ken - hopefully the fuel line will fit, but if not the copper tube sounds like a good option!
Just a thought - if you're only using the fuel hose for the pump out get the cheap stuff at an auto supply place. Or, if your fuel hose is old, then get good, marine rated fuel hose and when you're done use it to replace all the existing hose.
Bill : The easyest way that I've found to drain the tank and save the fuel is to put a length of 3/8" fuel hose on the outout of the electric fuel pump.
Then turn on the key switch and control the on/off of the pump with the battery selector switch. When you fill a 5 gal tank turn off the battery switch and put the fuel hose into an empty 5 gal container and start again. Inbetween you can sit on the head seat and monitor. A thought.
Ron - This was plan today - hooked 3/8 fuel line to the output of fuel pump then turned the ignition key to on position - but all's I got was a dribble (< a gallon an hour) and no noise was heard from the pump. When I turned off the battery off, still got the same dribble. I don't think the on position turns the fuel pump on for my M35 (?) and it was just gravity responsible for the flow ( routed lines down a through hull to the can on the ground - obviously I'm not in the water!)
When I got home I double checked the manual, it read "fuellift pump is energized by the key switch/preheat button". Since I didn't turn the key all the way to engage the preheat, I'm assuming I didn't energize the fuel pump ??? (don't think it would be a good idea to keep preheat for extended period.)
My next option is just to drain the tank by connecting fuel line that goes to INPUT of racor and just use gravity or find a fuel safe pump. I would then recycle the fuel through a 3 stage baja filter back into to the tank.
Poured the startron fuel cleaner in the other day -a little concerned about the filter clogging issue since it's pretty tricky getting out of the marina I'm at (narrow "creek" with 2 opening bridges before I get to the bay!).
Bill,
I believe you're right about the pump not working without the key on. I recall my old neighbor's MKII was the same way. I also remember it was possible to "jumper" it temporarily to make it work without the key on.
Bill, I wonder if your fuel pump is working. While I have an M25-XP, I do have a new (last year) Seaward engine panel, so yours should work the same way, and my fuel pump definitely turns on when the key is set to on; there's an audible clicking of the pump. My original (1990 vintage) panel worked the same way.
Re reply #21 above.
Please read this: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3347.45.html, especially reply #52 on page 4 - it's a VERY long thread. There's more later on that thread where I essentially "predicted" what you're discussing.
YOU have to KNOW how your engine is wired and how it works.
If you want the easy way out, just jumper around the fuel pump and get it to work with the ignition switch on, and NOT the glow plug position. See my "Unforeseen Circumstances" post on that thread.
Or "FIX" it back to the way the older boats were sired, simpler and more effective when bleeding and doing this kinda thing...
I personally think the "new improved" way is nuts. I also think the diode "solution" was wrong.
Bill, I'm not going to let this monkey on my back go: do you hear an audible clicking sound from the fuel pump when the glow plugs are engaged? I find it hard to believe that brand new Seaward panels are being modified by CY at the factory to move the fuel pump lead from the on switch to the glow position. It's actually logical, and something that I have considered doing, since we shouldn't need the fuel pump on all the time, but it makes no sense to me that CY is doing that. Wouldn't they just ask Seaward to reconfigure the boards? Mk II owners: is it true that your fuel pump only clicks in when you're heating the glow plugs?
Jon,
I have never heard the fuel pump click on my M-35 regardless of the position of the ignition switch. I think it only engages when the engine starts (would never hear it then).
The first time I chnaged the fuel filters I was at a loss as to how to bleed them. My C-30 had the M-25 and I, like you would just turn the ignition on to energize the pump. Not so on the M-35. I use the hand pump mechanism on the top of the Racor filter to bleed air to the injectors. Quite a PITA.
Steve
Jon - Unfortnately I was not able to try that (glow plugs engaged) since I was the only person at the boat (need a helper), but there was definetly no clicking from the pump when the switch was just on the on position - just the anoying alarm.
Also in the manual it indicates to bleed the system you should loosen nuts above injectors and "turn the engine"??
Any other suggestions to drain the tank? Checked on the baja filter and that filters down to 74 micron vs. 2 micron for the racor. Still worried about the filters clogging at the wrong time after the Startron tank cleaner treatment. My next thought is to drain the tank, put in fresh fuel (enough to safely get me past to the bay), then put the old stuff back in (filtered through the baja) once I'm safe at my mooring.
Stu - Thanks for the link to the thread - I'll have to read through that tonight. This is my second season with the boat and still have a lot of learning to do but with the help of the board I'm making progress.
Steve - looks like we posted at the same time, but that's consistent with what I've observed / read.
Thanks!
Jon, the newer boats fuel pump only runs when the glow plugs are energized OR the oil pressure is up (i.e., the engine is working). That was the whole point of my reference to the earlier thread. It's NOT Catalina doing anything to the panels, it is where the wires from the panel go TO, based on the wiring diagrams quoted in that thread.
Revised: Okay, I see the issue now; it's the ground wire from the glow plug solenoid to the fuel pump. Interesting. Wouldn't you think a ground wire would always be "on" (i.e., an active ground)? If that's the case, and the fuel pump hot lead is still wired to the non-glow-plug lead on the ignition switch (which is how it was on my recently purchased new panel), I don't see how that the different grounding makes a difference. Unless solenoids work by shutting down both the pos. and ground?
Bill : I apologize that I didn't see that you have an M35 engine. I gave the solution for an M25XP wired fuel pump. As Ted suggested use a jumper wire to get that lift pump going.
Bill,
As I see it you have two options to drain the tank:
"Hotwire" the fuel pump to get it running. All you have to do is hook up a 12 volt wire to the plus terminal on the pump and it'll pump fuel. If you wanted to you could permanently wire it with a switch to turn it on for bleeding or whatever.
Get another electric pump (drill pump or whatever) for just just pumping out the tank. But if you want to reuse the fuel you'll have to get a good filter for it too.
Thanks Ted - I was considering the "hotwire" option - looked pretty straight forward - assuming I would need a fuse in the line?
Just ordered a 3 stage baja filter - filters down to 74 micron - if I go the pump route I'll recycle throuhg that filter and hopefully it will catch a lot of the crud before it gets to the 2 micron racor.
If you want to permanently hotwire it then, yes, you need a fuse. But if it's just temporary to pump the fuel out this one time I think you can get by without the fuse because you'll be monitoring it the whole time. I don't think the Baja will be good enough at 74 microns. You want to run it through something as fine as your finest filter or you will be clogging that filter. If you're using the existing pump it should be pulling the fuel through the primary filter. (on my boat that was 2 microns)
Thanks Ted! - makes sense and will follow your advice. Curious to see what comes out of the tank with the startron treatment.