I have a simple two battery set up. last time I replaced the batteries I put in one cranking and one deep cycle. It seems after I did that I saw where it was recommended to simply use two deep cycles as you are not doing serious cranking to start the 25 hs. diesel. Batteries are three years old. Cranking battery is dead and deep cycle is weak. Suggestions?
Mark,
I have the two battery setup and just replaced with 2 dual purpose 27s to give me a few more amps. I Plan on putting in a separate cranking battery in the future. In the mean time I carry a jump start battery pack as insurance in case we forget to move the switch from all to 1 or 2 when anchored or sailing for extended period of time.
I had that decision to make about a year ago and I elected to go to 6 volt "golf cart" batteries (4) if for no other reason that I can lift them out myself if need be. I looked into a starting battery circuit and instead went to Costco and for $55 bought a battery, inverter, compressor pack that recharges from AC or a cigarette lighter socket.
I keep this pack in the boat when cruising and at home for inflating tires when needed. I doesn't weight that much and has enough stored power to start my M35 engine at least 4 times. Works well for me.
I have just upgraded to a three battery system. I am using two sealed group 27 deep cycles linked as one for my house, and a group 27 granking battery for my engine. I will probably add a diode so I do not have to switch back and fourth to charge the two systems.
Jerry
One of the first thing I did when I got ELIOSSO was to upgrade the batteries. I opted for golf cart batteries. Purchased 4 TROJAN T105 that fit nicely into the battery locker under the settee. I also have a starting battery behind the engine. I also upgraded the alternator to 100 with external regulator as per Jim Moe's recommendation. At the dock, an TRUECHARGE 40 keep the batteries well charged. The system has worked well for more than a year and I don,t have a fit when I see a light on.
Paul
Mark : Do as Paul suggested and go for the 4 golf cart 6V batteries. After you get those in then you can look into a 12 V starting battery installation.
That 6V installation is in the Mainsheet tech notes and Projects list. :wink:
Mark
Re: Serious Cranking - you're right, turning over one of our engines isn't a big deal. There's no reason not to be able to use a deep cycle battery for the intermittent and short duration start needs. While we on Aquavite have a large house bank and a separate start battery, I often use the house bank to start, because the start battery is essentially there for when we're out on the hook for an extended period and have depleted the house bank, and so the start bank is there for a "ready reserve" which was its intended purpose to begin with.
If you look back at the electrical and battery discussions on this message board, you'll note that Dave Davis once asked about his (4) 6V golf cart battery setup, and whether having 2 house banks of deep cycles was OK for "switching" house loads daily and for starting. The answer is that a starting (technology) battery isn't used at all if you have a double house bank setup. In fact, this is exactly how Catalina is still making C34 electrical systems, with the two 8D batteries. Many new owners simply tie those two together for a larger house bank, and then add a new start battery, or they keep them that way and switch off daily. Start battery technology IS used when you have a larger house bank and a separate starting bank, where the start battery is used JUST for that purpose, as noted above. So, the choice still is: 1) "split" banks, either used for house and start; or 2) dedicated house bank and separate start bank.
Of course, this choice also depends on your energy budget, and how you use your boat. If a single battery suffices for your estimated "away from re-charging source," then you're fine. I still believe that a single battery, even an 8D, is really pushing it for even a daily sail if you have and use refrigeration, based on a simple energy budget: you end up drawing down the battery excessively, when having a larger house bank will reduce the draw-down and extend the life of the batteries. All this has been previously discussed here on this board.
I also discourage using the ALL position to start the engine, since either bank should be capable of doing so. If it is NOT, you need to consider why not and find out how to fix it.
I believe that there is adequate information not only on "electrical" and "batteries" here on the MB, and the recently posted electrical systems information in the main website "Projects" section, for all of us to be able to understand and design their own systems, always remembering that there is no ONE way to do it "right," because it all depends on how you use, or intend to, use your boat.
Interesting discussion!
I just threw out a 1995 SAIL magazine article that did a test on 4 large batteries. At first they were all (4) tied electrically together (the ALL position) and then they were tied into 2 separate banks (bank 1 and bank 2) and used separately by bank.
The conclusion was that all tied together was better and increased battery (cycle) life.
If you switch the battery selector switch while the alternator is putting out more than 20amps, you will arc across the switch and dirty up the contacts - making for poor switch contact in the future.
