I'm looking at a 2001 34, wk, and I've read the association's FAQ regarding the original rudder and it's inherant problems. Wanting to confirm that the 2001 model came stock with the elliptical, I called Catalina and a tech representative told me that there is no such animal for a Catalina 34. The story I got was this: when Catalina came out with the wing keel, they merely wacked several inches off the traditional fin keel rudder and it didn't work very well. They then redisgned the rudder a bit, but it is not an elliptical rudder. Does anybody know the rest of the story?
ROGER,
I have the 2001 model and whatever rudder it has, it works fine. I have not had any difficulties sailing SF Bay areas. Don't sweat it. It's a good boat. If has the layout you like and the options you want then the only thing to worry about is the price (assuming your survey hasn't found any problems).
Roger
I continue to urge you to do some searching and finding. I KNOW what you are going through with this HUGE website, but I was able to find the answer to what you are looking for in less than two minutes, although with my in-laws new XP computer I couldn't cut and paste the answer as quickly as I could at home.
I used the main website search engine "new rudder." I couldn't spell elliptical.....
Here it is: http://c34.org/faq-pages/faq-elliptical-rudder.html (http://c34.org/faq-pages/faq-elliptical-rudder.html)
PLEEEZE, unless there is something that restricts your time [like looking for or at your new boat], {so THEN feel free to ask}, use the resources here to find and search your subject.
I am NOT a grinch, just an encyclopedia writer who's wirtten it all and only asks that someone crack the book to look.
Happy Holidays,
Stu
PS I'm visiting, and couldn't get into my usual log in screen, so I'm a guest for a week or so.
Roger
I continue to urge you to do some searching and finding. I KNOW what you are going through with this HUGE website, but I was able to find the answer to what you are looking for in less than two minutes, although with my in-laws new XP computer I couldn't cut and paste the answer as quickly as I could at home.
I used the main website search engine "new rudder." I couldn't spell elliptical.....
Here it is: http://c34.org/faq-pages/faq-elliptical-rudder.html (http://c34.org/faq-pages/faq-elliptical-rudder.html)
PLEEEZE, unless there is something that restricts your time [like looking for or at your new boat], {so THEN feel free to ask}, use the resources here to find and search your subject.
I am NOT a grinch, just an encyclopedia writer who's wirtten it all and only asks that someone crack the book to look.
Happy Holidays,
Stu
PS I'm visiting, and couldn't get into my usual log in screen, so I'm a guest for a week or so.
Stu: If you read my message carefully, you would have discerned that I did indeed research the topic. My message indicated a conflict between the websites information and what I was hearing from Catalina. I urge you to read the message carefully before chastising a potential new paying member.
Respectfuly submitted.
You're right Roger, I apologize. We're not in it for the $.
Stu
Roger, I can add a little bit to the rest of the story but you never have it all. It looks like the May,1999 issue of the Mainsheet shows the two rudders for the WING keel. The newer one is slightly elliptical in the forward edge. Both are the same short length. When they changed the design for the rudder on the FIN keel, they made the new rudder 7 inches longer than the old rudder and they shaped the forward edge tho make it elliptical. The new shape has a 20% more surface area by my measurement. Gerry Douglas does not agree with my numbers but thats the way it goes.The Nov,1998 issue of the Mainsheet shows the old and new shapes of the FIN keel rudder. The new rudder is also used on the C36.
I have a FIN keel and I can say that the new design helps to prevent round-ups in heavy weather but it is stiffer to steer. Gerry finds that hard to believe, he says it should be easier to steer. I think that it has to do with the amount of area forward vs.aft of the rudder post in the two designs.
Good luck, I hope this help somewhat.
I have an 88 c34. It had a stock rudder.I called the factory & they told me to send them my old rudder & they would rebuild it into the NEW elliptical shape .....$900 to $1100............RIGHT....So do this... Trace the rudder of a new 34. Place the tracing against your rudder & you will see the difference. Now run a line down the back of your rudder to scribe a new line on the tracing & you have the difference, which will be a small elliptical shape that will max out at 5 or 6 inches at the middle of the back of the rudder. It will just be a small arc that goes from almost nothing to 5"or 6"away from the back (near center) of the rudder & arcs back to almost nothing.
I made this small addition from 1/4" marine plywood (just happen to have a little in the garage). Glue it on with "west epoxy" or the like, then glass it over good & strong, finish smooth & add some bottom paint.
