Has anyone found a way to minimize the smell from the holding tank vent that wafts downwind when the head is flushed? I've tried RV products, KO and the other products that Peggy Hall mentions, but nothing seems to work. I don't mind spending money on something that works, but so far the boat units I've spent trying are wasted.
Ken, the solution is found in Peggie's book: increase the size of the vent and get it off that silly stanchion. The routing of our holding tank vents is one of the worst. The kinks found in the factory installed hose are notorious. We've installed a 90 degree elbow above the nav station where the vent goes up to the stanchion, but that's not a good fix. The idea is to get as large a vent line to the tank to promote aerobic action in the tank which will itself make the smells go away. Peggie's discussion of heads and holding tanks was earlier posted on our FAQ section, but had to be removed when she published her book. I've emailed you the article.
Ken,
I've had very good results with a carbon filter in the vent line. There is no longer that god-awful odor when someone flushes the head. Actually, no odor at all. WM and others sell it for around $70. I've heard that you can achieve the same results with HD plumbing parts cobbled together for 1/3 the cost, but haven't done it myself. Hope this helps.
I tried the carbon filter a few years back and didn't have much luck with it. In addition, any water that trickles into the vent got trapped in the filter rather than flowing down the tube where it can be coaxed into the tank.
The concern I have with Peggy's solution is that the gas from anaerobic activity is there regardless of the vent size. It seems to me if you want the aerobic activity to dominate, a greater airflow in the holding tank must be achieved, and that's not going to happen passively thru the vent tube.
My theory is, the more you use the head, the better, as it introduces more oxygen to the tank, supporting aerobic growth. I think using the head only intermittenly, is the problem. Last season, as an experiment, I started pumping air into the tank via the waste pump outlet on the weekend, using the dingy footpump. It seemed to help going from weekend to weekend.
So I think the solution is to figure out a way to introduce air to the tank in a better manner than the footpump. Maybe an aquarium pump? then the amps issue....
Ed
Quote from: Ed Shankle on May 03, 2007, 08:57:11 AM
So I think the solution is to figure out a way to introduce air to the tank in a better manner than the footpump. Maybe an aquarium pump? then the amps issue....
Ed
Ed, I think you are right on with this. In fact West Marine has started selling something very similar to the aquarium pump, albeit obscenely priced!
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/70875/0/0/holding%20tank/All_2/mode+matchallpartial/0/0
I think there is a better way, by combining a cheap battery powered aquarium pump and a solar panel.
This is the pump I bought - http://www.petco.com/Shop/Product.aspx?R=7204&Nav=1&N=0&Ntt=battery+pump&sku=144100&familyID=7400&
I still need to get the solar power, hook the two together and run it for a good long wile as a test before I poke a hole in the tank and snake in that tube :shock:
I increased my vent size, per Peggie's suggestion and used KO and that helped. But I did get a foul odor on a port tack coming out of the stanchion vent (I kept that vent and added another one going forward and leading out above the sheer stripe below the port side v-berth port). It wasn't until I started using Odorloss that it completely stopped the odor. I know use Odorloss, which is also recommended by her if KO doesn't work.
For me it seems to help if I flush the tank with fresh water at a pump out station and then pump it out again. My macerator quit pumping last weekend so I will be using the pump out station anyway until I get around to fixing it. It makes noise like it's trying to pump bot I don't get the high pitched squeal that I normally get when it's empty. Could the macerator be clogged and is it fixable? Any ideas? I'm sure this could be a messy job.
Mike
Mike,
I have done a macerator repair...very easy and not too messy. The motor and pump seperate quite easily. The pump is actually a brass plate with two vertical prongs. I found an obstruction there, removed it and the macerator was fine.
MACERATOR MALFUNCTION
Mike
One simple trick for the macerator pump is to REVERSE the power wires and run the pump again. The wire switch makes the pump run backwards and may clear out your problem (or clear it IN! :D). Some folks use quick connects on their wiring to be able to do this more easily.
If it's the standard Jabsco, there is a hex key (or some type ) fitting at the end of the pump that allows you to manually rotate the pump - that will sometimes free it up.
Great ideas! Thanks guys, I will give them a try.
Mike
Mike,
I should add to my previous post about macerator pump repair. The obstruction was a paper towel...not very easily chewed up. It sure was nice to have the easy fix but a lesson about being careful about what goes into the head.
Be sure to let us know what method ends up working to solve you're problem. It is good to have feedback!
