I saw this same issue posted many times, and have read most/all and have TRIED to understand steps that I can take. I am hoping someone can help with a few diagnostic tips that can get me to an answer.
1. After a few hours of sailing (and motoring), and a stop for lunch, with electronics on and radio on. Pushed start button to leave and nothing, no crank, just silence. For the past 18 months since I have had the boat, the engine always started immediately first try. I waiting a few minutes and pushed the button again and it started right up.
2. A week later, engine started right up at the slip, but when restarting after sailing a few hours nothing. Waited a few minutes, tried again and started right up.
3. Today, went to try to figure it out. Unplugged, turned on radio and electronics and let it sit for 3 hours. Pushed button, nothing (radio and alarm and electronics still working fine) Pushed again, started right up and started up 5 times in a row after.
I let it sit for another 2 hours, then I could not start it at all. Tried 10 times and silence each time.
Plugged shore power in and let battery charge for an hour or so, started right up and repeated 5 times with no hesitation.
I have checked the grounding wire and it is solid. I checked the battery cables and all looks tight (pic attached). I looked at all of the connections to the starter/solenoid and everything looks tight with no corrosion.
My initial finding are:
I don't think it is the start button, as when plugged into shore power it fires perfectly and multiple times.
I don't think dead batteries, as the radio/electronics keep playing throughout(?)
Maybe a power loss between the battery and the starter switch when the battery is being drawn down but not dead?
Any thoughts appreciated before I start start sticking screwdrivers in. Thanks in advance.
@rjabara
There is no magic bullet, single-cause, answer here but there are two truisms that apply.
Either (1) the starter solenoid is faulty (doesn't consistently activate the magnetic switch) OR (2) the voltage to the solenoid is low and it cannot activate (pull in) the magnetic switch.
#2 is more likely than #1 and is easier to troubleshoot.
When you cannot activate the starter, the idea is to troubleshoot AT THE solenoid to determine if it has low voltage. if the voltage is low, then find the cause, which can be a handful of causes.
The start switch could indeed be the problem (burned contacts) and has enough V loss so the solenoid pulls in only when the Batts are being charged (14+ V.)
When trying to start (non-start condition) check voltages EVERYWHERE, from the battery to the key switch, to the start switch, to the solenoid. That will help I.D. where the "bottleneck" is occurring. It can also be cumulative, being corroded cable lugs from the battery through the selector switch to the panel, the solenoid. Add up all the V losses and you have a large V loss.
The wiring on the B engines is very different than the Oshkosh Universal M-35 so print out the proper wiring schematic from the Wiki Site MANUALS page and use it to record the V at your key locations. MAKE sure all negative cable connections are clean and tight, as as well as the "S" wire terminals (which energizes the solenoid switch.)
Another approach when you have a no-start, is to bypass the panel and START button and apply a good, known 12v directly to the starter solenoid.
The other check is to hear whether the solenoid switch is indeed pulling-in, but the starter motor is not activating. That's a way different issue and likely needs to have the starter pulled and checked out at a shop. The starter motor not energizing can too, be caused by low V at the battery cable terminal.
Also, it looks like some battery terminals need attention. The cables with the highest load go on any terminal post first and progressively lighter-load wires on top. It sure looks like you have lighter terminals underneath some cable lugs.
Let us know the V readings that you see!
Quote...and nothing, no crank, just silence.
On our M25 engines there was/is an inline fuse between the start button in the cockpit panel and the engine. Details in the Critical Upgrades sticky topic.
Quotean inline fuse between the start button in the cockpit panel and the engine.
Note that the pesky fuse is not present on the (OEM-wired) A and B series engines. The "S" wire is direct to the solenoid.
The panel, etc. is protected by a PB Circuit Breaker on the engine, below the cube Fuel Pump, plus the panel PB Breaker.
If the ProSport 20 in your photo is your AC charger, you should consider upgrading to a better quality AC charger.
Here's some advice: don't just buy a new starter to solve this. Have someone replace the starter solenoid if that's it. I wouldn't rule out your start button either. I know how intermittent they can get.
A friends C30 sunk at the dock. He had his alternator opened and cleaned up but he replaced the starter.