I leave my selector switch in the ALL position and still use the starting battery (which can be separated/isolated). :wink:
Ron's right, any larger bank of batteries will last longer, given the same daily (cycle) use. Period.
If you do a search on this board for Calder, you'll find a longer explanation of that at:
http://www.c34.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=973&highlight=calder
Better yet, buy the book and read the whole thing.
Also, remember that how your particular boat is wired and set up is very important to know and understand. For instance, Ron mentions using his switch in the ALL position. He does that to combine his two house banks together, because, as he says, he has a separate starting battery, that doesn't go through his 1-2-B switch.
His wring is very different than mine. I have a 1-2-B switch, but #1 is the start bank and #2 is the house bank. It would make no sense for me to use ALL ever, since I want to use either #1 or #2, but NOT both. I also have a combiner between my banks, NO DIODES, for charging by my inverter/charger (one output) and my alternator (also ONE output). The charger goes to the PDP of my house bank, the alternator output goes to the #2 at the back of my 1-2-B switch (which is essentially the same position, electrically speaking, as the PDP).
So, PLEASE be careful when describing operations and asking and answering questions, especially about electrical systems. My feeling is that detailed electrical questions about how to operate specific boats can't ever be done without a wiring diagram. Other than that, as you've seen, we all will be glad to share our electrical experience and ideas. Don't forget to check "Projects" out for more great electrical information.
When I bought my boat in 2002, it had one old 4D battery and one newer group 27. Both were shot, so in 2003 I did a lot of research here on golf cart batteries, a third starting battery, charger, alternator and wiring upgrades, etc. I finally just bought two standard 4D wet cell lead acid batteries from Batteries Plus for $110 each. My theory was to see how it goes, and upgrade if I run into problems. So far I'm into my third season with no problems. I even still have the original Flyback 20-3 charger. I would recommend starting with the stock 4D or golf cart batteries (a simple change) before doing any major upgrades. I'm a KISS person. Some additional notes on my usage and environment:
(1) I do stay out on the hook overnight and sometimes most of the following day. No problems starting after using lights, refrigeration and cabin fans all night/day. I've got three kids too, so that's drinks, lights, fans and water pressure for five of us. I do not have an inverter nor a microwave.
(2) I do go cruising for a week each summer, out on the hook every night, no problems so far.
(3) I do not leave my boat plugged in while I am gone. I don't like 110 AC running through my boat while I'm not there, so the batteries don't charge in my absence either. I would like to get a solar panel but haven't so far.
(4) If I don't run my engine much in a weekend, I'll plug the boat into shore power for a few hours before I leave to make sure I leave the batteries pretty well charged.
(5) With light winds on the Chesapeake, usually I get an hour of engine running (i.e. alternator running) per day.
(6) I have been alternating between batteries 1 and 2. That is, I'll run all night on #1, charge it the next day with engine time and switch to #2 for the next night. This always gives me a backup starting battery, but I've never needed it. I've always been able to start with the battery I used all night. However, I think for this year's cruise I'm going to run with the switch on "both" and carry a portable jump-start unit as has been suggested by others.
(7) Those 4D's are heavy. I'm relatively young but I still strained to move those units aboard and in position. They have never moved since I put them there though. Each winter I make sure they are charged and then I completely disconnect them (bilge pump, common ground, everything is disconnected). Sometime mid-winter I'll stop by, check on the boat and charge the batteries with a car charger for a few hours, but other than that they sit on the cold boat all winter.
When I started this experiment, I estimated battery life at 4 years. I figured if my poor usage practices shortened my battery life by a year (down to 3 years) I could live with that. It would still be cheaper than the upgrades. Like I said though, this is season three and so far so good.
By the way, the only reason I didn't go with the golf cart batteries was price. I just couldn't beat $110 for a 4D.
Good luck with whatever you choose, but I do recommend getting rid of a group 27 "starting" battery as your second battery.
Mark:
Like, Brian, I like the KISS method. I put 4 Trojan 105's on position 1 and a Size 27 on position 2. If I am heading out for a week, I start her on position 2 and then switch to "both" while I am motoring (be sure your 1-2-B switch is a "make before break", almost all are.) When anchored, I put her on position 1. I was just on the hook for 4 straight days and while I did a share fare of motoring up rivers, esp. the Chester, I had the refer on the whole time and no problems, (and I have the stock alt!), the 105's are great. For day sails and weekends, I just leave it on "both" and forget it.
