Last weekend, coming back from a sail, I noticed the cabin was very smoky. Shut engine off and sailed to a nearby dock. Closer examination revealed water gushing from the nipple/exhaust riser area. I was able to limp back to my slip, which was pretty close. Engine temp stayed normal. Here is a video of what is going on.
https://youtube.com/shorts/UnRdK4REvL8?si=ymg-kRBSAhbFxa7k
Any suggestions on how to approach this problem? I am guessing I need to pull the exhaust off and either get a new one from Catalina Direct, or make one myself, but could there be an easier fix? I did recently change the HX zinc, and this was the first time I took the boat out after that change, not sure if that had anything to do with it. This is a '86 C34, M25 engine.
Thanks,
Junaid
It does appear your nipple failed.
Here are some Tips & Tricks for riser replacement; the article also notes previous replacement tech notes.
February 2016 Vol 34 #1
Muffler & Exhaust Riser Replacement (HTML) (PDF)
https://c34.org/muffler-exhaust-riser-replacement-2015/
No changing the anode has noting to do with the exhaust riser.
It likely failed at the water injection nipple due to heat, acid in the exhaust, and corrosion.
Get it unwrapped and inspect to see the exact situation/condition.
Your choices are stainless one piece, black iron pipe/elbows, or stainless pipe/elbows. Do not use galvanized.
If you don't already, when you replace the riser install a silicone hump hose.
Junaid : The nipple weld that hold it on to the riser has fail - big time!! The cause is probably the STIFF wire reinforced hose from the anti syphon valve had transmitted all of the engine vibrations to that nipple and cause the weld to fail. Replace that hose with a 5/8" nylon reinforced hose - which is flexibly!!
Your boat originally came with a black pipe riser . You need to remove the riser. If it is a stainless riser you MIGHT? be able to have the nipple rewelded IF the riser is in good condition??? Remove the insolation and inspect the riser.!!
A few thoughts
.
I did unwrap some of the white insulation. Looks like there is a hole right above the welded nipple "Y" junction. When I try to move the smaller hose off the nipple the whole thing moves. Rest of the pipe leading from the exhaust flange has rust, but seems intact. Getting the hoses off is proving a lot harder than I thought. The diesel filter and the sink hoses are not helping. Is there some trick to getting the hoses off? The bottom nut on the exhaust flange is also very hard to access and it's not budging despite PB Blaster. The upper two nuts responded well to PB Blaster. I am beginning to think it might be time to get a mechanic ...
Quote from: junaido on September 25, 2023, 02:29:06 PM
The bottom nut on the exhaust flange is also very hard to access and it's not budging despite PB Blaster.
Did you read the link in my reply #1?
I did read the article. Sounds like it's a 2 person job. As far as I can tell, one person holds a wrench on the bottom nut. The wrench is on the port side, and then second person tries to budge the wrench with a downward hammer blow / 2nd wrench . Does that sound right? Also I have only 12 point box wrenches, is that going to be a problem?
You need to soak all with Kroil oil or similar for DAYS, first. Then possibly use some heat.
Might be worth looking into an induction bolt heater. Harbor freight sells a budget version. This would likely work better than a torch.
Alex: is this the type of tool you were thinking of. Looks like it would be pretty handy.
Exactly the one. The benefit is that it heats the bolt and not everything around it. This is both safer and more effective for removing the bolts without breaking them.
Quote from: junaido on September 25, 2023, 05:28:07 PM
I did read the article. Sounds like it's a 2 person job. As far as I can tell, one person holds a wrench on the bottom nut. The wrench is on the port side, and then second person tries to budge the wrench with a downward hammer blow / 2nd wrench . Does that sound right? Also I have only 12 point box wrenches, is that going to be a problem?
I think you understand it quite well. It worked for me. IIRC mine was 12 point, too, but if you're concerned it wouldn't cost too much to get one 6 point for just this job, it'd be worth the small expense.
juni: Get the bolt heater and get the 6pt socket. The 12pt sockets guarantee that with a tough bolt you WILL round the edges!! :cry4`
A thought
I don't see any induction heater bolt-buster gizmos for less than $170 online. Local Harbor Freight people have no idea what an induction heater is, and they don't carry it. Six point offset box wrenches are also pretty rare, based on my visits to several local hardware/automotive stores. Is there any reason why a heat gun should not be used on the exhaust flange nut?
