I don't have a windlass, but hope to get one in the not too distant future. This could be as long as 3 to 5 years out, and possibly longer. I plan to get a Mantus 35lb and would likely anchor in 25 to 35' depths for my cruising grounds. I'd like to get as MUCH chain length as possible but without a windlass, I'm concerned about physically lifting the weight. Does anyone without a windlass have more than 35 or so feet of chain?
Hi Alex
How old are you and how's your back. :)
Seriously, a big part of the equation is the chain you're going to use. I have 1/4" G43 which strength-wise seems to be a good fit for our 34s. It's also only .75 lbs/foot. I do have a windlass but I've had to pull 80 ft by hand (33# Rocna) from 25 ft depth and it wasn't bad. I just went slow. I'm assuming you have someone else driving up on the anchor while you're pulling.
I'm not terribly old but not young by most's measure. My concern is hauling up the dead weight from a depth because i put TOO much chain on (and was a bit deep). I would likely have crew aboard most times to assist with driving while i hauled.
I'm in the same situation as I'm upgrading my anchor and don't have a windlass. Here are my thoughts:
* I'm upgrading from a 22# Bruce to 35# Mantus. The difference is 13# or about 1.5 gallons of milk.
* I have about 30' of chain and am considering upgrading to 50' of chain (15# more). The length of chain makes a difference only if I anchor in >30' of water.
* Worst case, I'm pulling up 28#'s more which is about 3.25 gallons of milk (minus any buoyancy from the water) and that decreases as I pull chain in.
* I'll probably have help on board if I have problems pulling it up. If not I can use a winch to help.
Hope this helps!
Yes... a very helpful analysis. Thanks for your thoughts.
I found that I could pull up 30 feet of chain plus a 35lb anchor, until we anchored in some sticky mud. Then the weight of the tackle made it impossible (without a winch) to pull the anchor out of the mud. I went back to a smaller anchor and less chain, and more careful choice of anchorages, until we install a windlass.
I've always thought the boat's supposed to break the anchor out, not the windlass.
Quote from: ErikN on January 27, 2021, 09:04:20 AM
I found that I could pull up 30 feet of chain plus a 35lb anchor, until we anchored in some sticky mud. Then the weight of the tackle made it impossible (without a winch) to pull the anchor out of the mud.
Use the boat to pull the anchor out of the mud, not your back! Pull rode until straight down, then use the boat's motor to free. Much easier.
Have you read the Anchoring 101 Topics threads?
Jeff Tancock added a windlass to this late 80s boat just last year.
I do not have a windlass, and doubt that I'll get one. I have 50 feet of 1/4" chain with a Rocna 10 (22#). I limit my anchoring to around 20 feet depths, which admittedly limits where I (can and do) go to anchor. I have deliberately limited my cruising to the Southern Gulf Islands and the San Juans. I will most likely not go further.
I have no trouble hand weighing my system. My selection criteria of my anchoring system is covered in the 101 Topics in Anchor System Sizing.
If you're going to buy new chain, then size it for the windlass you are going to get in the future. And read Steve Dolling's system description, too.
We're not getting any younger so the windlass moved way up on my priority list. I blatantly copied Ron Hill's most excellent install explained in detail elsewhere on this forum. No looking back at all, it works great with 100' of 1/4" HT chain and our Rocna 15.
Alex :Before I installed a windless, I used 30ft of 1/4" HT chain and a 15 lb (mushroom anchor) sent down the 20" of nylon rode.
A thought
Ron... i had forgotten about that work around. That weight has a name. Do you or anyone else know what it is called?
Stu,
Yes, i did read the anchoring 101 and saw your set up listed in there. I'm starting to think 50' is about all the chain i can stand to have on a hand haul anchor with my planned anchor. I do plan to try and pick my chain to match the windlass. I will likely get more chain when i have a windlass. The reason it is a bit down the list right now is that I have so many other pressing repairs overlooked maintenance on this boat that i have to atart getting selective about what i do and don't install/upgrade.
QuoteThat weight has a name. Do you or anyone else know what it is called?
Off the top of my head I think its called a catenary weight.