Before i did this my (our) 34 would round up in heavy weather. Sometimes it would round up so hard I couldn't control the boat. After adding the elliptical section it handles like a dream. My wife handles the boat in & out of the dock & she said she could notice the difference the first time away from the dock....Last winter i repitched the prop from 9 to 10 & my wife said she could feel that change also....A last thought. To hold the ellipse square to the rudder is really easy. You need 3 large "c" clamps & 6 paint stir sticks. Clamp the stir sticks to the back of the rudder in pairs ...top,mid,bott...The taper of the rudder will make the sticks form a "V" & they will touch. Just spread each pair apart & slide the plywood into place. The tension held my ellipse in place But you may want to add clamps. Now mix your epoxy & thicken to peanutbutter & go to it...Questions, Call me at 419-334-3071...I don't type will..this has been almost 45min. Phil Spicer
Sailing a 1988 c34....Steamboat...on Sandusky Bay, Ohio
Note :My c34 has a wing keel. Traced the new rudder on a newer 34 with a wing keel. So if you don't have an elliptical rudder you may want to try this add-on. Good luck..Phil Spicer,Steamboat.........c34 #789
I had a grounding incident this last summer. The result was discovered at haul-out this fall. The rudder, at the bottom edge was quite damaged. A new rudder was on the horizon as this one was not repairable. I thought, what a great time to replace it with an elliptical. When our repair guy called Catalina he was informed that the elipitical rudder was designed to work with the Mark II hull design and that to be hydo-dynamically correct the Mark I hull shape would have to be modified. I decided to go with the standard replacement.
That's interesting. I have read in more than a few places that, according to Catalina, the exterior differences between the Mark I and Mark II hulls are all above the waterline. They must of hired a new guy to answer the phone. ( Forgive my cynicism.)
td
PHIL
Your elliptical add-on sounds great! How has it held up after a season of sailing? I really think that this sounds like the answer I need, rather than ship the rudder from NJ to CA for re-shaping. Vanishing Point is also an '88 with a tall rig and a 150% genoa. In race conditions on a 20+ knot day, we lost control of the boat after rounding up and almost hit a harbor buoy. Although I don't race anymore, I have noticed the rounding up even when cruising, and I'm tired of spilling off air or reefing when other boats I'm sailing with are doing just fine. Did you run your idea past Catalina at all?
Bruce :Thanks for the call. It was nice to talk with you. After 2 years I have no problems with the rudder, or rounding up. My wife really likes the difference in how the boat sails and powers. Good luck with your adventure into glass & epoxy. Let me know how the project comes out.
Phil Spicer..........789 Steamboat
I'm a new guest to this site, so please be nice. :)
I saw a C34, probably a 1997 through 1999ish model. It was out of the water and I noticed it had a wing keel, but a rudder that was slightly longer than the keel. I noticed it in particular since this configuration seemed odd. Can anyone opine on this? Am I missing something? Thanks for your thoughts.
Roger,
Just shipped my rudder off to Catalina to be re-cast. I talked to Robert there and he said the new elliptical shape is the only one they do. I guess they don't have the old molds anymore. So you should end up with the new design. I'd be curious to know if you don't get the new one.
Ted
By the way, I just just picked ip my two first place trophies for our club's two Wed. night series. (I know it's not polite to brag, but I figure it's not bragging when I'm talking about the great boat we all share ;)) I'm looking forward racing this summer with the new rudder and maybe trying some races in the spinnaker division. I'll let everyone know how we do.
Congratulations on your two first place awards. ITS FUN TO WIN...As far as the new elliptical rudder, I would be interested to know how you like it and what difference you feel when you tack.
Also, when you get it back, check the clearance when you sweep the rudder a full turn in both directions. I mention this because I had a interference fit between the rudder and the section that exited the hull/skeg. I had to grind off about 1/4 inch to clear the skeg. It was like they put too much glass around the post where it first exits the hull. Grinding off the glass presented another problem. The grinding broke through the glass to the inside of the skeg and I had to fill the skeg so that water could not enter.
I told the factory about this problem and I hope they fix it so you will not have to go thru the same problem. Good lick and let us know how you come out.
