I replaced the gauges and wiring harness to the engine. I'm not sure where the fuel pump should be connected. Help!
Pete
More info
Which engine does she have
What do you mean "replaced" it? With what, from what source. Is it a custom made harness or a hunk of wire between two points.
Picture of what you had before you replaced whatever you replaced?
The boat had the original wiring harness and the PO hadn't done the critical upgrade. I bought the replacement from CatalinaDirect. The previous was the standard RV connector, but the fuel pump isn't part of that harness, in either case. In the original, the fuel pump connects to the ammeter, which I replaced with a voltmeter.
To say the best/easiest way to wire the pump, need to know: Did you butt crimp the expensive hunks of wire from CD onto your engine harness, or did you use the non-ABYC compliment terminal strip that CD also sells?
Quote from: KWKloeber on June 01, 2024, 06:45:57 PMDid you crimp the expensive hunks of wire from CD to your engine harness, or did you use thr non-ABYC compliment terminal strip that CD sells?
That burns almost as much as the original harness...
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For the M25XP, the fuel pump should come on with the key switch.
In the original diagram, I believe battery is red and alternator is orange; both are connected via the ammeter and go to "B" on the key switch. That means "A" / purple is the switched side and the fuel pump should be connected to it.
You should be able to trace the wire from the pump to figure out which end it terminates at.
Quote from: High Current on June 01, 2024, 09:16:46 PMQuote from: KWKloeber on June 01, 2024, 06:45:57 PMDid you crimp the expensive hunks of wire from CD to your engine harness, or did you use thr non-ABYC compliment terminal strip that CD sells?
That burns almost as much as the original harness...
——-
For the M25XP, the fuel pump should come on with the key switch.
In the original diagram, I believe battery is red and alternator is orange; both are connected via the ammeter and go to "B" on the key switch. That means "A" / purple is the switched side and the fuel pump should be connected to it.
You should be able to trace the wire from the pump to figure out which end it terminates at.
The easiest way to hook up the Facet depends on the answer to my question.
Just to be clear, the fuel pump wiring is not part of the replacement harness. It has ring connectors and the positive and negative wires, fwiw.
For the replacement, I used ring connectors and replaced the wiring from the engine to the new gauges also using ring connectors. All of the gauges are working correctly.
Pete : From what I've seen the electric lift pump for the M25XP engine is wired direct to the "ON pole" of the key switch!!!
Mine was NOT wired thru the trailer connector, but a separate wire direct from the Facit pump to the key switch.
A thought
Quote from: Pete G on June 02, 2024, 05:27:18 AMJust to be clear, the fuel pump wiring is not part of the replacement harness. It has ring connectors and the positive and negative wires, fwiw.
For the replacement, I used ring connectors and replaced the wiring from the engine to the new gauges also using ring connectors. All of the gauges are working correctly.
Pete
Ok so you didn't just eliminate the RV plugs and run new wire between where they were and use thr CD terminal strip. Good!
The wire run to the fuel pump was redundant. All is needed is a 12v supply when the key is on. Yes, you can run it from the panel (any 12v terminal when the key is on, such as the key switch "I" terminal, or any "+" terminal on any gauge or the tach.
However, being redundsng, I do not do that on my new harnesses. I tap the Alternator Excite circuit in the engine compartment and run it to the pump.
Depending on your alternator you can do this a few ways:
1) Make a special Y plug or pigtail that splits back to the fuel pump from where the excite (purple) wire plugs into the alt regulator wire.
2) If the Alt has a screw terminalfor the excite circuit, run a wire from there to the Facet.
3) Use a yellow butt connector to tap the purple excite wire to power the Facet.
Questions on that just hollar.
(If you had used the CD terminal strip then you could have just put the Facet power wire into the terminal with the excite circuit.)
Ken
I went with the pigtail option. I verified that the fuel pump was only turning on with the ignition. However, I'm not able to get the boat to start. I removed and cleaned the fuel separator. I checked that fuel is flowing (and bled the separator). If I spray starter fluid into the air intake, the boat begins to start, but doesn't run. The engine cranks well.
Did you open the bleed screw slightly to get the air out of the system?
FWIW - a while back I couldn't get my M25XP to start. It ran fine the day before. Turns out that the engine shutdown cable didn't push the lever on the engine back to the engine running position, even though the handle at the engine control panel was pushed completely down. Something to add to your troubleshooting list.
Quote from: Pete G on June 03, 2024, 06:34:54 PMIf I spray starter fluid into the air intake
NEVER, EVER, USE STARTER FLUID IN A DIESEL ENGINEYou can bend a rod, crack a piston ring, or blow a hole in the cylinder sleeve. Besides those things to the engine, it can ruin your day.
Pete
Did you use 1/4" quick-disconnect terminals on the excite wire to mate to the Alt excite plug?
Did you bleed at the injector pump?
Did you bleed at the secondary filter?
Because you messed with the primary filter, one suspect is a vacuum leak there. Always make sure she starts before messing with anything in the fuel supply train, then you are not chasing shadows wondering what the cause is for a no-start due to fuel.
Very useful to troubleshoot air leak issues in the fuel supply train:
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/topic/if_you_have_fuel_line/106417680
The XP has (IMO) a stupid bleed system and I have recommended on here before that (IMO) owners should change it to the bleed system as I installed mine.