If you can't find an induction bolt heater, you could always try this technique. :abd:
https://youtu.be/ywaTX-nLm6Y?si=eRW1QR7Ci3c1eYxV
That 170 dollar price point vs breaking off a bolt in the manifold or lighting something on fire with a torch seems pretty inexpensive to me. Sometimes it costs money to get a job done even when it is a DIY job.
Quote from: waughoo on October 08, 2023, 10:13:02 PM
That 170 dollar price point vs breaking off a bolt in the manifold or lighting something on fire with a torch seems pretty inexpensive to me. Sometimes it costs money to get a job done even when it is a DIY job.
Sounds like it might be a use it and eBay or Craigslist it situation.
Been there before!
Well the riser is off. The recalcitrant bottom nut finally yielded to a L handle wrench coupled with a 6 point 9/16 socket. This L-handle is narrow enough to fit on the socket. Breaker bars and conventional ratcheting socket wrenches don't fit on the bottom nut due to the narrow clearance of the exhaust riser. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07XY1HJJ8?psc=1&ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_ct_4RMK52ARYZQYYGTZHXKZ
When I say the nut yielded -- it went down fighting. The stud came out with the nut still attached. My question is, can you just screw this back into the engine side when the new exhaust riser is ready to install? Or get a hex bolt of same thread as the stud engine side and appropriate length? What is the advantage of this stud/nut arrangement? The studs are $27 at Catalina Direct. https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-38/engine/exhaust-system/exhaust-flange-studs-and-nuts-universal-3-hole-flange/
Thanks,
Junaid
***Correction I was thinking of the exhaust manifold studs, which are metric x Imperial.
Mcmaster probably has the studs if you want to hunt something cheaper.
The studs are metric x imperial thread UNC x UNF. Why they didn't just use single thread studs is obvious - they're a little harder to find so they can charge 3x the cost.
I suppose you could use a metric bolt if you can fit it in there.
I'd **guess** the reason they use studs is, if the bolt seizes and snaps off, you're screewed. Presumably a frozen nut could be split or a slit ground in it? to get it off a stud, then the stud replaced if necessary.
Quote from: junaido on October 15, 2023, 09:55:36 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The stud came out with the nut still attached. My question is, can you just screw this back into the engine side when the new exhaust riser is ready to install? Or get a hex bolt of same thread as the stud engine side and appropriate length? What is the advantage of this stud/nut arrangement? The studs are $27 at Catalina Direct. https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-38/engine/exhaust-system/exhaust-flange-studs-and-nuts-universal-3-hole-flange/
Thanks,
Junaid
I'd get the stud. The very last thing you want to be dealing with to replace the flange and ever remove a nut again is a bolt, especially with the tight clearances.
You could get a stud for next to nothing from a Kubota dealer. The tech wiki has an M25 engine manual for tractors with all the parts #s. I use Kubota regularly for this stuff. Put some blue locktite on the inside threads.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on October 15, 2023, 02:18:18 PM
Quote from: junaido on October 15, 2023, 09:55:36 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The stud came out with the nut still attached. My question is, can you just screw this back into the engine side when the new exhaust riser is ready to install? Or get a hex bolt of same thread as the stud engine side and appropriate length? What is the advantage of this stud/nut arrangement? The studs are $27 at Catalina Direct. https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-38/engine/exhaust-system/exhaust-flange-studs-and-nuts-universal-3-hole-flange/
Thanks,
Junaid
I'd get the stud. The very last thing you want to be dealing with to replace the flange and ever remove a nut again is a bolt, especially with the tight clearances.
You could get a stud for next to nothing from a Kubota dealer. The tech wiki has an M25 engine manual for tractors with all the parts #s. I use Kubota regularly for this stuff. Put some blue locktite on the inside threads.