Jim
That weight is called a "kellet". And it is almost as controversial and eyer-raising a subject as what anchor size/type to select, whether to use silicone sealant, and..... :abd:
Quote from: Noah on January 27, 2021, 07:39:12 PM
That weight is called a "kellet". And it is almost as controversial and eyer-raising a subject as what anchor size/type to select, whether to use silicone sealant, and..... :abd:
Silicone only on Beckson ports. That one's easy! :D
I wrote this to a friend on the C36 forum years ago:
Kellet SentinelJuly 21, 2011
Original Question:
I had another experience that I thought others might benefit from.
A couple of weekends ago, we anchored off of China Camp in the North Bay of SF Bay. Anybody who's been in this area will know that the current really rips through here. We had motored to the beach at the time that the tide changed, so we weren't on the boat when it swung. Somehow it got caught up against the rode, so that when we got back on the boat the rode was running from the bow down the (port) side of the boat to the stern.
I tried to pull it free but the current was too strong. I tried to pull the stern of the boat around with my dinghy but couldn't do that as I only have a 2hp outboard. I was afraid to motor around as I didn't know how close the line passed to the prop. I tried sailing off, but that didn't work either.
I figured that we could just leave it as is and wait until the tide shifted again. So I stretched out in the hammock I'd stretched out from the mast to the forestay. Nice and relaxing, bouncing on the waves.
After a half hour, though, I suddenly noticed that the movement of the hammock had suddenly changed. On sitting up I saw that we were dragging anchor. I tried releasing the anchor rode, but I couldn't.
On we drifted, down towards the other boats. It was a really helpless feeling as we passed one boat after another. Then a guy in a dinghy with a larger outboard came up and offered help. We tied a line from our stern to his dinghy and he was able to pull our stern around to the point where we could drift free of the line and I started up our motor, pulled our anchor and re set it.
My two biggest mistakes: (1) I should have thought of running my spare anchor out and trying to kedge us around and even if I hadn't been able to, at least I'd have had a second anchor; (2) I should have tied a buouy to my line and had a knife ready to cut the rode in case we started dragging anchor.
Anyway, lessons learned. Maybe this experience will help somebody else in a similar fix.
Reply:
Good lesson learned. I always use a sentinel when I anchor up there. The sentinel is NOT used to keep the anchor down, but rather to keep the rode down when the boat swings. Unless it's blowing like stink when the wind shifts, it works. I've had keel wraps up there myself, before I started using the sentinel, although I've always had lots of rode out since there's so much room. I guess I was fortunate enough not to have dragged, but the motion really s*cks. Our sentinel is an 8# mushroom anchor on its own separate rode, connected with a carabiner. Most folks recommend the heftier 15# model, but ours has worked for the past 13 years.
[added] The trick with the sentinel is that when the current reverses there is usually (I say usually) little pull on the rode, so the sentinel drops the rode below the keel as the boat swings (unless it's blowing like stink when the current reverses).
Anchor normally. Attach carabiner to the shackle at the top of the sentinel and another rode to the sentinel shackle, keeping the carbiner free to move. Clip the carabiner to the main anchor rode. Drop the sentinel with its own separate rode and slide it down the anchor rode, about the depth of the water, not much more (figure high water, it'll either sit in the mud at low water - good with a mushroom sentinel anyway, or keep the rode down at higher water). Tie off the sentinel rode to one of your bow cleats. I do it off the port side, don't use the second anchor roller for the sentinel. I keep the sentinel, it's shackle, the carabiner and its own rode in the port locker. The rode is only about twenty to twenty five feet long, 3/8" 3 strand. Our anchor rode is 1/2". The carabiner is there to have a big enough opening to slide down the anchor rode, a shackle itself is too small. Makes it much easier to set and retrieve also.
Question:
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying this:
You leave out about the amount of rode on the sentinel as the water depth at high tide. You clip the caribiner to the end of the anchor and around the rode of the main anchor line. In other words, the end of the sentinel is right along the end of the main anchor line and allowed to, in effect, slide up and down that rode by virtue of the fact that the carebiner is around the anchor line.)
As I'm visualizing it, this will in effect keep the anchor rode going more vertically straight down to the bottom and then horizontal along the bottom.
