Well we took possession of the new boat on Thursday. We owned it for oh about 45 minutes before we went sailing. As far as the sailing goes, how long does it take before you lose the stupid grin? My wife has one too. So do the boys. Our dog Scupper? Well he always has a stupid grin anyway.
Learned a few lessons. The boat had pink stuff coming out of the water tanks. Thought I would drain them and flush them. Lesson one. Don't leave the sink running in the head unattended. Well, and if you do, remember to open the seacock for the drain. What kind of antifreeze do people put in water tanks? I always drained mine on my last boat.
Lesson two. The oil dipstick really needs to be firmly seated back in its tube. My pristine engine compartment got covered with oil. I thought it was something disastrous, but it turned out to just be messy.
Lesson three. It's really really easy to spend a thousand dollars at West Marine. New fenders, new cabin lights, new VHF, etc...
Now the question. I just picked up a Webasto AT3500 forced air diesel heater kit today. Has anyone installed one themselves on a C34? I'm interested in helpful hints on running the ducting, plumbing the fuel hookup, locating the furnace and exhaust, etc.
Also interested in anyone who has a Webasto 3500 installed as to the heat distribution throughout the boat. I'm thinking one 60mm drop in the aft cabin, 90mm in main salon, and 90mm forward in the V-Berth with no drop in the head. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone feels they have living spaces either too hot or too cold and if they had it do over again would they put in larger or smaller drops in particular areas.
Hi, Steve, and CONGRATULATIONS and welcome to the fun of owning a C34.
Re your request on diesel heaters: a search on "Webasto" indicates only a few threads on that unit. Another search on "diesel heaters" would most likely turn up some more. It seems that the owners are in the Pacific Northwest. If you do the search on "Webasto," you should be able to ascertain the members and then contact those respondents by personal message or email and perhaps begin a dialog with them, unless they read your post on the Message Board. One lives in Sidney on The Island.
The oil dipstick has a rubber flange on it. Push it all the way in. Plus, when you check the oil each and every time before you start your engine, make sure to take the dipstick out first (not necessarily completely - I just pull it enough out to clear the seal, then let it rest on the edge of the seal on the dipstick tube while I do some other things, then go back and check), reinsert it, and then check the level. The gasket creates a seal (as you now know) so unless you take it out first, you won't get a good reading on the oil level.
The grin? It NEVER goes away!
Steve, I installed a Webasto unit in our 1989 boat two years ago. The unit is tucked away in the port cockpit locker just above the fuel tank, so it is a short run for the diesel line. The exhaust goes straight back to the stern, and I put the air intake in the head. We have two hot air outlets, one at the bottom of the locker just aft of the nav. station, and the second below the drawers in the V-berth compartment. We sleep aft, and with the door open get enough heat that I don't feel the need for an outlet there. It is a great unit, and works very well. I had no special problems with the installation, but please feel free to email me directly if there are questions/problems. Our boat is in Anacortes (Cap Sante), and the heater is great on those (rare!) rainy days.
Hank Busey (hwbusey@montana.com) Bitterroot #958
Steve, I've just bought a '97 from Vancouver Island. It has an Espar diesel forced air heater (predecessor to the Airtronic, I think) located in the same place as Hank's Webasto (that is, in the port cockpit locker just above the fuel tank). It has an exhaust run to the port quarter just forward of the transom, with the main heating duct running along the port side, with 3" feeder ducts to the aft cabin, head, salon (just forward of the nav station just above the cabin sole), and forward cabin. The unit works well, very quiet - like a jet taking off a long way away - but doesn't pump out quite enough heat for this neck of the woods. If you have long arms, you can just reach to hook up the duct to the aft cabin through the head waste bin hole and the opening under the sink...did it just yesterday when replacing the plastic register. There have been two problems with this arrangement. First, it seems that various buckets and other plastic objects have come in contact with the heater unit in the port cockpit locker and have come away melted for their temerity. Second, you have to remember to tie up nose to the wind at a dock on a cold night so that the diesel fumes don't blow back through the companionway hatch. I could probably take some photographs of the ductwork if that would be of any help to you. Regards. Michael MacLeod #1352
Thanks for the feedback guys. I will attempt the installation tomorrow. A pickup tube to the diesel tank, exhaust to stern, wiring to the panel, ducts throughout the boat - shouldn't take much more than an hour...