I am happy to get the stud from Kubota. How does one screw the stud into the engine ?
Double nut it to screw it in?
Quote from: Noah on October 15, 2023, 02:40:10 PM
Double nut it to screw it in?
Thanks, I just googled it. That will solve the stud installation.
Thanks!
Quote from: Stu Jackson on October 15, 2023, 02:18:18 PM
You could get a stud for next to nothing from a Kubota dealer.
The exhaust manifold is a Universal part, not Kubota. So it's not a Kb part.
CD gives you the stud thread size so, again, McMaster might have them.
IIWMB I'd run a bottoming tap in and set it with locktite as Stu said.
Make SURE the exhaust gasket isn't put on backwards, that will ruin your boating day.
T
Junaido,
As Ken says (in different words) chasing the threads is likely a good idea. The bottoming tap is a special tap for cutting threads all the way to the bottom of a drilled hole. If you go that route, make SURE to get a bottoming tap (not a regular one). What might be a better solution is a thread chaser. A chaser is yet another tool that will straighten the existing threads without cutting new ones. This will avoid damaging the threads that are already there. Sometimes running a tap in an already cut set of threads can damage them by cutting new ones.
***
in different words
***
Yeah, in confusing ones, as well. In re-reading those not-so-clear words, I didn't mean to locktite the tap in place!! :shock: :shock: Thx Alex!
Unless all the studs were pristine looking I'd replace them, but that's just my overkilling things.
Junaido : You might just want to pull the engine (mentioned in another post - to replace the Xmission) to replace that stud!! It will make access MUCH easier!
A thought
Here's another reason to NOT use a bolt:
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/sheered-bolts-exhaust-flange-280511.html
Shearing the head off a bolt seems harder to repair than cutting off a nut and clamping what's left of a stud. But maybe that's just me... :shock:
I went to the local plumbing store, the guy has various black iron nipples, elbows and a tee for about $50. I was thinking about maybe getting a short section of flexible hose and/or an adaptor to connect the water into this T. Is there any reason why the angled "Y" connection is a must-have for the water injection? Or will a "T" work OK ?
Thanks,
Junaid
I have seen a few Ts used for just that purpose on the internet and one in person: a friend bought a used M25 to replace his Atomic 4 in his Pearson 30; he put it on a dolly in garage to get it all set up and serviced before he put it in his boat...awesome, and that's what he used. All he did was thread a short piece of smaller pipe into the end of the T, to have the OD of that nipple to mate with the ID of the 5/8" HX output hose from the vented loop, ask your plumber friend how to do that. First time I ever saw it but have seen others online. Functionally see no reason it shouldn't work on our boats.
A few years ago I saw a nipple section of pipe offered for sale online. Maybe Westerbeke, don't think it was CD. You could look to see if it's still around - just a nipple into a short pipe section, but I don't know if the pipe was threaded at the top end.
Good luck.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on October 17, 2023, 08:43:26 PM
A few years ago I saw a nipple section of pipe offered for sale online. Maybe Westerbeke, don't think it was CD. You could look to see if it's still around - just a nipple into a short pipe section, but I don't know if the pipe was threaded at the top end.
Good luck.
I think this might be the Westerbeke part, https://www.westerbeke.com/Product/NIPPLE/299693. I will probably go with the T unless there is some reason to use this part.
As far as H2O the Wye is intended so that it's injected down so that exhaust pressure doesn't tend to push it "up" but tee will work. The limitation is the length of the nopple+tee+nipple— it makes it difficult if not impossible to get the hump hose on (on me boat I could NOT use it; your mileage may vary.
The tee could be welded to the ell and eliminate the nipple if length is an issue for your muffler.
Here's Moyer's:
https://moyermarine.com/product/inline-cooling-water-exhaust-entry-fitting-exht_01-1_324/
The one difference is apparently the seawater hose size but I'd think you could make it work.
If using pipe, I recommend nothing except Schedule 80 or stainless Sch 40 (never galvanized.)