Reply:
Anchor normally. Then add the sentinel via carabiner to the rode off the bow. When the wind picks up, the sentinel will rise, but (hopefully, and based on my experiences at China Camp) when the currents reverse, the sentinel will drop down again and keep your rode from fouling your keel.
Guys : I used a sentinel for thousands of anchoring and never had a problem. I also used an anchor ball attached to the head of the 35lb Bruce. That ball did get wrapped around the keel ONCE and that was the last time I used that ball!!!
The mushroom sentinel worked great. When I finally installed a windless I went to 50ft of chain and no longer needed the sentinel, but did keep it onboard.
Once in the Dismal Swamp I used just the mushroom (no wind and no current) We had to wait for a lock time (to open) and I didn't know what was on the bottom?? So used the mushroom on a 1/4" line just to keep the boat in the same narrow place! Didn't want to snag the Bruce or Danforth. If the mushroom got snagged so-what, just cut the line!!
A few thoughts
I am 82 years old. Pleiades is a 1990 C34 (No. 1068) that does NOT have a windlass. Her ground tackle includes 50 ft. of 5/16" galvanized chain, 200 ft. of 5/8" diameter, nylon tri-braid, and a 25 lb. Mantus Anchor. Nancy and I have anchored literally hundreds of times from Long Island to Maine, including Narragansett Bay, Cuttyhunk, Tarpaulin Cove, Kettle Cove, Menemsha, Edgartown, Nantucket and many, many other harbors. We have anchored in sand, gravel, mud and weed. We have NEVER dragged anchor.
Our standard technique to weigh anchor is as follows: (1) I position myself seated on deck just aft of the anchor locker, with my feet in the locker, Nancy very slowly powers forward as I haul in the rode, dropping it into the locker. (2) When we get to the chain I grab about 18", and pull it up mostly with my legs, and somewhat with my back --- NOT using my arms very much except to hold the chain. (3) I continue this process until I can feel a substantial increase in force. At this point I signal for Nancy to slowly move forward to enable "break-out". (4) Once "break-out has occurred I am then lifting roughly 20 ft. of 5/8" chain at about 1 lb./ft. --- or about 20 lbs. --- plus the weight of the Mantus anchor, or another 25 lbs., for a total of 45 lbs. (5) using mostly my legs and back even at 82 I can still manage 45 lbs. When I can no longer manage to pull up 45 lbs., perhaps it will be time to sell our beloved Pleiades!
Paul Jacobs, Warwick, Rhode Island.
Paul,
This is the real world experience i've been hoping for. Thanks for taking the time to explain your setup and how you weigh anchor. It is extremely helpful.
This is essentially identical to the procedure that my wife and I use, only we tried it first with a 35lb anchor and 3/8" chain. When we used the engine to pull out the anchor, it scooped a massive ball of mud--it felt like twice the weight--which quickly pulled the anchor back to the bottom before I could lift it an inch. Then I had to resort to the winch. Since going back to lighter tackle, we haven't had a problem. The C34 is our first "big" boat, i.e., one with an inboard engine, and we are still working on our technique...
Paul & Erik : I used to do the same thing, but it is so much easier to use the windless on the 50' of chain. While the windless is pulling it up to clean off that chain with my anchor washer (home made bilge pump) squirting water. That way you can make sure everything is cleaned off and the chain in falling in place!!
Then I use a couple of quarts of fresh water sprinkled over the chain to get most of the salt water off immediately (saves the galvanize coating).
A few thoughts
Sorry if I'm being unclear--I'm really just seconding Paul's setup, based on my negative experience with heavier tackle (and without a windlass). My general thinking is that "the heaviest tackle you can handle" might become unmanageable in less than perfect conditions. However, I probably provided some entertainment for other folks in the anchorage that morning.
Quote from: ErikN on January 31, 2021, 05:42:30 AM
However, I probably provided some entertainment for other folks in the anchorage that morning.
2nd to the hard to manage in less than ideal conditions, your above comment was on my mind when thinking about heavy hardware.
Quote from: waughoo on January 31, 2021, 09:05:02 AM
2nd to the hard to manage in less than ideal conditions, your above comment was on my mind when thinking about heavy hardware.
Heavy hardware? I sure hope you've read the Anchoring Systems 101 Topic. I had a batch of 3/8" chain for a month or so and used it. Then I learned better.
