Catalina 34

Over the winter the admiral mandated that I remove the diesel.
The 25xp will be removed soon.
I have purchased the thunderstruck 12kw kits. Anybody have any experience with electric propulsion on a Catalina 34?

Quote from: robertr0816 on June 17, 2024, 05:35:21 AM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Anybody have any experience with electric propulsion on a Catalina 34?

I've been here "since forever," and, no, I don't recall anyone installing one, much less even discussing the possibility.


Issues you will always find when doing research on the subject:
What voltage; if different than 12V how do you deal with 12V equipment; where do you put all the batteries (OK, now empty engine space);  how big do my batteries need to be; what's my range; will LiFePO4 batteries work...

You know all the usual suspects. 

Please keep us advised.  This would make an excellent article for Mainsheet magazine.

Robert— Why did your wife "mandate you remove the diesel"?

Quote from: Noah on June 17, 2024, 08:43:24 AMRobert— Why did your wife "mandate you remove the diesel"?

we are on the long island sound, so there is some periods of no or very little wind. We endup motorsailing a significant amount. Unfortunately conversations and diesels don't mix. She likes to talk. I tried dampening the noise. But it was not significant enough. So her car is electric and now her boat will be as well.

I actually did some intensive research over the winter and settled on a 48v system. I will be adding a 48v to 12v converter for a 12v battery. The main battery is a 20kw lifepo4 48v 400ah bank.
One of my main question is placement of the battery I don't believe our battery area currently by the sink can fit four 8d size batteries.
The range will be tested and if not sufficient we would add a generator in some sort of enclosure. Current gas/propane generators are very quiet and have clean power at very high wattages (30amps).
I will for sure document the steps and will be hoping for critique and better ideas if you all see me doing something wrong.

I'm very interested in this project. I've been reading up on it and naturally watching YouTube videos. For my use, boat on an inland lake in Missouri, I think it makes a lot of sense. Kick it in and out of the slip, motor about a mile to get out of the cove where you put the sails up. Very little range is required.

What worries me about your application is this quote: "We endup motorsailing a significant amount".

If you do the simple math you can get an idea of the range. 12KW motor and a 20KW battery, you can run it at full power for 1.67 hours. At 6.5 Knots that would give you a range of around 11NM. Of course, you can pull the power back go slower and extend the range. Say at 1/2 power you'd be drawing 6KW and the battery would last 3.3 hours. But then you be going slower, say 4.5 knots, and your range would be around 15 NM. Not very far for a cruising boat that may need to cover some miles when the wind is light.

I have another sailboat boat on Lake Michigan. It's not uncommon for us to just put the hammer down and motor 50NM in a day to make it to somewhere before it gets dark. It would take an unreasonable amount of batteries to make that happen.

Overall I like the idea of electric propulsion in a sailboat. We all hate listening to the diesel. However, you just can't beat the energy density of diesel fuel if you need range.

Jack

You are right about the limited range,
That is why solar and a small generator will need to be added as a backup. A small inverter generator in a purpose built enclosure would give us plenty of energy to motor out of the cove and keep motoring for hours at a decent speed. I was thinking of it being some sort of hybrid system. The new inverter generators are very quiet and very easy to maintain, they are cheap compare to diesel generators. They are also very efficient, a honda 2000 with .95 gallons at full load will run for 3.4 hours.

Also, our boats don't go fast enough to get any significant "regen" benefit. There are plenty of spaces onboard to load up batteries, if you want to get creative with 48v battery case sizes, long wire runs and sacrificing storage space. You didn't mention whether you have solar. If you don't, you should add it. This will be interesting experiment to follow. Keep us posted.