I bled at the filter. Will try the injector pump on Friday when I get back to the boat
FWIW, it wouldn't start before I touched the fuel system.
Quote from: Pete G on June 04, 2024, 05:47:40 AMFWIW, it wouldn't start before I touched the fuel system.
Things to troubleshoot for
Is the IP receiving, good clean fuel; constant solid flow, not spurting air.
- If fuel flow is good, bleed the injectors.
- If the fuel flow is bad, is there a vacuum leak in the fuel train from the tank to the IP. Bleed at the IP. Is the checkvalve in the primary filter ok?
Quote from: KWKloeber on June 04, 2024, 08:56:13 PMQuote from: Pete G on June 04, 2024, 05:47:40 AMFWIW, it wouldn't start before I touched the fuel system.
Things to troubleshoot for
Is the IP receiving, good clean fuel; constant solid flow, not spurting air.
- If fuel flow is good, bleed the injectors.
- If the fuel flow is bad, is there a vacuum leak in the fuel train from the tank to the IP. Bleed at the IP. Is the checkvalve in the primary filter ok?
Add to those ^^^: make sure the fuel pump is after the primary filter. There is a small filter in the bottom of the canister fuel pumps and it should NOT be the first in line from the tank.
There's also this from the always helpful 101 Topics:
Bleeding 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6377.0.html
There are lots of links in that topic and it would do you well to read them all, very worthwhile subject, especially for M25 and M25XP engines.
Pete : All a diesel needs to run is clean Air and CLEAN FUEL !! What did the bowl of the Racor filter look like when you change it? - I hope that you filled the new filter full of fuel before you screwed it back on??
Blead Blead Blead until you get clean fuel at the injection pump!!!
A few thoughts
Pete : Are you using the M25XP bleed knob on the starboard side of the engine at the injection pump??
A thought
Update:
The air bleed screw broke off immediately when I tried to open it. I moved to the injectors, per the above recommendations and only had fuel flowing from from the first injector. I verified flue flow to the overflow. I next swapped the fuel filter, left it loose, and ran the pump until fuel spilled out. I moved back to the injectors, but with the same result. The fuel coming through is clean. I plan on repeating the bleeding at the filter again and going back through the previous steps. Suggestions welcome.
New update. No change.
Couple things come to mind... where are you checking for fuel at the injectors? You say you're verifying fuel flow to the overflow. Are you speaking of fuel at the return line to the tank?
If you crank over the engine, are you getting any signs of combustion? If the system is bled to the bleed screw amd then on to the return line to the tank, I would think the next step would be to open the high pressure line at each injector and turn the engine over with the starter. Repeat that for each injector and you should have enough fuel at the injectors to get it to start and clear the remaining small amounts of air.
This explanation though is offered with the caveat that I am not sure exactly what your process is to date. The way you've written your process is a bit unclear for me to understand.
I opened the high pressure lines and I'm getting no fuel to 2 of them. I suspect a failure in the injection pump. I could tell that the mechanic at the yard took a look - left the batteries to ALL and the keys in the ignition! Waiting for confirmation. 1 available on eBay.
Reading in on the Kubota cross-reference, new at $699 vs $2200 for the marine version. Rebuild kit is about $30.
I would consider rebuilding. Mechanical injection pumps are well understood by diesel mechanics and are built in such a way that they can be refurbished. It's at least worth looking into before going straight to a replacement.
Pete : I hope that you went to the Kubota dealer and purchased /installed a new bleed valve?
Do you have a diesel truck engine repair company in town?
A few thoughts
The bleeder valve seems specific to the marine version - $30 valve and $15 shipping. Sign. No readily available replacement injector pumps out there - everything is orderable but out of stock. I pulled the trigger on a remanufactured unit and will rebuild the one I remove as a spare. Pricey bleeder valve ordered, as well.
Pete : I wrote a Mainsheet tech note article on removing the M25XP injection pump and reinstalling it. I took it to a diesel truck engine shop and they rebuilt it. I listed the cost ?, but it was not exorbitant.
I can assure you that an extra injection pump is NOT on my spare parts inventory!!
A few thoughts
Pete : BYW, with a different injection pump you are going to have to retime that engine!! Good Luck!!
A thought
It's the same model pump from the same model engine - I would assume the same shims, but I'll check. Thanks.
Quote from: Pete G on June 17, 2024, 06:49:06 AMThe bleeder valve seems specific to the marine version
The bleed valve assembly is standard on the D-950 Kubota Engine (B7200 Kubota tractor, etc) , not a "Marine Part"
Kubota current P/N 14311-60505 (replaces 14311-60500; 14311-60504; 14311-60580)
It's on Amazon, eBay, and all over the internet
Had you tried Kumar Bros for an IP?
@KW - I didn't see the part number from the Kubota manual - perhaps it varies by application? Part ordered.
Kumar Bros doesn't carry IP, but bookmarked as a source for parts.
Pete : Did you try an automotive store. I do a lot of shopping at TRAC Auto and Advanced auto!!
A thought
Quote from: Pete G on June 20, 2024, 04:26:09 AM@KW - I didn't see the part number from the Kubota manual - perhaps it varies by application? Part ordered.
See, I maintain relevance in my old age by supplying obscure part numbers!!
Correct, it's not in all Kbu D950 (XP cousin) manuals -- it depends on what equipment the Kbu engine went into.
It is in the Kbu D850 (M25 cousin) manual (but again not in all of them.)