I just swapped-out my perfectly good (and expensive) 3/8 chain for 5/16. When I bought the boat I thought bigger was better. Not anymore. 5/16 chain and 5/8 8-plait rode are my current/preferred set-up. I plan to switch out my existing rope only windlass for a new Maxwell VW10-8 as soon as I can find $1,800. It is built to take 5/16. Any takers for the 50ft. 3/8? :cry4` 8)
I am glad my comments were helpful. Since the thread has evolved to "heavier ground tackle" a few additional comments might also be helpful
Regarding rode, chain, swivels and anchors: I am a quasi-retired physicist (fancy words that mean I still do significant consulting, but at 82 I no longer work full time, and can sail whenever possible) so the following calculations were straightforward for me. The minimum windage on a C34 (viz. including the exposed hull, mast, standing rigging, and with the hull pointed directly into the wind, but assuming the mainsail is secured on the boom and covered, and the genoa / jib is furled tightly on the headstay - is given by the simple expression Dmin =(Vw/4)^2, where Dmin is the MINIMUM drag force on an anchor (or mooring!) - in pounds - and Vw is the wind velocity in knots. The MAXIMUM drag force, when the hull is temporarily slewed 30 degrees to the wind, is Dmax = (Vw /3)^2. Obviously, we are concerned with the WORST CASE scenario. Thus, for a wind speed = 12 knots (some whitecaps visible), the maximum drag force on a C34 will still be only (12/3)^2 = 16 lbs.! Thus, as long as we are weighing anchor and there are no whitecaps visible, even at my age I can easily pull in all the rode, and lift the chain to the point of "break out". If we are in sand or gravel I can often "break out" the anchor with my legs. If we are anchored in mud, then I secure the chain running through the C34 bow roller, with one loop around a bow cleat, and Nancy powers forward slowly until we indeed "break out" after which, as noted earlier I am lifting only about 45 lbs., which frankly is good exercise. (2) even at 30 knots the maximum force is only about 100 lbs. This is FAR below the safe working limit of 5/8" diameter nylon, or 5/16" chain, both of which exceed 1000 lbs. Clearly, at 75 knots (a category 1 Hurricane!) the maximum force is about 625 lbs. Finally, at 120 knots (a category 3 hurricane!!!), when the wind force would far exceed that of any current, so one can revert to the "non-slewing" "minimum drag" equation, the drag force on an anchor - or a mooring - is just about 1000 lbs! Our Mantus 25 lb. spade anchor has actually held, in a sand bottom off Kettle Cove in the Elizabeth Islands, enduring a documented 72 knot "micro-burst" for about 5 minutes.
I specifically, and carefully, selected 5/8" diameter nylon tri-braid rode for three reasons: Safe working load > 1000 lbs., relatively light weight, and substantial elastic energy absorption which minimizes shock loads on the anchor during wind gusts. I selected 5/16" galvanized chain as the lightest chain that still had > 1000 lbs. safe working load, and I also selected 50 ft. chain length to assure a very good catenary at 7:1 scope, a nearly horizontal pull angle on the anchor, as well as protection from chafe / abrasion due to sharp rocks should there be any on the bottom, and not so much weight as to cause Pleiades to go "bow-down" when sailing. I selected a 25 lb. Mantus, based on numerous real-honest-to-goodness tests (NOT commercials) in sand, gravel, mud, and grass. Invariably it was either "one of the best", or "THE best" in each type of bottom! Also the 25 lb. Mantus had a higher holding strength than the 35 lb. version of almost all other anchors! Again, I could handle 45 pounds manually. If the total weight gets much greater than that things begin to become a struggle, and I do not want to struggle on the foredeck. Note that I did not mention any swivel. I have heard too many horror stories down through the last 50 years about swivel failures. Presumably they guard against twist. Why? Chain is very flexible. Rode is pretty flexible. We have NEVER had a problem with the rode or chain twisting to the point where it affects the anchor. One, proper "long splice" from the nylon tri-braid onto the last link of chain, which took about 20 minutes a dozen years ago is incredibly strong, allows the rode and chain to easily pass through the C34 bow roller, and has "worked like a charm" all these years.
Guys : Paul thanks for the math on chain /anchoring!!