You posted while I was writing so
1. Good to know you are adding solar.
2. Your statement " . The new inverter generators are very quiet and very easy to maintain, they are cheap compare to diesel generators. They are also very efficient, a honda 2000 with .95 gallons at full load will run for 3.4 hours."
They are not any quieter than your 25XPX if you are in cockpit? Plus you can't (or I wouldn't recommend) running a Honda/gas or propane down below. So you might want to rethink that inverter generator part. But I am not an expert on propane conversions. I have been at anchor with neighbors running Hondas and it was not relaxing.

Might want to check with your insurance company. They may require a survey to determine if the installation meets ABYC standards before you get down the path of no return.

Quote from: Colonel Butler on June 17, 2024, 01:56:47 PMMight want to check with your insurance company. They may require a survey to determine if the installation meets ABYC standards before you get down the path of no return.

good idea.

Robert

I'm not sure your idea of using a Honda 2000 Generator to extend range is going to work. The "2000" is for Watts, so it puts out 2KW. Your electric motor needs 12KW at full power, so the generator is not even close. You should expect more like 1/6th power from the generator. Maybe that would move you along at a knot or two.

If you think about it for a minute, you can't expect to replace a 3 cylinder diesel with a one cylinder gas engine and get the same amount of power. Having 2KW in reserve for docking might be nice for docking, but you're not going to cover miles with it.

Also, just looking at it without any inefficiency, it would take that 2Kw generator 10 hours to recharge your 20KW battery bank from zero.

I hate to sound like a nattering nabob of negativity, but there are some serious technical hurdles.

Guys : Last year I had a Generac 14KW installed. It runs on naturel gas, but quiet it is not!!  Of course the enclosure it's was not made with sound proofing!!  It kicks in every Tues.PM for a maintenance check.

With my M25XP engine - on two occasions I've had a marina owner and on another a dockmaster say to me when I was throwing off my bow lines, "Aren't you going to start your engine"? which was already running!!! The moral of that story is that you can get the M25XP to run smoothly and quietly!!

A few thoughts

If your on Facebook check out the "Catalina 34 sailboat enthusiasts" group. James Ure replaced his diesel with electric.  Interesting project.

Steve—If it is helpful information can you please post a link to it?

Ok, I searched him out. Here is a link to his thread. Very interesting.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/catalina34enthusiasts/permalink/1443257403119380/?mibextid=W9rl1R
Hopefully you don't have to join that group (I did) to read it.

QuoteWith my M25XP engine - on two occasions I've had a marina owner and on another a dockmaster say to me when I was throwing off my bow lines, "Aren't you going to start your engine"? which was already running!!! The moral of that story is that you can get the M25XP to run smoothly and quietly!!

Ron, I've also had that happen.  Shamrock's M35 is smooth and certainly quiet enough to have a normal conversation when motoring.  The engine room blower does add to the sound level but that can be turned off.  Much quieter than my Honda 2000.
Jim

Robert,

I've found that doing your own engineering to be very expensive and the results usually hit or miss. I'd try to find someone who did what you want to do hopefully more than one since it sounds like you're already committed in a big way.

I had a friend several years ago who purchased the boat he'd always wanted, his wife Nina was not happy and said she'd never set foot on the boat. So he named his boat "NO NINA"! You've always got options.

Carbon, the motor is not really meant to be run at 100%.
If I want to achieve 4 knots, the 20kw bank should give me several hours of quiet motoring or i can turn on a generator and help the bank along. A 5kw pulsar generator would be able to supply the 30amp to the battery charger and also allow me to run air conditioning, with no issues.
Below is some data of a 32 foot Pearson with the same motor I purchased. I think with electric propulsion, you have to design it for the purpose you intend to use. All I want is to be able to go around long island.
If I was cruising down to the caribeans, then I would add a kubota generator and run a hybrid system.
32 feet Pearson converted  (http://dan.pfeiffer.net/10m/electric_drive_performance.htm)

Noah posted the full Facebook link for the 86 electric conversion. It's currently or was listed on Boat Trader

https://www.boattrader.com/boats/make-catalina/model-34/fuel-electric/

I'm currently working on turning mine into a parallel hybrid with the M25XP...slow-tracked while I clear a backlog of other projects.  I previously converted a Hunter 25 to electric and have done a bunch of hull drag and prop calcs for both it and the Catalina.  PM me if you're interested.