Dave
Where did you have to grind off fiberglass? Was it in that curved indentation at the end of the skeg? Did you have to have the rudder off to do it? I ask because if I have to take the rudder on and off to check the fit the raising and lowering of the boat by the yard could get expensive. Do you think it's possible to check the fit by measuring before I put it on? Or hopefully the factory was able to fix the problem. Thanks.
Ted
I had to remove the glass in the curved indentation at the end of the skeg. It was ground out when the boat was on the hard. It needed grinding only on one side. When you moved the rudder in one direction there was interference. But if you moved the rudder in the other direction, it left enough clearance so the you could grind away at the glass without removing the rudder. I hope that you do not need any of this info if the factory did their job. Good Luck...
I had to grind only on one side. So, if you push the rudder to the other side, it left enough room to do the grinding without pulling the rudder. Good Luck
grinding off glass? Are you talking about the skeg area? I had a grounding incident last year which must have slightly bent the rudder post, just enough so the rudder wouldn't turn. I was able to file down about 1/8 of an inch of that last three inched of skeg to allow for it to swing freely. When we returned to the marina I sanded the skeg smooth and put some west system epoxy over it. I put about 200+ miles on the boat getting it back and it seemed to steer just fine, but I wonder if I should just be replacing the entire rudder. Any thoughts? How much is a new rudder for a 1997 model? I guess when I called it was the busy season and gave up, but called a local broker who said it was about $1500., but from what I read it sounds like a good deal more than that. While on the hard I tried to see if there was any loseness in the rudder and it felt as solid as before. Hmmmm.
Randy,
I would suggest you talk to a surveyor. He/she should be able to give you a good answer. I would think that a slight bend like that, which you don't notice in steering, shouldn't be a problem. But an answer from a pro should give you peace of mind. Just my thoughts... As I recall a new rudder was about $1300 plus shipping. vs. about $700 for the re-build. (probaly not possible to re-build one with a bent shaft, but I don't know).
Dave,
Thanks for the info. Hopefully I won't have a problem, but good to know I can fix it at my leisure after the rudder is on, if there is a problem.
Ted
Randy, as long as you do not have any interference between your rudder post and the skeg when you swing the rudder in both the directions, I see no reason to worry about getting a new rudder. If you feel you need one, you'll have to get the $ from the factory. I did not buy a new rudder, I just bought a recasting on top of my old rudder post.Good Luck, Dave
Thank you for your input. That was my thought, it terms of it appreared to be solid and straight when looking at the rudder for and aft with the boat out of the water. I thought I would use the boat this summer and double check everything, but from my initial exam it appeared solid, but I am sure it bent ever so slightly. In sanding the area of the skeg it looked OK from that angle, and several coats of West finished it nicely. If I have to replace the rudder I will do it, but my boat yard won't let you do any work yourself and is known for seriously underestimating labor charges. If I knew it was a fixed price for rudder and labor I probably wouldnt hesitate to amke it like new, but the real test will be to watch carefully how she behaves during this summers Abacos cruise. I might ask around on the surveyor idea too if I could find one in the Ft Pierce area that would be available.
Well I had my rudder put on today. And, sure enough, I had to grind off some of the skeg on the lower starboard side. The port side was fine. I thought it was going to go OK because I carefully measured the rudder and the top of the area where it exits the hull. All semed well, but I didn't notice that the starboard edge did not go straight down. It angled aft slightly and that's the area I had to grind down. I was also able to do the work with the rudder on as it fit fine on the port side. I gound into only one small void which I filled with epoxy and chopped glass. A quick coat of WEST epoxy and Molly Rose hit the water only about 6 hours late.
Dave, did you have to grind the starboard side also? I seems to me the problem stems from the original Mk I hull mold rather than the Mk II rudder mold. The new rudder seems perfectly symetrical and it's the hull that's off. It'll be a few weeks before I sail it. I'll let you know then how the new rudder performs.
Ted
Ted, you and I had a similar problem. I did all the grinding on the skeg and no grinding on the rudder. I took off the glass on the starboard side only. In doing so, I had to grind enough to clear and that put a hole in te skeg. To fix the hole, I had to drill a new hole up higher on te sleg and then I filled the skeg with glass and epoxy
Good Luck, Dave
Sounds like they didn't have the mold quite squared up in that one spot. I guess the older rudders were a bit thinner so it wasn't a problem. I would assume that anyone with an original style Mk I who gets a new or recast rudder will have to grind down that part of the skeg.
Ted