I've never heard of anyone with 1/4" Hi tensile strength chain breaking a link!! :shock: That's one of the many reasons that I like it. Also the weight is much less than the 5/16" chain - when you are looking at 50ft lengths!
In my anchor split locker beside the 200' of braid rode & 50' of 1/4" HT chain on braid for my primary anchor (35lb Bruce) I also have 30' of 1/4" HT chain and 200' of braid on braid rode for a 1800 deepset Danforth ready to go!!
The 1/4"HT chain weight does not weigh down the bow. Like I said, I have never heard of a link breaking on 1/4" HT chain!!
Those of you without a windless and anchoring by hand might consider 1/4" HT chain. I did that for years and it's easy to handle!! :clap
A few thoughts
Like most things boat there isn't one number, so FWIW -
1/4" G4 (grade 43) HT galvanized chain weights .75 - .79 lbs per foot
5/16" G4 (grade 43) HT galvanized chain weighs 1.04 - 1.1 lbs per foot
Eximius has a 25lb West Marine Anchor and 100' of 5/16" chain with 100' of additional rode.
We rarely anchor in depths greater than 12' here in South Florida and the Bahamas.
I see many crew pulling up their boat anchors and my bits shiver when I think of the pain they are self inflicting.
Here's how I retrieve the anchor.
# Open the anchor locker lids and tie them off to the pulpit.
# Pull in the chain by hand, moving the boat forwards if there is any strain on the snubber. And wrap the chain around the center bow cleat.
# Remove the Nylon Anchor snubber (which is secure to the anchor chain with a rolling hitched 1/4" Dynema line)
# With the chain still slack, release the chain from the cleat and stand up holding the chain in both hands.
# Reaching forwards with one hand and grasping the chain about a foot in front of my other hand then moving the back hand forwards, so together.
# With the strain now on both hands and arm pretty straight, I lean back, rolling on my heels, pulling about a foot of chain.
# As I lean forwards, I move my hands over to reach the next foot of chain.
# Repeat that action until the chain is up and down with the anchor still dug in to the bottom.
# If the next lean back does not release the anchor from the bottom I cleat the chain and we break the anchor free by moving the boat forwards.
# Once freed from the bottom, I uncleat the chain and continue to pull it up by leaning back for each foot of chain.
This method protects my back and doesn't strain back or arms.
8)
Paul
What is a "West Marine Anchor" ?
Hi Alex,
I don't have a windless and use a Mantus 45lb anchor with 180 ft of 5/16 G4 chain. At 30 feet of depth and 5:1 scope is 150 ft. As Jon stated, 5/16 chain is 1.1lbs per foot. So at the most I will be pulling up 78lbs in the last 30 feet when the chain is straight up and down. The first 120 ft I am only lifting 33lbs. I have Cyndi power the boat forward as I pull in the chain she goes into neutral when I have about half the chain on the boat. Once the chain is up and down I wrap the chain around the bow cleat and Cyndi puts the boat in gear to pry the anchor out of the bottom. I use gloves with the plastic bumps on the palm side. This helps when the last bit of chain is caked with mud. I have also used my bare hands which is ok for a sand bottom. I leave the anchor at the water line to wash the mud off before I pull it up into the roller. We anchored in 30 feet quite a bit while out cruising and it was not a big deal for me, but I don't have a bad back. And at 60 I am still able to do it. In twenty years I may be looking for a windless.
Quote from: pablosgirl on February 21, 2021, 07:42:56 PM
And at 60 I am still able to do it. In twenty years I may be looking for a windless.
Thanks for your input. Thats rather impressive! 78lbs is not insignificant.
Guys : I always use the boat to break out the anchor and didn't install a windless until I hit 80.
Haven't gone up the mast for the past few years - only because I haven't needed to!
A few thoughts
Quote from: Noah on February 12, 2021, 01:28:30 PM
What is a "West Marine Anchor" ?
It's a '25lb West Marine Premium Anchor' :santa I know.
It was on sale at West Marine for about $64 get it out of the store sale.
Turns out it's a pretty good anchor. We regularly anchor in a muddy bay (Sunrise Bay Fort Lauderdale Florida) and our old anchor often pulled out, this one has not let us drag once, yet!