While the 105's are a little more ($70-90 each x 4) they are a good value. What's a couple or 3 hundred for peace of mind?
My 27's died on me...after much research, I chose to go with 4 Trojan 105s (6 volt golf cart batteries...2 each wired in a series). I also replaced the stock battery charger (which cooked the batteries to start with) with a TrueCharge 20. To install the Trojans, I had to expand the stock battery boxes by about 1" each...just cut them in half and fiberglassed in a spacer. So far so good.
We just finished our 6th summer on Voyager. Have a seperate starting battery for back up, which I replaced this year. It was almost 6 years old.
Have two 4Ds which are now 3 years old and did fine all summer. Put about 99 hours on the motor for a full 2 months out, so that averages about 1.5 hours per day. A marina once or twice a week and have a true charge 40. Used the link 20 to monitor daily and keep a running log of condition 8 am and pm. Used the inverter alot the first have of the summer so that my son could play video games. (yeah, after 16 years of cruising, he's rather be watching TV- and he ended up going home to Grandma for the last month.) Am thinking more about the golf cart battery idea because when you do have to replace them, those 4D's are heavy!)
Battery/DC electric rules of thumb:
1. One large bank is better than separate smaller banks. As with any engineering project, simple is always better than complex!
2. A separate starting battery is a good idea. There are many different ways to accomplish this, but the best is dedicated "maintenance free" (e.g., AGM) battery located near the engine. Check the project page for ideas.
3. All wiring should be properly fused and switched (including the "main" distribution wires). ABYC guidelines are a good start. If you're not familiar with electrical wiring or maintenance, it's not rocket science! A good book on the subject is worth the money and will save you headache--even if you hire the job out, you'll have a better idea of what's going on with your boat.
4. Wiring should be properly sized IAW with a wiring size chart for either a 3 or 10% current drop. Shorter runs are better than longer runs. Wiring charts are available on line or in most marine catalogs.
5. Only tinned wiring should be used in a marine environment. All connections should be properly CRIMPED for STRENGTH and SOLDERED for JUICE. A proper marine or aviation grade shrink seal will produce a connection that will last for decades. Older Catalinas did not have tinned wiring, and connections used inexpensive automotive components. In a salt water environment, any non-tinned wire older than five years is suspect. Non-tinned wire will corrode INSIDE the insulation. This corrosion won't be visible and can only be detected with a proper resistance/continuity check of the wiring with a multi-meter OR when the wiring shorts out.
6. Golf cart (6V) batteries wired in series are a good alternative to heavier 4 and 8D batteries. The standard Catalina 34 Mark I battery compartment can hold 4 for a 440 amp hour bank.
7. Planning a battery bank starts with an electrical budget--spend the time to do the math to find out how much capacity you need. Plan on using 50% of the capacity and you'll extend the life of the bank by avoiding deep discharge--e.g., if your budget is 200 amp hours for a weekend trip, install a 400 amp-hour capacity bank. Lot's of good discussion about this on the web. Best bet: Google for "energy budget" or "planning boat electrical system." Lot's of good discussion on the sailnet.com website as well.
8. A good multi-meter is a necessary tool for proper electrical maintenance, avoid inexpensive models. Any model built by the Fluke company is a good place to start.
9. A good battery monitoring system is worth the money. A good example is a Link 10, 2000 etc. It is essentially a "health monitor/fuel gauge" for your DC system. These systems are a bit expensive, but will pay for themselves by saving just a couple of batteries from early replacement.
10. Keeping batteries properly "topped off" is the key to long life. This is best accomplished with a good charger powered by shore power, or a solar/wind system, or a good three stage regulator on a properly sized alternator. An ideal system uses a combination of two or more of these. Keep in mind that there is a limit as to the maximum size alternator small diesel engines are capable of running. With the Cat 34, earlier boats equipped with the M-25 variants are limited as to how much of an alternator they can drive. This is not as bleak as it sounds, however, because at the typical RPM range that we operate a 60 or 75 amp alternator can be more efficient than a larger alternator. The key is a good external, three-stage regulator.
I'm sure other folks have other ideas to add to this list, so please chime in!