That thing would not start the engine. It acted like low battery or bad connections. Every revolution the crank would almost stop at the top of each cylinder compression. I put the sunken not repaired starter on and put the new one back in it's box. Started right up. The diesel shop he bought this from swore up and down it was the same starter. To rule out the starter button just jump the main terminal on your starter to the solenoid connection (blade term, yellow wire) with a screw driver. IF your solenoid misses the starter will spin but not the motor. If you get nothing this way, the internal connection to that blade connector on the inside will need looked at. In event it misses often, spins but doesn't engage the engine maybe some grease on the throw out would fix it. Hope this helps.
I recently had my statter rebuilt at an electric motor shop. It was getting to be intermittant (not the switch or connections) so I elected to rebuild it before I got stuck somewhere.
Great info, thank you very much. I will check all the voltages and report back.
In the meantime, re: "Another approach when you have a no-start, is to bypass the panel and START button and apply a good, known 12v directly to the starter solenoid." How do I do this?
Thank you.
Rich : I don't know which battery/s you have connected when you are starting? I have my battery selector in ALL and the starter battery engaged. I use as many Volts/Amps that I can muster when starting!!
You can always pull the engine panel and jumper the contacts on the starter button to see if it's OK!!
A few thoughts
Ron, I have it set to 1+2 when starting, but tried all versions (1,2,1+2) and all failed to crank. When on shore power, also tried all versions and all fired right up after it charged for a while.
I was hoping to avoid opening the panel as my project list is long enough. Ignorance is bliss (until it's not)
Quote from: rjabara on September 06, 2024, 09:21:57 AMbypass the panel and START button and apply a good, known 12v directly to the starter solenoid."
How do I do this?
Have you downloaded the parts and service manuals and wiring schematic for your 35B engine?
To bypass the start switch you would put 12v directly on the "S" Terminal at the starter. The wiring schematic will help you -- just follow the wiring from the Start PB Switch to the starter and eliminate the possibility of the Start switch or the "S" wire being bad.
You can also get fancy and make up a PB Remote start switch with a terminal to match the starter "S" terminal and an alligator clip or ring terminal to pull a good 12v supply.
-ken
Note that some of the prior messages talk about a different starter on the (Oshkosh) Universal engines, and although all starters "start", the starter on the (Westerbeke) B engines (25XPB, 35B, etc.) are somewhat different. Unfortunately, I do not have a good photo of those starters.
Ken, here is what I am using, not sure if you can read it as it is very small. Can you identify where I should put the 12V? Is it where the yellow-red wire connects to the starter?
That is not even close to the OEM wiring on the B engines.
The concept is simple, apply 12v to the "S" terminal on the starter.
I said, the schematic and manuals for the M35B are on the Wiki Site.
https://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Manuals (https://c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Manuals)
If you are sketchy about following wiring schematics and locating the starter "S" terminal, you need "hands-on guidance."
Being unsure of what's what, you probably need to get a qualified assistant to help troubleshoot this.
You have about enough energy stored in your battery bank to get hurt or weld something to your starter case if you happen to short out the wrong thing.
Ken is right. That diagram has an ammeter, which your Mark 1-1/2 boat certainly does NOT have.
I was one of the people having very similar issues to you. One thing I noticed is that on the times that I pressed the starter button and nothing happened, there were no changes to the gauges. Normally when it starts, the gauges all move to the left while holding the start button. This acted more like I wasn't even pressing the button.
I replaced the starter button ($30 fix) and have not had the issue again - although I admit that I am not 100% sure it is cured.
Assuming you have two batteries separated by the 1-2-Both switch, can you reproduce the problem with each battery individually? When unable to start, does moving to BOTH position help? That test will eliminate issues from either battery to the switch.
If you haven't already, physically try to move/wiggle then tighten all the battery connectors between the engine, switch and battery, including those at the battery switch. Look for loose battery lugs.
Sometimes a loose connection will still show voltage but not let enough current flow.
Only then would I replace parts.
Thanks, all. I'll tighten things up, check the voltages at each circuit and perhaps replace the the button as a starting point.
The wiring diagram was in the original owners manual, so not sure what that is about, but will look in the wiki.
Kyle, when the button didn't produce a crank, I tested it using all 3 positions. All failed.
Rich
Rich : Are you sure that you have a 4 cylinder, 35hp, M35B engine? The reason I ask is because I didn't believe that it was available until 1995!!