See SteveD's article:
https://groups.io/g/Catalina30/wiki/12551
My only suggestion would be to get a "street" 90 for that T so you can have the hose pointing down towards the tee fitting. Not sure it is really necessary, but seems to me the way to orient it.
Alex, there really is no need for a street elbow because by the time the water gets through the elbow it's going horizontally anyway and the elbow is just causing more pressure drop. As an engineer, I believe it is probably not what you'd want.
I knew it!!! :clap The 101 Topics that I built has the link to the nipple:
Westerbeke Nipple Source https://www.westerbeke.com/Product/NIPPLE/299693
juna : The "T" should work just fine!!.
I see the both you and Stu have the same URL for the Westerbeke Nipple!!! :clap
A thought
True Stu... I suppose it just appeals to the artistry of layout. That westerbeke nipple really is the bee's knees. I'd buy that if I was doing my elbow out of black iron pipe.
Has anyone confirmed what size seawater hose is the Wb injection wye?
Quote
a "street" 90 for that T so you can have the hose pointing down towards the tee fitting.
***
the elbow is just causing more pressure drop.
It would depend on how the hose runs from the vented loop. An ell isn't about a fair entry into the tee, it's about making a fair hose run back to the loop.
In my case (C30; yes I realize the 34 is different) it is directly above the muffler so a long sweeping bend in the hose is counterproductive. If the hose run can be made fair to the vented loop vis aʼ vie gentle bends of the hose then that's prolly easiest to do that.
Either way, the flow is low for the size hose/fittings so any additional back pressure due to an ell will be insignificant because the velocity is so low (head loss is proportional to V; a 90 is equivalent to adding 12" of additional hose, or 6" if it's a sweep 90.)
A fabricated wye (for 5/8" hose) is best, it addresses
1) injecting the flow in the correct orientation.
2) orienting the hose in the correct direction
3) the excessive length of a nipple/tee/pipe length and installing the hump hose.)
Both CTY and Wb have already thought this thru, why experiment to prove the obvious for the sake of a few boat bucks?
Ken : The exhaust hose from the vented loop is directly above the exhaust riser - so the hose goes straight down to the nipple. There could be a slight 90 degree bend in the hose the a "T" nipple.
You could go to an auto parts store and find a short 90 degree 5/8" molded hose and attach it to the nipple!!
A thought
Here are some views of how it is all arranged under the head sink. I made the hand drawn diagram well before digital cameras. :D
from Catalina Yachts and a photo
Stu,
Thanks for the diagram and pic, I saw this hump hose on Amazon, seems like it would work? https://a.co/d/7yyALPo or https://www.ebay.com/itm/175392097964
Also that crinkly alum-silica heat shield, what is a good place to get that? Or can I just double wrap the upper section with the heat wrap?
Junaid
Stu : Thanks for showcasing my hump hose and new muffler!! Note the leather protection under the hose clamps - just to make sure they cannot cut into the soft hump hose!!
juna: Don't know where you can get that crinkly heat shield, but a double wrap of heat wrap will work just fine!!
A few thoughts
I ordered the water nipple from Westerbeke, it doesn't appear to be stainless steel, but hopefully more resistant to corrosion than the black iron tee I was thinking of using. The exhaust flange gaskets are also available at Westerbeke. Part #: 298600 https://www.westerbeke.com/Product/GASKET/298600
What kind of thread sealant (if any) should I put on the various joints of nipples/elbows in the exhaust riser? Highest temp thread sealants seem to go to 400F. Over at the Moyer Marine forum there is some discussion that suggests that black iron will eventually rust and seal without any pipe dope.
https://www.catalinadirect.com/shop-by-boat/catalina-350/engine/exhaust-system/high-temp-anti-seize-compound/?SearchResults=1
This is what I used.
Guys : I went to Noah's site and saw the price of a stainless riser and almost fainted!! Inflation WOW!!!
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on November 01, 2023, 03:11:39 PM
Guys : I went to Noah's site and saw the price of a stainless riser and almost fainted!! Inflation WOW!!!
Yeah, $600 for a stainless pipe is too rich for my taste. Compared to $60 for black iron at the plumbing store. The original lasted 40 years.
