I am close to buying a 1987 catalina 34 and the only issue with it from the survey is heavy steering, from stop to stop. The boat is on the hard abd th surveyor didn't give me any clues as to what that could be.
I visited the boat today with the seller and we tried to troubleshoot. For the seller it's not heavy because it's been this way since he bought it 3 years ago. But indeed it's a bit heavy, and it feels there is some friction somewhere.
We removed the compass and the chain looks ok, lubricated. We looked at the sheaves and cable from the aft berth and they look good.
We then saw a fiberglass tube coming down from the emergency tiller head down to the quadrant and it looks like that tube is touching the quadrant. What is that tube? Should it be touching it? If it should be away from the quadrant how do I fix it?
Thanks!!!
Is it a radial wheel or a quadrant?
Moving it, is it tight if there is some slack in the cables? (ie, a tight rudder stock? (eg, possible bent shaft?) vs tight steering hardware?
"what" tube? Everyone has to have a gazillion pixel camera in their pocket at all times, right?
Gusc : The stainless tube has to be attached to the cable wheel. I assume that this hull has a wing keel??
Has the boat a new elliptical rudder or the old OEM rudder??
Have you looked at the rudder packing gland?
A few thoughts
Here is a picture of it.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9axil0fw7g0cgwq/20210308_144437.jpg?dl=0
Not sure what's going on there but the fiberglass tube sticking down onto the quadrant head looks a bit odd. For your reference here's a shot of ours when I had the aft cabin torn apart. As you can see, the rudder post doesn't have that tube sticking down. I'd definitely investigate this issue further.
Actually....that's not the pic I thought i was going to post and in that shot it looks like the tube is there.
Hi Ron, thank you! Yes, the keel is wing, and the rudder is the original.
My hunch so far points to the compression bearing, as in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtFBbP_iP8k
Does that sounds like a possibility?
Quote from: Ron Hill on March 08, 2021, 02:34:58 PM
Gusc : The stainless tube has to be attached to the cable wheel. I assume that this hull has a wing keel??
Has the boat a new elliptical rudder or the old OEM rudder??
Have you looked at the rudder packing gland?
A few thoughts
Hi Eric, thank you!
It looks like your fiberglass tube over the quadrant is also touching it, right?
Quote from: ewengstrom on March 09, 2021, 03:36:41 AM
Not sure what's going on there but the fiberglass tube sticking down onto the quadrant head looks a bit odd. For your reference here's a shot of ours when I had the aft cabin torn apart. As you can see, the rudder post doesn't have that tube sticking down. I'd definitely investigate this issue further.
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 08, 2021, 01:04:25 PM
Is it a radial wheel or a quadrant?
Thank you! I have been saying it wrong all along - it is a radial wheel.
Quote from: Ron Hill on March 08, 2021, 02:34:58 PM
Have you looked at the rudder packing gland?
Ron, no, I am not sure how to look at that. I am trying to find a diagram of the whole system, but haven't been lucky. Edson has a nice diagram of their parts, but the other pieces of the rudder system I am not so clear how they work.
This might help:
https://www.c34.org/faq-pages/techdata-rudder-packing-gland.html
Try loosening the cables at the eye bolts and slipping them off the quadrant. That will let you test the rudder and the binnacle separately. Use the emergency tiller to move the rudder. Try the emergency tiller before you start so you have a baseline for the amount of force required.
Quote from: Stu Jackson on March 09, 2021, 07:57:12 AM
This might help:
https://www.c34.org/faq-pages/techdata-rudder-packing-gland.html
Stu, thank you so much. This helps having a little clearer idea of how it works, but I am not there 100% yet. :) (I don't have a boat to compare the drawing to what I actually see, so I have to go by memory and the few pictures I took) :)
How would the packing glad affect my symptom of having extra friction somewhere causing heavier than normal rudder movement?
Thanks!
Mates
I had a (sounds identical) hard steering issue that I discovered/corrected. But before I go down a rabbit hole I want to ensure I'm picturing this correctly. Is this the yr/model with a high emergency tiller (ie, lazarette) or cockpit sole tiller plate?
Quote from: KWKloeber on March 09, 2021, 09:33:14 AM
Mates
I had a (sounds identical) hard steering issue that I discovered/corrected. But before I go down a rabbit hole I want to ensure I'm picturing this correctly. Is this the yr/model with a high emergency tiller (ie, lazarette) or cockpit sole tiller plate?
(edited)
This is a wing keel, with emergency tiller head
on the cockpit sole in an indentation in the fiberglass aft lazarette behind the wheel.
A friend pointed me to this similar problem, on the C36 forum: https://www.catalina36.org/comment/38642?fbclid=IwAR1VdBTtfaZqhLNbW1k9GAfuhrbQYx8MLAUU5ETs6O7rIA7hqYyzAlfFa4M
To save you time, the author appears to solve the problem just by pouring a little lubricant oil down the rudder shaft, through the rudder packing gland... Do you see any negative side to trying this with something like PB Blaster or WD40?