I like the bubbler idea better than drilling another hole in my hull for bigger vents. Power is a question through. The Tetra Whisper 100 (for 100 gallon fish tanks) draws 4.8 watts and costs about $30. Unfortunately it is set up for 120v, so a converter would be necessary. Smaller models might draw even less. That's .4 amps at 12 volts assuming an efficient conversion.
I did stumble across this solar unit, all pre-packaged for $50:
http://www.siliconsolar.com/Solar-Oxygenator-p-16155.html (http://www.siliconsolar.com/Solar-Oxygenator-p-16155.html)
I'm sure it is not as good as the 120v models, but it might be worth drilling a hole in the inspection port for the air line to test this out. If it doesn't work, the inspection port can be replaced or plugged fairly easily.
Quote from: reedbr on May 10, 2007, 07:05:53 AM
I did stumble across this solar unit, all pre-packaged for $50:
http://www.siliconsolar.com/Solar-Oxygenator-p-16155.html (http://www.siliconsolar.com/Solar-Oxygenator-p-16155.html)
Well, at $14 for the pump I posted, then the wiring, and having to buy a separate solar panel, then the setting everything up - I think this solution is better. As for it not being as good as the AC, well who knows how much air it takes? For $50 I think it a worthy experiment :thumb: In fact, I just ordered one.
Larry, please keep us posted on your installation efforts (pictures) and results. I know the results could take a little time but summer is upon us again, so things are getting "sweet" in the old tank again.
Quote from: Jim Price on May 10, 2007, 12:32:30 PM
Larry, please keep us posted on your installation efforts (pictures) and results. I know the results could take a little time but summer is upon us again, so things are getting "sweet" in the old tank again.
I'll take pictures along the way. Actually, I've also purchased a tank monitor with external foil sensors. I'll document that also.
I hear you on that "sweet" tank. On my C27 it got so bad that I changes out the toilet, and all of the hoses except the pump out (it's a tight fit in the V-Berth). Still graced me with the essence, so I went to Wally Mart and got some pool shock. The stuff was specifically for
vinyl pools. One tea spoon to season the... ah... soup, and my problem was solved.
Has anyone installed the 12 volt Power Bubbles in their holding tank? Looks like a good solution for about $35. Link is here:
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0013525013714a&type=product&cmCat=perf&rid=0180101070502&xpid=k1343&cm_ven=Performics&cm_cat=Affiliate%2Dclick&cm_pla=BizRate.com&cm_ite=DDI%20link
It was a cold and damp morning in New England, but I managed to get out and get something done on the boat today!
I've posted a few projects on my blog at http://robertie.com/blog/?cat=8 (http://robertie.com/blog/?cat=8). The inspection port looks good, shine a flashlight down and you can see forever (if... you care to :shock:). Unfortunately I did not measure the vent hose before building a filter, etc... but little harm done - it can wait for another day.
Thankfully, the tank on Ruach has never been used, what a relief!
I purchased the West Marine Sweet Water aerator 2 years ago. Save your money. It does not work. The theory made so much sense though. It was always on when at the dock, off when sailing. At the dock, there was always a hint of odor. You also had to learn to tune out the noise of the pump. I installed it under the sink in the head. I even tried the fresh water route. I have found the best fix is to use the head often, and pump-out frequently. (with a rinse a freshwater at pumpout)
I have recently started using a product called Odorlos available at WM and it is working great! I am using the pre-measured powder packets but is also available as a liquid. It is a nitrete based compound and has no odor of its own but since I have been using it I haven't had ANY odor from the holding tank.
If you are using a pump out station the best procedure is to pump out, re-fill the tank with fresh water, pump out again, add a few gallons of fresh water then add the chemical through the toilet.
If using the macerator at sea, pump out, add some water, either sea water through the toilet pump handle or fresh water from the sink hose (depends on how much you're trying to conserve fresh water and how soon you'll be back at the dock)and punp out again. Then add the chemical through the toilet, putting in a few more gallons of water.
Even after being away from the boat for two weeks their's NO odor when returning and expecting that nasty smell from the vent the first time you use the toilet.
I still need to look at my macerator next weekend to figure out why it's not working but from what I've been reading about it so far, I think its going to be a bad impeller.
Hope you all have a great Memorial Day,
Mike
Mike, goo input, thanks. For your macerator, if you haven't done it yet, try reversing the wires to get the pump to run backwards. That could clear it, or you could have an impeller issue. Good luck.
Guys: This worth repeating.