So I dug into the installation this weekend and it went pretty smooth taking about an hour as I predicted. :liar
Got the fuel pickup in, wiring, exhaust, controller, air intakes, with ducts into the the aft cabin and the main salon. Everything works. I just have one more duct to run from the wet locker aft of the nav station forward to the v-berth. The question is how to run the duct forward. For those with large ducts (3")for either a/c or heat how are they routed past the nav station into the settee forward? Under the floor (looks like there's space but are there any structural members)?? In the space under the electrical panel? (I don't like to mix heat and electrical components). Suggestions would be appreciated if anybody recalls which way their ducts go.
Thanks,
Steve
I'd love to hear about how ductwork has been run in our boats... and about any espar or webasto (or their competition) installs in the last decade!
I installed a heater(espar) 3 yrs ago. I did the same thing that Hank did on his boat. The change I made was that I build a shelf behind the port locker(facing the stern) and ran my heat duct above the fuel tank. Installed the duct work and came out in the head with a 2" and in the main cabin under the wet locker with a 3" opening. Air intake is locked in the aft cabin. Also fastened the duct work to the underside of the port locker. There is about 6" of space below the port locker floor and the top of the fuel tank. I put installation on all the duct work to minimize heat loss.
The only thing that I would change is the location of the thermostat. I placed it in the head, would place it in the aft cabin next time??
Paul
Enjoy the comfort.
What model did you choose?
What's your opinion of the noise? Both the pump and the fan/exhaust?
The noise level is minimal. We never run it when we are sleeping. We use it on cold morning and evenings. Last summer due to the 2wks of rain we ran it to take the dampness out of the boat as these heaters are like your furance heaters. My manual is on the boat and sure of the model #.
PS: It took a lot longer for me than 1hr.
Paul
You don't run while you sleep? Is that due to manufacturer's recommendation or lack of need? I'm looking for central heat for me weekend "cabin" in winter. If I can't sleep, then I probably won't spend the money!
Here in Michigan it is the lack of need. Usually only need it in early June to take the chill out of the boat in the morning. We have never needed it for night time. There is no reason you could not run it during the night.
Paul
Ah... Different use case altogether. In June, I dream of AC! What I'm looking for is shirt sleeved weather inside on New Year's Eve. :)
Waterdog,
A little side note. When you check the engine oil and it reads low DO NOT ADD oil until you put the dipstick back in and check it a second time. Mine always reads low and even the surveyor noted that there was no oil on the dipstick. I've read somewhere on here of other people having the same issue and maybe someone will chime in on it. I believe that because of the seal on the dipstick oil isn't able to travel up the tube and register on the dipstick. At first I thought the engine was using oil but after pulling the dipstick out and then checking it again the oil level shows full and it hasn't used a drop of oil. You don't want to find yourself at anchor draining oil from the engine because you added oil when it is in fact full....of course I have no personal knowledge of that :shock:
Just pulled this from the Eberspacher/Espar D2/D4/D5 Airtronic installation guide... Not quite sure how to take it, but sounds to me like it isn't intended to be used in a boat while the crew sleeps?
Purpose of the heater
(using the vehicle heat exchanger)
• Pre-heating, de-misting windows
• Heating and keeping the following warm:
– Driver and working cabs, Ship's cabins
– Freight compartments
– Passenger and crew compartments
– Vehicle engines and units
– Camper vans
On account of its functional purpose, the heater is not permitted for the following applications:
• Long-term continuous operation, e.g. for preheating and heating of:
– Residential rooms
– Garages
– Work huts, weekend homes and hunting huts
– Houseboats, etc.
If my memory serves me correctly, there is a guide for marine use on both Espar and Webasto. Both are used in the trucking industry but for marine use a different guide is used, mostly dealing with the fuel lines, duct work and exhaust pipe.
Next time I go up to the boat I will get my installation manual.
Paul
PS: I bought my Espar from the dealer in Detroit but dealt with the Webasto dealer on the west coast for all other parts and technical advice. They were more cooperative and knowledgeable about the marine environment. I think it was Sure Marine Service in Seattle??
The difference with Espar between a marine kit and truck kit are more than just a manual..