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on September 07, 2024, 09:45:47 AMRich : Are you sure that you have a 4 cylinder, 35hp, M35B engine? The reason I ask is because I didn't believe that it was available until 1995!!
A thought
If NOT that explains a lot of things. If its NOT an "A" or "B" engine then there's a couple things we need to reconsider as far ar what to look for!
Quote from: rjabara on September 07, 2024, 09:35:40 AMThanks, all. I'll tighten things up, check the voltages at each circuit and perhaps replace the the button as a starting point.
The wiring diagram was in the original owners manual, so not sure what that is about, but will look in the wiki.
Kyle, when the button didn't produce a crank, I tested it using all 3 positions. All failed.
Rich
Rich
WHAT manual - the title or the publication number, or photo, please?
Sorry I have been unresponsive, just back in country after 3 weeks. Went to the boat today (before I saw your messages) to try to figure it out. I took apart the cockpit panel and inspected the start button. The connections were clean and tight, voltage reading at .4. I checked the connection at the starter assembly, which included a 20 amp fuse before it got to the starter assembly (picture attached). The fuse looked old but not blown. Cleaned the connections, replaced the fuse, plugged it back into the starter assembly and it started right up.
Ron, I think you may be right as I dig deeper, may not be an M35B :oops: , as only 30hp. Here is a photo. Maybe an M-35? I will be back at the boat Saturday and send a picture of the original Catalina Operating Manual that I have. In the meantime maybe you can identify by this pic I had in my phone.
Thanks again,
Rich
Rich
She's an M-35. You should hook up a hi temp alarm - thats what the brass pipe plug in the thermostat cap is for.
Ron,
by the color she looks like an M-35A but the wiring isn't 35A. Did Universal use that color before Westerbeke changed the wiring?
Rich : Another connection to check is the ground on the engine. It's out of the way, but something to check.
I'm very curious that you have a M35B engine in a 1990 C34 designed hull!! I say that because when I replaced my M25XP engine it would have taken way tooo much carpentry and interior modification to stuff a 4 cylinder engine in that engine compartment that was made for a 3 cylinder engine !!
A few thoughts
Ron, it was sold to me as a 30HP engine. Some of the notes I have from the original owner shows "B" and MK1.5, but now not sure on either, lol. I'll look at the manual again tomorrow when I am there.
Engine ground looks to be in good shape.
Anyway, as mentioned, I got it to start reliably after playing with the in-line fuse wire to the starter assembly/solenoid. Probably not a permanent solution however so I will look to replace that wire/fuse assembly.
Rich
rich : Get rid of that glass inline fuse and go to a "stab-in" fuse and holder. Then I believe that all of your starting problems will go away!! Looks Like your engine ground is NOT corroded!! :thumb:
Yes, it is a 30hp engine made by Universal (Oshkosh), not Westerbeke !
A thought
Rich
See the bottom of the last page of Rodd's article.
https://pbase.com/mainecruising/universal_wiring_harness_upgrade&page=all
Go ahead and bookmark Rodd's pages - you will refer to them often!
https://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects
https://marinehowto.com/
I'm troubled why the engine model is such a question. Regardless of what 👨 ual was aboard or what a PO said, the engine model is painfully obvious!
Thank you for the links. Very helpful.
I wasn't sure if the manufacturer omitted the "A" or "B" or "AC" from these labels, so as a new owner not that obvious to me, but still learning.
Thanks for your help.
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 03, 2024, 08:50:46 PM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
by the color she looks like an M-35A but the wiring isn't 35A. Did Universal use that color before Westerbeke changed the wiring?
Sometimes with Ken one requires a scorecard or translator decoder ring. :D
On another boating forum, I just recently "discovered" the secret to Ken's invention of "A" series engines. After reading it, I noted:
"I get disheartened by this "XPA" thing, because it confuses the issue of an XPB which is a completely different engine than an M25 or M25XP. If he would just type M25XP space space space A(C), it would be much clearer, i.e., M25XP A - there IS an XPB engine, there IS NOT an XPA engine!!!" and "My take is: So, your M25XPA(C) is simply an M25XP painted grey with a Catalina cockpit panel and associated wiring." I don't consider the "A" features Ken notes blow added to be "of the engine" - they are warning buzzer type things, not the beast of the engine itself.