Cheers,
Mike
As Mike said in his reply, the wires should be soldered and crimped. I replaced all the connectors on my charging/starting circuit this weekend. It is an easy project. I still have the factory wiring on a fresh water boat. When I hit the start button the first time after putting everything back together, I almost fell over the transom as it started so quickly. Definitely worth the hour or so of time and the cost was way less that the cost of a tow. :D
I bought 4 of the Trojan T105's today from a local distributor. My plan is to install them for the 2006 season and limp along for the rest of this year with my 200 amp hour (at best) capacity. I received no paper work or manufacturer guarantee. The distributor said that they guaranty for 6 months on a "pro rated basis". I am going to call Trojan but would be curious as to other's experience.
Just for kicks, I weighed the batteries and found 3 of them to be 58 1/2 pounds and 1 weighed in at 57 1/2 pounds. Need I be concerned? The electrolyte level looks about the same in all batteries. I haven't charged them yet or performed a load test.
I haven't measured my existing battery compartment yet. Some of the comments on this and other threads suggest no modification required and some talk about modest reconfigurement. My boat is 1988 - hull # 535. Might I get lucky with just a tight fit? I know there is detail in previous tech notes but just curious if anyone with the same vintage c34 had has had experience with this conversion.
Thanks much,
Ken
I installed 4 T105's this year in my 1998 (#1414). I had to enlarge the stock battery boxes by about 1" each...just cut them in half and fiberglassed in a spacer. So far so good...they crank the engine with no problem and power my electronics with no problems. I also installed a new TruCharge system...the old charger cooked my batteries then cooked itself. Overall, I'm very happy with the new systems.
Ken,
We have four T-105's in the battery compartment in Hull 563--you shouldn't have any problem. We cut a 5/8" plywood floor and used high density foam in addition to hold downs in our installation. You might also consider cutting a ventilation hole for the compartment. We used one of the small metal vent covers available through most marine chandleries.
The T105's don't have a built in handle, but you can make a removable one out of old heavy gauge wiring. They are light enough to handle by yourself. I believe there are some pictures on the project page. Take a look at the "electrical system" stuff.
With the four batteries, there is still sufficient room for a fuse holder, shunt for the Link battery monitor and a negative bus. To access these accessories, however, it's necessary to remove one or two of the batteries. A set of quality custom made cables will neaten the installation. If you don't have access to equipment to make cables, most West Marine stores have a crimping tool and heavy duty cutters for customer use in the rigging section. Battery cables should be crimped, soldered and properly shrink wrapped and if you use tinned wire and marine grade terminals, they'll last for an awfully long time! These are some fairly capable batteries (i.e., high capacity). It's also worthwhile to invest in terminal covers to prevent a tool from falling and arcing. At least cover all of the positive terminals. If you use the treated felt pads available for batteries at any automotive store and regularly spray or grease the terminals (e.g., Boeing T-9), you can prevent corrosion.
If you've got a good charging system and keep the discharge rate below 50%, the T105s will give you years of service. Be sure to check the water level occasionally. We find with a steady trickle charge, that it's only necessary to top up the batteries every six months or so. Trojan recommends filling to 1/8" below the top of the inside filler neck.
Catalina installed a grounding wire that runs from the battery compartment to the engine. Be sure to maintain this in your new installation. This wire should be properly sized to take the entire load of the house bank. In our boat, nearly identical to yours I would assume by hull number, there are several PVC tubes fiberglassed into the liner for wiring conduits. You can access them by lifting the aft portion of the port settee (just aft of your macerator pump/holding tank). You'll have to feel underneath to find them by following your wiring. Remember the stock wiring was sized for the original house bank and may require some upgrading to handle a 440 amp system. Our main system DC distribution system is sized/fused to handle 100 amps. If you increase the size of the wire, it may or may not fit in the PVC wiring conduits.
Good luck!
Mike
Ken
John Gardner's Electrical System article is here: http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-electrical-system-upgrade.html
It has pictures of 4 Trojans installed. I installed 4 of them in a friend's C34 a few years ago and we did not have to make any modifications other than a piece of plywood in the bottom so the batteries would sit flat.
Thanks all,
Very helpful comments and suggestions. Since my original post, I have measured my battery compartment and all seems well. I will proceed according to the suggestions here and in the "Project" section of the forum.
thanks again,
Ken