Here's some of the differences..
*Marine installations should use different fuel line, not plastic. The plastic fuel lines in a truck kit do not meet ABYC, USCG or minimum standards your insurance company will want to see. This copper is metric and hard to find in the US.
*Marine kit has marine specific software to minimize lock outs. On trucks they know where the fuel tanks are in comparison to the fuel metering pump. Not so on boats so the software is different.
*The truck kit comes with very little duct hose & supply/return outlets/inlets and is a different diameter than the marine kits due to run lengths.
*The truck kit does not come with exhaust blanket/exhaust lagging
*The truck kit does not come with a muffler
*The truck kit does not come with double walled marine SS exhaust hose. The truck kit exhaust hose is single wall and NOT SAFE for marine use.
*The truck kit does not come with the exhaust fitting for the transom
*The truck kit does not come with a marine mounting bracket, they usually mount them on a floor.
*On some models the marine kits use a larger duct hose diameters and heater outlets/end cones to make up for the longer runs we have on boats.
*Truck kits don't come with exhaust condensate drains (some marine kits don't either)
In short I have installed a number of Espar's for folks trying to save money by purchasing a truck kit. In every single case it cost more than just buying the marine kit to start with. For example the truck dealers don't stock lenghts of more than 6' in ducting. The minute you order "marine ducting", from the marine dealer for a truck kit, and you did not buy the heater from them, the price seems to magically go up.
I would strongly urge anyone considering a Webasto or Espar to buy a marine heater from whomever will stand behind it and service it locally. I would also not install an Espar without the digital thermostat. These stats allow you to re-set codes & over-ride metering pump lock outs as well as trouble shoot the codes. The Espar service tool for this cost over $1000.00 and the Digi-Max D-1000 stat costs under $100.00. If you buy a truck kit, and use it on a boat, you will eventually lock the unit up and without the Digi-Max you have no way to clear the code and re-boot it..
I would strongly urge not to tee into an existing fuel line. The fuel "metering" pumps need the small diameter pick up the Espar ships with or they can lock out and cause nuisance issues. Tee in only as a last resort.
I did not mean to imply that it was just a manual, only that there is a separate manual for marine application. As i said in my post that the duct, fuel and exhaust are very different.
For those installing a heater. Mainsail as pointed out in detail the difference in the marine environment. The marine manuals for these heaters also go into these details.
Fuel line has to be copper and I had to order it out of England through eBay as they would sell it in meters. (Originally I used rubber fuel line but after much discussion on this site, I found the metric copper)
Paul
Just to make things a little more confusing... the words I copied way above, that were confusing as to when the heater could be used, *were* from the marine installation manual, but still made it look like it could be used on a boat but only when the occupants were awake.
I'm looking for something that I can safely use and sleep. The webasto has no such warning but I suspect that has more to do with the paranoia of their attorneys than their design.
https://esparparts.com/techsupport/pdfs/Marine%20installations/Airtronic%20marine_installation_manual.pdf (https://esparparts.com/techsupport/pdfs/Marine%20installations/Airtronic%20marine_installation_manual.pdf)
Mike, just an addition to Mainsail's comments, be sure that the exhaust pipe will not allow water to flow to the heater if a wave hits the transom of the boat. Pipe should have a rise in it before it exits the transom.
Also the the digital thermostat is a must as it will tell you if there is something not working(need the codes). My unit also came with a plug so that you can hook it up to a computer if you have the software. Easier and cheaper to take the heating unit to a dealer than a service call.(If not been there yet)
I also put in an opening port(7X14") in the aft cabin(rear wall) so that I can check the heating unit.
Paul
Mike, might check this out to confuse you a little more. Have a great Holiday.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f115/espar-vs-webasto-heaters-114683.html
I'm just about sold on the Wallas 30GB, but it's a little bigger... about 18 x 11 x 6 inches... so I was hoping someone had some insight as to whether that would fit back behind the bulkhead at the foot of the aft berth, over the fuel tank and under the propane locker.
Also, as far as ducting, my understanding is that the intake draws heat to it, so I'm thinking of one duct to bulkhead that I'd have to remove to get to the mounting location, one in the foot area of the chart table, and a third in the forward cabin underneath the drawers, with the intake in the head.
Thoughts?