Thanks!
Gusc- something does NOT sound "right" in your boat description. Your original post said it was a 1987. However, your post this AM you said it had a an "emergency tiller head on cockpit sole." The two don't match. 1987 MkI boats tiller heads are above the sole incorporated into the helm seat fiberglass structure. Possibly just semantics but...
Quote from: Noah on March 09, 2021, 10:26:41 AM
Gusc- something does NOT sound "right" in your boat description. Your original post said it was a 1987. However, your post this AM you said it had a an "emergency tiller head on cockpit sole." The two don't match. 1987 MkI boats tiller heads are above the sole incorporated into the helm seat fiberglass structure. Possibly just semantics but...
Noah, you are absolutely right, and I apologize for the confusion. I was going by memory and got confused. Yes, the head sits in a little indentation in the fiberglass, not directly on the sole.
This is what it looks like: https://www.catalinadirect.com/images/products/1009/K1598_S02_1430_lg.jpg
Gusc
If you zoon into your pic I believe that you'll see that the f'glass tube is not hitting the radial wheel. :clap :clap I can see the bottom of the tube and the rudder stock extending from it, to (and below of) the radial wheel. There's maybe 1/2"?? between the tube and wheel.
background - My 30 mk-I isn't exactly identical steering to the 34 mk-I but has the same concept.
The tubes are glassed-in as one piece, from lazarette to the hull, then a section cut away to accept the steering. It isn't perfect and no two are identical (being done by hand/manually by precision-minded techs -- your tube was not cut exactly square (perpendicular) to the stock but it doesn't affect anything.)
Actual unretouched pic of the factory :shock:.
(https://c34.org/bbs/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9123.0;attach=6054;image)
The top and bottom tubes carry the horizontal thrust of the rudder stock (there are nylon thrust washers that carry the vertical loads.) The f'glass tubes can eventually wear (the stock gets sloppy/loose/wobbly)and that can be repaired (I did mine.)
I had my steering get tight during a passage in heavy/running seas (I had previously refurbed my steering slop so I concluded that the tubes were not the issue.)
I crawled in and accessed the steering guts -- and found that the packing gland casting had worked its way up from its original seating in the lower tube. The CTY fix that Stu posted shows gooping it back into place. Instead, I "temporarily" rubed together a few hose clamps around the very top of the tube, and snugged the tube tight onto the casting. I first had to tweak the location of the packing gland to eliminate the stiff steering. Once the Admiral said the wheel was as free as before, I tightened up the hose clamps. That was 20 yrs ago ("temporarily".)
I wouldn't haphazardly pour stuff down the tube before isolating the cause. Undo the three bolts to loosen the gland on the stock and see if that improves the situation... In troubleshooting (especially on a boat) it's way better to isolate the root cause instead of throwing solutions against the wall. A temporary fix might not permanently fix the problem, or the issue might coincidentally/temporarily disappear (or a blind fix could mask something more serious that could bite harder later on.) Loosen/remove the cable if necessary.
I believe he does not (yet) own the boat and was searching for the possible cause and how to fix as part of his due diligence before making an offer. I may be wrong. My two cents is it would not be a deal-breaker for me, however, I would consider insisting the owner "fix" as part of the deal. Stiff steering may be a subjective issue as well, if you don't have another C34 to compare it to. Question: was/is the boat and survey out of the water, so one could move the rudder from below? I also like the idea of checking rudder rotation without cables attached as well. Good luck.
Noah and everyone who contributed to my knowledge here: thank you so much!!
I learned a ton, and, fortunately don't have to put it to use now because the seller found the issue and resolved it for me. He called Catalina and they gave him a couple of leads.
He propped up the rudder, removed the emergency tiller head and saw that the washer under it had a groove dug into it. He flipped the washer, so the smooth end turned down, reattached the head, and the whole system moves with his pinky.
I am thankful for 2 things: 1) the issue was simple, 2) the seller spent several hours fixing little things found in the survey including this sticky steering thing.
I am on my way to owning my first keelboat! :clap
Congratulations! Glad things worked out and welcome aboard!
Huzzah!!!
Gusc : Here is some more advice.
I took a second nylon washer and installed it over the first. That will keep your rudder from moving vertically in heavy weather. If the 2nd washer is too thick when you reassemble, put it on a belt sander and take off some surface. You might have to pry up the whole rudder from the bottom, but it is well worth the effort!!
I'm surprised that the emergency tiller cap came off so easily on a 1987 C34! Just make sure that you keep the inside of that aluminum tiller cap greased so it doesn't corrode on to the stainless column.
A few thoughts