After putting in the new exhaust riser I have run into a new issue. The muffler appears to be leaking from the bottom. While replacing the old inlet hose with the hump hose, I noticed the muffler seemed full of water all the way to the top of inlet hose barb. However, after starting the engine I noticed no water out of exhaust and a ton of water/exhaust coming from under the muffler. It is possible that the guy helping put the hump hose put so much force that he damaged the muffler.
Is it possible to rebuild this muffler should I start shopping for a replacement? Can one just connect the inlet and outlet hoses together and just bypass the muffler? Maybe put a valve or a rise in the junction to prevent backflow into engine?
Video of the current situation. Notice the new orange hump hose with gorilla tape padding for clamps. The Westerbeke water injection nipple is also visible. https://youtube.com/shorts/E_RPegUhlkY?si=dlSuN-VMDn5m-X-j
Leak appears to be coming from the aft side of muffler. https://youtube.com/shorts/hhm_ImLz6BY?si=pUoLya4ZAzleliVL
The oem aqualift was not constructed to today's standard and is notorious for:
- Crushed inlet and outlet tubes
- Leaks developing in the seam where the bottom is afixed to the top.
I "fixed" mine 2x (seam) before replacing it with a stainless can muffler.
Had I completely separated the two halves I'm confident I could have permanently fixed the seam. I had reinforced a partially crushed inlet with a piece of aluminum tubing that I had hanging around that was a press-fit into the tube. Not great using aluminum but I would have eventually replaced it with s/s tubing.
There's an article I posted on the TechWiki showing a C30 owner who repaired his aqualift.
The new muffler from CD is a quality item, built by Centek.
No, you can't simply hook the hoses together - you need a waterLIFT muffler.
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 11, 2023, 11:02:50 PM
I "fixed" mine 2x (seam) before replacing it with a stainless can muffler.
Where did you find the stainless can muffler? Thanks.
Quote from: junaido on November 12, 2023, 12:09:37 AM
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 11, 2023, 11:02:50 PM
I "fixed" mine 2x (seam) before replacing it with a stainless can muffler.
Where did you find the stainless can muffler? Thanks.
It was a salvage from another boat - a marina I was visiting at the time had it in its yard. Probably was a CS-36 which used that particular 6" muffler on a Westerbeke W30. The volume is considerably less but it has worked fine for my setup.
I think the C34 has a considerable vertical distance on the exhaust hose so IIWMB, I'd hesitate using one that small. Other than than backflow volume it would work identically to the oem muffler.
See the wiki Engine>Exhaust for Bill Shreeves' article and his Centek 8x8 muffler that AFAIK still works fine.
The new Aqualift replacement is probably the best choice but is available only through CD. $$$$ 2x what it should cost.
You could ask Centek for a quote on a custom size but it would need to be different enough from the CD version otherwise they'll just tell you contact CD.
Jun : You own the leaking muffler, I'd try to patch it before buying a new one!!
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on November 12, 2023, 12:56:30 PM
Jun : You own the leaking muffler, I'd try to patch it before buying a new one!!
I am definitely in favor of repairing the one I have. Getting that thing out from under the sink is going to be tough...
Quote from: junaido on November 12, 2023, 01:58:53 PM
Quote from: Ron Hill on November 12, 2023, 12:56:30 PM
Jun : You own the leaking muffler, I'd try to patch it before buying a new one!!
I am definitely in favor of repairing the one I have. Getting that thing out from under the sink is going to be tough...
I know there's post about getting it out - not as difficult as it appears but then it's not my fingers, knuckles, bandages, and Neosporin.
I'm thinking that I'd start with a Dremel and cutoff wheel to cut through the seam.
juna : I took my muffler out thru the aft cabin!! Just disconnect the in/out hoses and remove the 4 lag bolts. Then remove the muffler off the wooden pedestal and lift it out!! Simple as that!!