No toilet tissue in the holding tank!! Have it put in a zip lock bag and throw it out with the trash. Even the BEST marine grade tissue will tend to clog things up!!
A thought. :thumb:
I took my macerator apart last weekend to see what the problem was not being able to pump out. the impeller looked OK but when I compared it with the new one I bought, it was a Little more flimsy than the new one so I thought it would be worth replacing it.
I didn't see any obvious obstructions or blockage so I was hoping the impeller would fix it.
When I got everything back together, it seemed to be working OK on my first fresh water fill up and pump out, but the second time I tried it it was back to the same old trouble. The motor runs and the shaft is turning but nothing is pumping.
By the way, it was a messy job because even after flushing the tank out twice at the pump out station, when we disconnected the hose that connects the macerator to the bottom of the tank, there was still a lot of sediment and crud that came out of the tank. Also there some STUFF in there that was like gravel, possibly STUFF that had calcified over the years.
We were starting to take it appart again to see if we could find out was wrong when one of the hose clamp screws broke off from rust and the screw part was still clamping the hose so I'll have to go back next time with my dremmel tool to try to cut the stainless band.
Anyway, I noticed that I used to get water out of the stanchion vent when the tank was full but I did not this time, If the vent is plugged could this cause the problem I'm having and how hard is it to get access to the vent line at the stanchion?
If the deck pump out plate is open, would this cause a problem with the macerator pumping?
I'm pretty sure the vent is plugged because at one point we took the vent hose off at the tank elbow and watter gushed out of the tank that should have been going out the vent hose.
One other thought is could the pump have an air lock? I know it is supposed to be self priming but is it always?
I wish I was able to get the hoses off while I was there but I did not have all the tools I needed and I also ran out of time. Sure would be nice to live closer to the boat.
Any ideas will be appreciated.
Mike
Mike, If you have a clogged vent, I think that would prevent the macerator from working properly. The macerator would pump until it pulls a vacuum in the holding suffiicient to overcome the power of the pump. You really need to clear that vent. You may need to reroute it a bit to get rid of any low spots which act like a sink trap. On my 1992, the vent line connection to the stanchion is accesible throught the sliding door. above the nav table. There was a low spot at the elbow just below the vent , and another where the hose connects to the tank. If it ever overflows again, it will now self-drain. Next job is a tank level indicator - I'm sick of guessing. Good luck!
Bob's right about the location of the vent, since it goes right into the bottom of the stanchion. Many have reported that hoses get kinked at that location and in other places on the hose's run to the holding tank. We installed a 90 degree elbow just below the stanchion to get rid of that kink. Unfortunately, the vent hose is actually too small for the tank and putting a 90 degree elbow in it doesn't help the concept of the vent, which is to provide fresh air to the tank. Most production sailboats get this design concept and execution of it completely wrong.
The best source of finding about heads and how to avoid boat odors is Peggie Hall's great book, which can be found here: http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=400&sku=35630&cat=1304
Stu,
I think the only time that the vent is going to supply any measurable fresh air to the tank is when the tank is pumped out. Most of the time it acts as a release vent, to let air out of the tank as the tank is filled.
As mentioned previously, I believe the key is to use the head often and pump out often, to introduce oxygen. Otherwise, some kind of mechanical means of pumping air in is needed.
Ed
The discussion of the purpose(s) and use of the vent is at Reply #2 on this thread: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=1198.0
The vent, as you note, Ed, lets air out and in. It stops the holding tank from building up pressure. However, it SHOULD also do what is described in the reference, but mostly does NOT do so because of the way our boat, and unfortunately most others, were built and are still being built.
"As mentioned previously, I believe the key is to use the head often and pump out often, to introduce oxygen. Otherwise, some kind of mechanical means of pumping air in is needed."
I agree, however, the proper way to deal with it is not pumping air, but introducing a proper venting system.
If it turns out that my vent line is clogged, I think it may have been caused by me over filling the tank to flush it out and forcing anything floating on the top (those nasty paper products that Ron warned about) up through the vent and clogging it.Something to think about when flushing. When I pulled the vent line off the top of the tank and got the gusher out of the tank, I also got some bits and pieces of paper so that may be the problem.
I also wanted to try the procedure that Stu mentioned about reversing the DC wiring but when I went to find some quick connects to put on the macerator they were only available in packs of 25 at about $18 for each the male and female connectors so I thought I would try to find them somewhere else in a smaller quantity.
It will be interesting to see what becomes of this problem.