Be careful with battery placement as it can affect the trim of the boat.  My old Hunter had a distinct backwards lean with just 72V x 100Ah mounted under the cockpit.

For general motoring, 3-4 kt is a good speed.  Anything more just starts wasting power.   400W of solar charged me during the week and generally kept up with me while cruising - even though I installed an induction stove to replace the portable Coleman.

That said, an electric auxiliary encourages you to use the wind whenever possible.  Motor sailing gains a new relevance.  400W can counteract your morning coffee and getting under way, but would be agonizingly slow without the battery to save it up for shorter bursts. There is still something to be said for a diesel that moves you endlessly in a straight line at 5-7kt when you just want to be somewhere.

I am looking for a favorable place to have the large battery bank.

The dimensions are 38"Long X 15"Wide x 10 height.

what do you guys think would be the best place?. all tanks on the boat are going to be replaced so i have many options. Keep in mind, i wont have a gas tank.

Quote from: robertr0816 on August 09, 2024, 06:30:53 PMI am looking for a favorable place to have the large battery bank.

The dimensions are 38"Long X 15"Wide x 10 height.

what do you guys think would be the best place?. all tanks on the boat are going to be replaced so i have many options. Keep in mind, i wont have a gas tank.

I'm wondering what the battery bank weighs. It would seem the weight would have a big impact on the importance of its location.

My back of the napkin math says it should weigh about 300 Pounds.

Could you put it somewhere near where the engine is? That would keep it low and on the center line. That seems ideal.

For the 48v bank We are looking at 308lb.

I will also replace the old 12v bank and add 2 12vlifepo4,could be 130 pounds.

This seems like a classic aircraft Weight & Balance problem. It's not very hard, just need to know the weight and arm for the items being removed & installed. Also need to know the boat's current CG (center of gravity) with respect to some "datum" (bow, stern, mast).

Once you have all that it's just arithmetic to know how much you've moved the CG. Ideally I think you'd like to keep it the same to make sure she still floats on her lines.

If you would like to math this out, let me know, I can help.

Thank you carbon.

I was thinking of starting with the liquid weight the numerous tanks theoretically have at capacity.
On my c34 we have the two water tanks. The diesel tank and the blackwater tank.

Plan:
Removing diesel tank.25 gal.(at capacity is 175 pounds)
Removing the waste tank. 30 gal.(250 pounds at capacity)
I can remove one of the water tanks.

My first inclination is to place the 48 bank where the waste water tank is.

If you look at the weights of things, this is what I'm coming up with

Generally Aft:

Diesel: 25 gallons @ 6 pounds per gallon plus the weight of the tanks & plumbing. 175 Pounds sounds about right.

Engine: Universal 25XP, 285 Pounds. Plus Muffler and other plumbing & Fittings. Estimate total 400 Pounds

Generally near Center:

Waste Tank: 30 Gallons at 8 pounds per gallon (240) plus tank & Plumbing. Around 275 pounds

Forward Water Tank: 26 Gallons, 208 Pounds. Plus tank & plumbing around 235 Pounds in total.

In general terms, you are removing 575 pounds that are generally aft and around 510 pounds that are generally near the center. What we don't yet know is the weight of the electric motor, controller and the various wires and dodads. Taking it all out, the boat should remain pretty well balanced.

Where to put the big battery? Probably anywhere would be Ok given the relatively balanced weight coming out.  However, I still think putting it behind where the engine was would keep it low for stability and keep the heavy wire runs short. And it would probably be the best place for balance.





 

Don't forget, the early boats have a port list. A little more weight on starboard could help overcome the port list.
Just another thing to think about as you balance the boat. Good luck with the project.
  Phil