A thought
There is a new aqualift top-out, side-in cylindrical muffler for sale near me for cheap. It is 2" vs 1-5/8" hose dia, and the height is 11", diameter is 10". The volume of this muffler is about the same as the old rectangular muffler (12"x12"x6.75") and somewhat less than the volume of the new CD cylindrical muffler (14" dia, 7.5" high, $900). Can I just replace the old rectangular top-in, top-out with this guy and use some kind of step-down fitting on the hoses?
Centek makes nice fiberglass adapters.
I don't know the particulars of a C34, but if I recall correctly from Bill's project wouldn't there be a height limitation?
Wouldn't getting an adapter plus the injection wye plus hump hose to fit be an issue?
Is it a Centek brand waterlift?
Quote from: KWKloeber on November 13, 2023, 02:31:06 PM
Centek makes nice fiberglass adapters.
I don't know the particulars of a C34, but if I recall correctly from Bill's project wouldn't there be a height limitation?
Wouldn't getting an adapter plus the injection wye plus hump hose to fit be an issue?
Is it a Centek brand waterlift?
It's Aqualift brand. The inlet is on the side so hopefully there would be enough room to connect the inlet to the water injection Y. Not sure about the outlet clearance on the top .
Aqualift is no longer made. If it's "new" and round you're looking at Northern Lights or Centek.
Hmmm... I'd see if it would work to glass in 1-5/8" vernatube inside the 2" tubes. That would be simpler than using hose adapters. Or if there's a 1-5/8" x ?? adapter that would fit (glass onto) the outside of 2" stubs.
Understand that because it's a side-in, the volume isn't the entire container like your current top-in or CD's.
Also, unless you install it rotated as Bill did, when heeled it will dump right out the inlet.
I would remove the old one and see if you can fix it by "glassing it up." If not doable, then I would buy the redesigned round one from Catalina Direct—if it is significantly cheaper than the square one (which has no price or availability listed).
Juna : I'm with Noah, it's easy to glass or epoxy the underside seam of you Aqualift muffler. Just make sure that the inside doesn't have any obstructions. The inlet should be short(on the inside) and the outlet is longer on the inside.
A few thoughts
Mufflers 101 - What's in Your Muffler?
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6728.0.html
In the ongoing saga of the exhaust system, I have disconnected all the hoses/screws and am ready to pull the muffler out of the aft berth. Unfortunately, it is a tight fit due to the bladder water tank and the hose from the PSS shaft seal vent tube. Is it OK to disconnect the PSS vent tube temporarily to get the muffler out , or will it start gushing sea water into the boat?
NO! Take the muffler out from under the head sink, NOT the aft cabin hole.
See my Feb 2016 tech note.
Juna : Do as Stu suggests- All you have to do is remove the 2 water supply hoses, drain hose and the entire door + frame. I've removed my old muffler that way!! :thumb:
a thought
I didn't even have to take the door off. Please read my tech note.
It looks like a lot of work to get it out from the head sink compared to disconnecting one PSS vent tube and then easing it out from the aft cabin. I have a large Dahl fuel filter mounted under the sink as well as a snakes' nest of hoses and through-hulls under the sink. Seems like there are two schools of thought on the muffler extraction. The link below with pics is the aft cabin method. I think Ron also got it out through the aft cabin ?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/catalina34enthusiasts/permalink/1276666863111769/
Junaid
To directly answer the question you asked, yes removing the vent tube from the dripless will allow water into the boat. If you were ready with a cap of some kind, you wouldn't loose much water into the bilge.
Quote from: junaido on February 11, 2024, 02:04:44 PMI think Ron also got it out through the aft cabin ?
Junaid
Yes, he did. But,, please pretty please read my tech note. I quoted Ron's article and showed with pictures the difficulty I had doing it that way.