Here it is:
Kloeber Engine History https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/message/114243
On Mon, Sep 9, 2024 David wrote:
@Ken
You stated that my motor is a Westerbeke. It says Universal on it. Was Westerbeke doing some sub manufacturing for Universal?
***
David
Medalist Universal Motors in Oshkosh WI built the original Universals, e.g., Atomic 4, 5411, M-18, 5421, M-25, M-25XP, M-35, M4-30, etc.
In 1990 Westerbeke purchased and eventually moved Universal production to its Avon MA location (current location is Tauton MA.)
Regarding Universal model numbers: After the purchase, Wb continued to produce the same M-25XPs, etc., (built using Kubota engines) but transitioned to manufacturing them (in 1993) with the designation "A" - e.g., M-25XPA, M-35A, etc., which had these mods:
1) Engine color changed from Copper-Bronze to silver and finally to Ice Blue.
2) Changed the engine wiring to its "Westerbeke standard" (to mimic the "Westerbeke propulsion engine" wiring that it used since forever.) These have the convoluted wiring that's a nightmare to troubleshoot when an engine alarm fails (it's frequently due to the harness.) The harness is also more intricate and difficult to work on than it should be. KISS. (But Wb probably saves twenty dollars per engine when installing it.)
3) Added onto the "A" series engines:
(a) An on-engine, 20-a Circuit Breaker (in part it protects the feed up to the cockpit panel);
(b) A Glow-Plug-Preheat Solenoid;
(c) A fail-safe shutdown; i.e., cuts power to the fuel pump if oil pressure is lost (which doesn't always work/shut down on all models and (IMO) is pretty useless and troubleshooting becomes a nightmare if the harness fails and the fuel pump won't run);
(d) Modified where/how the Oil Pressure Alarm Switch is located/configured,
(e) Provided for an Oil Pressure Sender (a Gauge is optional on the Wb "Universal" panels -- apparently, Catalina never "noticed the benefit" of an Oil Pressure Gauge);
(f) A High-Temp Switch to the Thermostat Cap.
4) Produced (and still produces) a "(C) series" -- e.g., your M-25XPA(C) and now, e.g., the M-25XPB(C), M-35B(C)). "C" engines are wired to "C"atalina's spec (so the harness mates with Catalina cockpit panels instead of "Universal" brand panels, which are identical to, and simply rebranded, "Westerbeke" panels.) One difference with the "(C)" standard is that Westerbeke/Universal panels have different engine alarm wiring (a second cable and plug, whereas Catalina's engine and alarm wiring pass through a single harness plug.) There are probably other differences but (although I've studied both the Wb and Wb "(C)" schematics) I haven't looked for every difference -- I just know about the alarm from the practical aspect of wiring both types of panels.
5) The "A" (and now "B") engines continue to use the 9-pin harness plug, but it is higher quality than the disastrous (reportedly "hot glue") Gummy Bear plugs that Catalina used to mate to the Oshkosh Universal engines and is also on the back of the OEM Catalina Panels (by Seaward.)
In 1996-1998 Westebeke transitioned from the Universal "A" series to the "B" engines, i.e., M-35B, M-40B, M-50B, M-25XPB**, M3-20B** (** current models.) The "B" series continue with essentially the same mods as on the
"A" engines. Although Wb piggy backed onto the same model numbers it's just marketing -- although they are still built using Kubota engines, the only commonality between the "B" engines and former (Oshkosh and "A") engines, is the number of cylinders.
One owner I know, when repowering from an Oshkosh M-25 to a Westerbeke/Universal M-25XPB, ripped out the Westerbeke wiring and rewired it to the "old" system. Much simpler and (IMO) better!
Quote from: KWKloeber on October 07, 2024, 06:18:50 PMStu
I'm not at all following what you are claiming.
Are you saying that Universal never made
(!) ANY "A" or "A(C") engine (e.g., M-35A(C)?
Or
(2) specifically an M-25XPA or M-25XPA(C) engine?
No, Ken, I'm not "claiming" anything.
What I wrote was:
"I get disheartened by this "XPA" thing, because it confuses the issue of an XPB which is a completely different engine than an M25 or M25XP. If he would just type M25XP space space space A(C), it would be much clearer, i.e., M25XP A - there IS an XPB engine, there IS NOT an XPA engine!!!"So, Ken, instead of you typing M25XPA, please type M25XP A.
That's all. :D