Mike
Mike
It may be easier to simply replace the five or six feet of vent tube hose.
For smaller packs of disconnects try a marine store, Ancor brand, they usually sell them in packs of three or five - Ace Hardware sells the mega packs only, I've found. They're more expensive. Another way to do it is to simply cut the wiring a foot off the pump, strip the wires, do the test and then use butt connectors to splice. It should only need to be a one time check and good for a long time that could easily be done again in the future.
Mike,
Go to a real hardware store, not the Depot, and you should be able to buy connectors one at a time. They have them in the many drawers that have misc parts. Around here Hillman supplies most of this kind of stuff.
Guys : Reversing the wires on the masserator pump to clear a blockage has been written up in the old Mainsheet tech notes!!
Good stuff in the tech note CD or on line!!! Read them and DESCOVER information! :thumb:
From the Nov. 1998 Tech Notes (http://www.c34.org/mainsheet/pdf/1998_no4.pdf)
I picked this up easily from the Knowledgebase (http://c34.org/bbs/index.php?topic=3362.0) by a Ctrl-F search on macerator in the Excel spreadsheet.
Stuck Macerator: Before tearing everything apart and cleaning/replacing the "impeller," try reversing the wires. With the through hull closed, reverse the
wires and make the pump run backwards. Then open the through hull for a
short period. This may clear the stoppage. Don't let the motor run backward
too long with the through hull open or you soon overflow the holding tank.
Then try some holding tank additive, maybe add a little more water, wait for
the residue to soften up, and try it again (wired back properly).
Guess I've been lucky so far. I've used nothing but the OdorLos granular product for 2+ seasons and have not encountered the "vile stench" issue. All I do is add a packet after each pumpout, a bit of fresh water to wash it down the line and even the admiral is happy. :thumb:
I don't pump sea water into the tank either. Too many mysterious compounds (organic and otherwise) to intermingle with the contents, ferment and... :cry4`
We don't have a problem with odors out of holding tank since we learned to manage it the first year. We use fresh water to flush when only the two of us on on beard. This is accomplished by a connection to the head sink waste line. We just run some fresh water into the sink and flush with the water you are washing your hands with. If we have guests aboard I switch over to salt water flush so as not to confuse them and also to save water. We always pump out at the end of the trip and then I run some freshwater through the lines and toilet into the holding tank. Result no odor!
Jack
Hi Jack,
I'd like to know more about how you plumb the boat to use sink water while still maintaining your salt water intake option. At first glance, if you T into both the sink drain and the head salt water intake line, it would seem that you would lose your prime when trying to pump salt water into the head.
As long as the T is below the waterline should be no problem. :thumb:
John, the "T" comes right off the bottom of the drain just before the thru hull and there is no problem loosing prime. You can hear the water gurgling in the sink, but it flushes well. I have the thru hull for the original head intake complete disconnected and closed off.
To flush with fresh water I just close the sink drain thru hull and fill the sink with fresh water. With just the two of us aboard I leave the sink thru hull closed all the time and drain all fresh water thru the head.
Jack
John,
I plumbed my head intake this way too, off a "T" in the sink drain. To flush with salt water, put the strainer in the sink drain, as a stopper (like if you wanted to fill the sink with water and not letting it go down the drain). That cuts off that hole, and the water will come from the open seacock. For a fresh water flush, close the seacock, fill the sink with some fresh water, then pump the head.
Jack, if you were able to completely disconnect and close off your head intake, where do you plumb your shower sump pump?
Bill, on my Mark ll The shower sump goes to a pump located under the galley sink and shares the same pump as the refer drain by simply turning a Y valve. It came from Catalina that way. We seldom ever use the refer drain as we generally don't put ice in there, only run the refer, so I keep it open for a drain from the shower. There is also a separate thru hull under the galley sink next to the sink thru hull for this pump.
Jack
I know this is an old post but I just wanted to let everyone know the fnal resolution of my problem.
In the procces of reversing the wiring on the macerator to make it run backwards as Stu and Ron suggested, I also found a loose connection at the crimp connction right at the maceraror. After re-wiring with quick connects and running the pump backwards for a minute, everything is working great again. So, it was either the loose wire or the clog being cleared by the reversing or a combination of the two.
Another problem solved!
Thanks for everyone's input on this, especially Ron and Stu. As usual, you were right on.
I purchased the expensive filter from West Marine 2 years ago, only use fresh water in the head, pump lots of air into it and have had no odor in 2 years.