I wrote:
Many of the removal articles suggest removing the muffler from the aft cabin hole. So I did. It was a BEAST to do. When the old muffler is moved off its plywood pad and pulled amidships to the area behind the engine, the muffler ports stick up and barely clear the fiberglass lip of the cockpit sole down below. The wiring harness wires are even lower and are very difficult to reach to lift up to clear the ports. After the muffler comes past those obstructions, it is necessary to turn (yank!) it 90 degrees clockwise to get it to come far enough aft to get to the "hole" because of the way the hull is shaped compared to the underside of the aft cabin fiberglass. I strongly urge you to never even bother. If your ports are too long, you will never get it out that way and will waste a lot of time & energy. We learned just how easy it is to replace the new muffler through the head door, which we never bothered to remove. Take the old muffler out through the head door!!! When installing the new muffler have the ports face midships, tilt it in and down and then flat and back over the plywood base. It's that easy.
juna : You have to decide which way the muffler comes out, because the MKII M35BC muffler has the ports on it's side not the top like the MK I !!
A thought
Quote from: Ron Hill on February 12, 2024, 02:32:09 PMjuna : You have to decide which way the muffler comes out, because the MKII M35BC muffler has the ports on it's side not the top like the MK I !!
A thought
Ron, he has hull #105, a Mark I boat. Alex has the M35 and provided his assistance.
Juna : You decide which way is easiest way for you to remove your muffler - disregard my M35BC comment!!
A few thoughts
Muffler is finally out. It felt like midwifing a Great Dane puppy out of a Dachshund, but it did come out the aft berth after executing a 90 degree clockwise turn. The muffler bottom seam on the port and aft sides is clearly separated. The starboard and fore sides are intact. The inlet/outlet tubes on top don't appear too bad. Plywood base seems reasonably solid. My question is, what is the best way to fix this separation? I have some marine-tex, JB Weld, two-syringe marine epoxy sold in hardware stores, old West System 105 epoxy/206 hardener (both over 10 years old), some fiberglass cloth. Also, a tube of six ten thickened epoxy (that can be applied with a caulk gun). I am open to whatever gets the job done. I looked through this forum, most of the discussion seems to be about the inlet/outlet tubes. One guy in Australia posted about fixing a hairline crack in the bottom. Would appreciate hearing from anyone who has done the seam repair.
Junaid
Toss the 10-year-old West System 105 and hardener. I would clean and grind prep surface, then use the 6/10 thickened epoxy (unless it is old) PLUS cover seam with (new) 105 epoxy and 205 hardener— with some fiberglass cloth/cloth tape over seam. If 6/10 is old, toss it too and use some West 406 filler into crack instead,then go over with cloth and 105 epoxy.
Quote from: junaido on February 24, 2024, 11:13:35 AMMuffler is finally out. It felt like midwifing a Great Dane puppy out of a Dachshund, but it did come out the aft berth after executing a 90 degree clockwise turn. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Junaid,
Of course it was a PITA doing it that way. Posts #1 and 65-70 discussed this. I'm happy that you got it out, but am amazed that you bothered to do it the hard way after all the input you received. How are you planning to put it back?
Rant: Many of us have spent many years with our boats and have built up a reasonable level of experience. Some of us have actually documented that experience by writing detailed photographic essays of the work they have accomplished. In addition, many of us follow this forum and are willing to reiterate that experience and help others to the source of that documentation. In this case, I provided you with my writeup in the very first post in your thread here, and we discussed it further in posts #65-70, and I even went the further mile and copied the removal part of my tech note for you. I also provided lots of information with sketches, Catalina Yacht documents and photographs in this very thread. We are trying to have you avoid reinventing the bloody wheel, which is what this website is all about. I'm not your mother and I'm not mad at you for not taking my advice, but it sure galls me when we've made some serious experienced recommendations that appear to have gone completely by you, because you say "
It felt like midwifing a Great Dane puppy out of a Dachshund...", which is a really great line BTW! :D I tried to help you avoid this entirely. I'm sorry you didn't bother. I'll suggest to you to re-read my recommendations, because when you put it back through the head door you'll wonder why you did it the hard way to get it out. [
Rant over]
I'm the guy who came up with the phrase "Your boat, your choice" but in this case, you just chose the harder option. Good luck with the rest of the work.
IIRC, Ken Kloeber offered great information on fixing your muffler in post #49, as did Noah just above.
Stu,
I did try the sink route but couldn't even get the sink hoses off. After spending considerable time trying to do laparoscopic surgery through the head sink door, this was the path of least resistance for me. I guess I will reevaluate the options when the time comes to put the muffler back.
Quote from: junaido on February 25, 2024, 09:48:27 AMStu,
I did try the sink route but couldn't even get the sink hoses off. After spending considerable time trying to do laparoscopic surgery through the head sink door, this was the path of least resistance for me. I guess I will reevaluate the options when the time comes to put the muffler back.
That's helpful info, and the kind that you may have asked first to avoid your Dauschund fun & games. I understand, but then again I don't. In post #40 I posted a photo of under the head sink (photo courtesy of Ron). What part of the sink hose could you not get off? All I had to do was remove the two hose clamps below the white blob thingies, nothing more was needed for access to the muffler (in my case for replacement but what I recommended for removal, too). Am I missing something?
Quote from: Stu Jackson on February 25, 2024, 10:55:59 AMWhat part of the sink hose could you not get off? All I had to do was remove the two hose clamps below the white blob thingies, nothing more was needed for access to the muffler (in my case for replacement but what I recommended for removal, too). Am I missing something?
I undid the hose clamp on the sink hose, but despite all tugging and yanking the hose did not come off the faucet barb (is that what you are calling the "white blob thingy"?). Maybe I suck at getting hoses off, but this dissuaded me from exploring that route any further. I think I mentioned the large glass-bowl fuel filter that is also mounted under the sink. I suspect it will block the muffler coming out that route as well even if I manage to get the sink hoses off. There are very few one-size-fits-all solutions in these boats.
Tip: use a heat gun or hair dryer on vinyl hoses to facilitate easier on/off.
Quote from: junaido on February 25, 2024, 11:36:29 AMI undid the hose clamp on the sink hose, but despite all tugging and yanking the hose did not come off the faucet barb (is that what you are calling the "white blob thingy"?). Maybe I suck at getting hoses off, but this dissuaded me from exploring that route any further. I think I mentioned the large glass-bowl fuel filter that is also mounted under the sink. I suspect it will block the muffler coming out that route as well even if I manage to get the sink hoses off. There are very few one-size-fits-all solutions in these boats.
Tugging and yanking on a hose on a barb will NEVER do anything. That's why the barb is there: in case the clamp fails the hose stays there.
In addition to Noah's ideas, what I do is simply slice a bit of the hose and it will come right off. Unless you have absolutely NO extra hose, cutting 1/2" to 1" off a hose is not a big deal.
I also suggest asking before, unless you were at the boat for the "Dachshund removal day." :D
Removed the muffler this winter on our 1988 c34. The inlet hose would not come off so I started cutting it with an oscillator tool. The vibration broke the tube loose before I cut through. To remove the outlet hose I used large channel locks to GENTLY grab and twist the hose and break it loose. Since the engine is out so I could get the transmission rebuilt, all the wires and hoses were loose and the muffler slid inboard without much trouble. (Pulled it from the aft cabin) If the wires and hoses had been connected to the engine there wouldn't have been enough slack to clear the inlet/outlet tubes on the top of the muffler. Things are tight back there.
Since some have had the fiberglass inlet tube break, and I have everything apart, I pulled the muffler to add a fillet to the inlet & outlet tubes. Now it's time to get a warm day and start putting everything back together.
Ron, thank you for your knowledge, yes, the engine had to be pulled to remove the transmission. With the engine in the galley everything came apart quick and easy.
1) Early boats have no room to pull the transmission back from the engine. (It might work if you cut a lot of fiberglass)
2) The transmission is bolted to the bellhousing from the inside. A lot to undo on this job.
juna : I've found that a Heat Gun onboard is a great tool or as Stu mentioned (if you have some extra hose length) just take a utility knife and make a 1/2" cut and a twist to get a barbed hose off.
Phyl : Not too sure what Universal was thinking?? when they made the attaching bolts from the bell housing to the transmission from the INSIDE!! A least the M25 XPB and the M35 BC engines that bolt is accessible from the Outside!!
A few thoughts